Gymnastic news #22 - Tokyo or bust

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skatfan

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I’m pretty certain Forster made an announcement last year that Jade wasn’t being considered for a team spot now she had her own.
Jade has been training like mad AA and I’m not sure if it’s because she wants to change his mind or because she is dreaming of an AA final / podium in Tokyo - all power to her either way.
Jade is definitely interested in being on the team, which has an excellent chance at team gold. Depending on when the int’l federation requires her to commit to the nominative spot, she can try for US team.
 

bardtoob

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She’s coming off double elbow surgery in March. She hasn’t had the time needed to recover her skills. Maybe she can shoot for Worlds in the fall.

Morgan is 19. Mmmm . . . maybe she already went pro. I don't really know.
 

millyskate

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Jade is definitely interested in being on the team, which has an excellent chance at team gold. Depending on when the int’l federation requires her to commit to the nominative spot, she can try for US team.
I know that nothing in the Olympic rule book prevents it. I just recall the Forster statement, which was pretty extensively commented in the gym world at the time, clarifying that Jade was not getting considered for a team spot. Whether or not he overturned that later, I do not know.
There might be as @Theatregirl1122 mentioned a USAG rule which prevents him from excluding her if she finishes top two AA at trials though.

ETA: USAG did backtrack on that statement.
She is being considered for the team.
 
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bardtoob

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For those who really know, is day one of the 2021 US WAG Championships the equivalent of a splat-fest?
 

Coco

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They are saying she would be considered for the team, but would they actually do it?

Based on the FIG's qualification procedures, there were 3 opportunities for most countries to earn a maximum 2 additional spots:

One way to earn spot(s) for the country to award to a gymnast of their choosing
1) the AA World Cup Series (invitation only to top countries from worlds) - 3 spots available; and

One way to earn a nominative spot awarded to the gymnast who earns the spot
2) Individual Event Final World Cup Series (1 spot per event, 4 total)

One way to earn a nominative spot (if your country didn't qualify) or a non-nominative spot (if your country qualified)
3) Continental Championships (2 spots available)


Once a country has earned their max 2 additional spots, literally - the day they earn that 2nd spot - they can't attempt to earn a 3rd, even as a backup should something go wrong with a gymnast who earned a nominative spot.

Due to *********, the AA World Cup Series was cancelled in February 2021 and the 3 spots were awarded to China, US and Russia on the basis of those countries finishing 1-3 at the 2019 World Championships.

Due to *********, the order of the specific events comprising AA World Cup Series, Continental Championships and the EF World Cup Series was altered. For example, without *********, the EF World Cup Series would have been completed prior to the Continental Championships.

However, the FIG has stuck with the original order in which these events would have happened for the basis of awarding the the EF World Cup spots and determining whether or not a country was eligible to attempt to earn a spot at a Continental Championship.

Jade has built up an insurmountable lead on Vault in the EF World Cup Series. So when the EF World Cup Series is over after the Doha World Cup (in 3 weeks), she is deemed as having earned that spot prior to Pan Ams (happening now), which are the Continental Championships where the US could have attempted to earn a 2nd non-nominative spot.

So....if Jade had NOT earned her EF World Cup Series nominative spot, the US could have earned a non-nominative spot at Pan Ams.

This means that if Jade is placed on the team, the US will only send 5 not 6 to Tokyo. So someone else who could have been an Olympian will not get to be because Jade blocked the US from earning a usable 6th spot at Pan Ams.

Scandal ensues!
 

Coco

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For those who really know, is day one of the 2021 US WAG Championships the equivalent of a splat-fest?

Fairly close to it. They are using the Olympic equipment, which they are unfamiliar with. I think this has accounted for the issues on UB but doesn't explain issues on Beam or FX.
 

skatfan

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This means that if Jade is placed on the team, the US will only send 5 not 6 to Tokyo. So someone else who could have been an Olympian will not get to be because Jade blocked the US from earning a usable 6th spot at Pan Ams.

Scandal ensues!
Not really. This is very much like the Michelle Kwan should retire so others can go to Worlds. (Not exactly of course but similar reasoning.) The way to qualify for the US team is to beat your competition.

Two years ago Jade was known for FX and vault which is why she went to the specialist position, and she qualified for it. With the ********* she has worked her tush off to improve on the other two events and be an all around gymnast that can beat a lot of the other women. If she does well, she deserves to be on team.
 

honey

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I was listening to the small recap GymCastic put up this morning, and in Jessica’s view, Jade did not take questions from the media yesterday because she was “traumatized” by what happened at the media summit couple weeks ago when it became clear she was trying for the team on top of having already secured her own spot. It seems like reporters started to press Jade on it a bit, with the media being a bit :eek: about it.

Who knows the real reason Jade didn’t take questions from the media last night, but (and of course JMO), if that’s the reason, then I feel like she needs to own her decisions and deal with it. She’s made a choice to try to have it both ways. It’s totally within the rules, but it was still a choice.
 

Theatregirl1122

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Jade has every right to try for both. USAG doesn’t have to give it to her.

it’s very much not similar to saying that Michelle Kwan should retire so somebody else gets to go to the Olympics. Michelle Kwan going to the Olympics doesn’t reduce the total number of US athletes who get to go to the Olympics that year. Jade making the team does.

Jade had the option to do what she did, but by securing her spot, she took the US OUT OF THE RUNNING for a second non-nominative spot. So her spot was earned at the expense of other US gymnasts. It’s not unreasonable for the US to say okay, you took qualification into your own hands and got a spot only you can use so you are 100% guaranteed to go, but we’re not going to sacrifice another girl’s chances to go to the Olympics just so you can compete with the team.

Jade made her choice. And she made the choice for the whole US team. Why should she expect USAG to give up an Olympic spot to get her on the team when they don’t need her to win gold?
 

bardtoob

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Jade didn't know she was going to be good enough to fill a non-nominative spot when she earned it via the World Cup. It was a choice she made years ago.

The US is actually lucky that Jade kept her ability after so much time. Gymnasts usually have a much smaller peak window.
 

alexikeguchi

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Before this whole convoluted qualification process was started for the 2020 Olympics, there were five team members. After Tokyo, the team will once again have five members. If Jade makes the actual four member team, five US gymnasts will compete this summer as well. Can the US team win without Jade? Of course, but they will win without Kayla DiCello or Grace McCallum as well. Is Jade the best #4? Probably not, so it's a moot point. If she turns out to be, though, I don't think she should be denied a spot just so the sixth best gymnast can call herself an Olympian. I don't think it's at all fair to blame Jade for trying the route she did and that was open to everyone else. Blame FIG and the IOC for the ridiculous process they put in place.
 

Coco

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Guys - it's not like "Michelle Kwan should retire and let someone else use the spot" because if Jade doesn't use her nominative spot it evaporates! It only served to block the US from earning a spot that could have been awarded at Trials.

I used to think that it was Jade's to use or discard, but that was before I realized that by earning that spot, Jade blocked the US from the other avenue to earn the 6th spot.

ETA: @alexikeguchi It wouldn't be the "6th best gymnast" though, it would most likely be someone who is top 3 in the country on a specific event and could earn a medal at the Olympics, like Skinner (vault) or McCusker (UB).

Also, due to the crud, there will effectively be no traveling alternates. So Gymnasts #5 and #6 are effectively serving as the team's alternates.

Is this a good time to point out that Team USA has had someone either withdraw or compete on a broken leg bone in 5 of the last 6 Olympic Games?

Another ETA: I don't blame Jade for going her route. I think it's fantastic that gymnasts from powerful federations can bypass their federation and earn a nominative spot to the Games. But doing so blocks your country from earning another spot, so if you don't use it, you screwed someone over.
 
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asdf334

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I don't think it's at all fair to blame Jade for trying the route she did and that was open to everyone else. Blame FIG and the IOC for the ridiculous process they put in place.

IIRC, USAG put rules in place that limited who could try to qualify for an individual spot the way Jade did, so no the route she took was definitely not open to everyone else.

USAG was also stupid to not simply put a provision in the procedures that say that somebody in Jade's position can be excluded for consideration from the 4-person team. If they had done that, problem solved.
 

danafan

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Carey, despite being fourth in the AA after day one, is not in the top 6 on any apparatus. And she’s almost two points behind second place. It’s very unlikely she’s going to get second AA at trials (to get an automatic berth) and also unlikely she’s going to get picked to be on the four person with those stats.
I know she can do more on vault and floor but I don’t see upgrades making a difference.
 

skatfan

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Carey, despite being fourth in the AA after day one, is not in the top 6 on any apparatus. And she’s almost two points behind second place. It’s very unlikely she’s going to get second AA at trials (to get an automatic berth) and also unlikely she’s going to get picked to be on the four person with those stats.
I know she can do more on vault and floor but I don’t see upgrades making a difference.
Jade hasn’t put her big skills in on Day 1. She could easily place second in both vault and FX and do ok in the other two. How that all shakes out may be as you say, or not.

Ao to the argument that she screwed the USAG out of a spot if she makes the team, let’s remember that any other top gymnast could have gone this specialist route and did not.
 

danafan

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Ao to the argument that she screwed the USAG out of a spot if she makes the team, let’s remember that any other top gymnast could have gone this specialist route and did not.

This is false. The way the rules were written, you had to be a current national team member who was an individual event world/olympic medalist or a national champion on an event to be eligible. So only Carey, Hurd, and I think Smith would have been allowed to pursue this qualification route. It was not open to any gymnast.

ETA McCusker might have been eligible too based on being national champion on bars in 2017 but she became ineligible (as did Hurd) after being on the 2018 world team that qualified the US to the Olympics.
 

Theatregirl1122

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Jade hasn’t put her big skills in on Day 1. She could easily place second in both vault and FX and do ok in the other two. How that all shakes out may be as you say, or not.

Ao to the argument that she screwed the USAG out of a spot if she makes the team, let’s remember that any other top gymnast could have gone this specialist route and did not.

That doesn’t change the fact that Jade spot takes one away from any other USA gymnast. It’s not a question of blame. It’s just the truth. By earning her spot, Jade made it so one of the 6 possible US spots had her name on it. Why should she get to take up two because she doesn’t like the one she got?
 

skatfan

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That doesn’t change the fact that Jade spot takes one away from any other USA gymnast. It’s not a question of blame. It’s just the truth. By earning her spot, Jade made it so one of the 6 possible US spots had her name on it. Why should she get to take up two because she doesn’t like the one she got?
Why not, if she out competes the others? Everyone else had the same chance to do the same thing she did. No one else need say poor so-and-so gets left behind.
 

beckab81

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Why not, if she out competes the others? Everyone else had the same chance to do the same thing she did. No one else need say poor so-and-so gets left behind.
Not everyone had the chance to go the specialist rote, the USAG severely limited who could do it.

If the goal of the USAG/olympic committee is to get as many medals as possible, it makes sense to send 6 gymnasts, not 5. The only way they can take 6 is for Carey to use her spot, and not be part of the team.
 

skatfan

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Not everyone had the chance to go the specialist rote, the USAG severely limited who could do it.

If the goal of the USAG/olympic committee is to get as many medals as possible, it makes sense to send 6 gymnasts, not 5. The only way they can take 6 is for Carey to use her spot, and not be part of the team.
Except that the no more than two from the same country rule will apply to Jade as well as the members of the team. It’s not like she can be a third USA gymnast in any of the finals as I understand it. The USA Will have to choose between Jade and another gymnast for the apparatus finals and all-round (unlikely for Jade).
 

just tuned in

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Except that the no more than two from the same country rule will apply to Jade as well as the members of the team. It’s not like she can be a third USA gymnast in any of the finals as I understand it. The USA Will have to choose between Jade and another gymnast for the apparatus finals and all-round (unlikely for Jade).
It is an f-ed up system and no one wins.
 

Theatregirl1122

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Why not, if she out competes the others? Everyone else had the same chance to do the same thing she did. No one else need say poor so-and-so gets left behind.

It has been detailed multiple times in this thread that basically no one had the chance to do what Jade did. Essentially only Jade. (Maybe Riley but she was clearly not in shape to do that at that time with everything going on in her life.) And if Jade had not done this, we'd still have 6 spots, none of them would have her name on it. So one spot has her name on it which wouldn't if she hadn't qualified for a nominative spot. She did. She secured her place. But now that's her place. Why is that controversial?

We're talking about one gymnast taking up two spots at no benefit to the US team? Why would the US want that? What is the value?
 

skatfan

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We're talking about one gymnast taking up two spots at no benefit to the US team? Why would the US want that? What is the value?
Oh I don’t think they want it. But they have to let her try because there’s no rule preventing it. I think she didn’t plan on it initially to be honest. Having a pretty sure team gold is tempting if one qualifies. I give her shot less than 50 percent.

And I’ve pointed out that 5 vs 6 gymnasts is unlikely to affect the medal count for the US. Maybe I’m wrong about that?
 

ryanj07

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I think this is my first time watching U.S. men’s gymnastics all quad and I miss my eye candy Jake Dalton lol.

Sam is the only one of the guys competing that I really recognize and he’s never really been one of my favorites.
 
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