Gender "critical" vs. Gender-affirming? (the thread for all things about gender politics)

bladesofgorey

Well-Known Member
Messages
812
The first was that the focus on trans issues after marriage equality was won was going to be difficult for progressives politically. Because marriage equality didn’t require the vast majority of people to rethink their concept of what a man or woman is, it was a much bigger leap. The polling then and now bears that out. It wasn’t ordinary people who started the public conversation about individual medical and treatment decisions, it was a concerted activist movement that made it central to public discourse.
Throwing people's humanity and rights under the bus because it doesn't poll well is really something. I am aware it's done and it's shameful, it's not "realistic" or being rational or whatever. It's being cold and calculating and willing to let the least powerful people be collateral damage.

"Ordinary people". wow. Who are "ordinary people". Are they the same as "normal people"? The "concentrated activist movement" is made up of trans people and those that care deeply about the issue because they care about human rights and/or have friends and family who might be trans. The othering is also really something else here.
The second was that the extreme rhetoric of a minority of activists, many of whom are not trans themselves, was going to endanger the community. People reluctant to identify their pronouns shouldn’t be clapped back as transphobes; lesbians who don’t want to have sex with transwomen shouldn’t be terrorised online, and so on. Most of all, introducing children to the concept of gender fluidity at a young age in school settings engendered a terrible backlash.
Sorry, this is made up BS. The whole "transwomen mad that straight and people won't have sex with them" was a frigging 4chan OP. Sorry you got taken by it, most people not already primed to believe it didn't. Children being introduced to the concept of gender fluidity "engendered a terrible backlash". What do you mean by that exactly- the full sentence? How and where and when was "gender fluidity" being taught, and at what ages? Was the fact that some families have two moms or two dads also being taught and met with the same level of outrage by the same players? Is this all manufactured outrage? (yes).

I got hollered at and doxed and didn’t post about this for a long time, but I think I was right. I’m sure I’ll be told again that I’m blaming the victims. I’m not. I’m just being realistic about how social change happens.

I'm sorry you were doxxed, and I'm sorry you still think you were right. I'm also sure you know far better and have far more extensive experience in social and civil rights movements than most people telling you that you are wrong, and that you are the true expert regarding how social change happens, and not all the movement folks with doctorates in this sh!t.
 

bladesofgorey

Well-Known Member
Messages
812
Finally, I think Obama jumped the gun with the bathroom executive order, he was way way ahead of the National understanding of the issue, much less majority support. It was bad politics and it has backfired on the people who it was trying to help. Not every trans person wants to fly a public flag, the premature government intervention just made the backlash from right-wing hate mongers more acceptable to the puzzled and uninformed folks in the middle.
You can't be serious. "Not every trans person wants to fly a public flag". No sh!t, most people in general want to be able to just be who they are. The bathrooms issue was just that- allowing trans people to make the safest choice around which bathroom they felt they could use without risk of bodily harm. The exact opposite of wanting to "fly a public flag".
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
51,563
Not a single feminist has called for violence against transgender people,
Are you for real? Or maybe you don't consider the women of LGB Alliance and all the other TERFs who have said things like all trains people should be murdered to be feminists? Because that's the only way your statement can be true.

The first was that the focus on trans issues after marriage equality was won was going to be difficult for progressives politically. Because marriage equality didn’t require the vast majority of people to rethink their concept of what a man or woman is, it was a much bigger leap. The polling then and now bears that out. It wasn’t ordinary people who started the public conversation about individual medical and treatment decisions, it was a concerted activist movement that made it central to public discourse.
You say this like there wasn't at one time a big push to not take up the call for marriage equality because there could be backlash.

I got hollered at and doxed and didn’t post about this for a long time, but I think I was right. I’m sure I’ll be told again that I’m blaming the victims. I’m not. I’m just being realistic about how social change happens.
No, you are confused about how social change happened. There are studies about how it happens and it does not involve not fighting for things that the majority of society doesn't agree with and not talking about them. Society doesn't change when people are quiet and don't push.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,981
Are you for real? Or maybe you don't consider the women of LGB Alliance and all the other TERFs who have said things like all trains people should be murdered to be feminists?
Could you give me a direct source to a feminist saying that all -or any- trans people should be murdered?

In fact, please give me a few sources so that I can find out about all these murderous feminists and LGB people.
 
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misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
Messages
22,855
Could you give me a direct source to a feminist saying that all -or any- trans people should be murdered?
Why? You wouldn't accept it if she did. You'd claim it was a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation, or that the news source wasn't credible, or that the person reporting it is trans and therefore making it up...
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
Messages
4,250
Why? You wouldn't accept it if she did. You'd claim it was a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation, or that the news source wasn't credible, or that the person reporting it is trans and therefore making it up...
Then why not give a direct quote to a source for the sake of less cynical FSUers? Anyone can make the claim that "It was a BlanketyBlank that did such-and-such", and not even try to refer to a source. But how is that credible?
 
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allezfred

In A Fake Snowball Fight
Staff member
Messages
63,729
genuine concerns
I don’t know how it is in other English speaking countries, but in Ireland the phrase “genuine concerns” has been used to oppose every social equality movement in my lifetime by the Christian right. The concerns are never genuine. They are bullshit.
the medicalisation of children
What does this even mean? I know you are not arguing that children should never receive medical treatment for illnesses, but that is what you are arguing.

Again I do not know how it is in France or any other country, but the idea that trans children and their parents can pop along to their local gp or hospital and receive treatment is totally removed from reality.
the loss of single-sex spaces
Where do you suggest trans women and trans men go?
women's sport
Same.
the dangers for women in prisons and refuges
The idea that all trans women are a threat to women based on isolated incidents is prejudiced. Trans women are in far more danger from men than trans women are to cis women. Where do you propose trans women (and trans men for that matter) go?
The polling then and now bears that out.
Civil rights should not be decided by polling. End of. These things are never won by minorities being nice and going softly.

I am sorry to see people who I like being played, but you are being played when it comes to this issue.

Trans people want to live their lives in peace. Every single trans person in the world does not have to be completely and utterly virtuous in order for them to be accorded dignity. A trans person did a bad thing once is not an excuse for a prejudice and I cannot believe I have to spell this out in 2022.

Been there done that with being in a minority accused of being predatory and not knowing my own sexuality. Enough. Fight the real enemy.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,424
Look, I’d rather the argument, here and elsewhere, be about the nature of social change, because there is no one here denying that trans people deserve equal rights, respect, appropriate medical care. The issue is how to get there.

In 2015 there weren’t states specifically denying all sorts of rights to trans people, from using the safe bathroom to just being able to define one’s own gender. There sure weren’t laws saying that treating trans children opened their parents up to charges of child abuse! Now there are. Some progress.

What finally won marriage equality is when a majority of Americans realized gay people also fell in love and wanted to get married, that that often included their own family members and that heterosexuals lost nothing by acknowledging that.

Trans rights requires cis people to recognize that they ARE cis people when they thought they were just men and women. That gender identity can be fluid. That something they thought was the original and unquestionable identity (“oh, congrats on your daughter’s baby. Is it a boy or girl?”) is just “assigned at birth.” That the male-appearing person with a beard identifies as female.

Back then I also said it’s really risky for a small minority to try to define itself through asking the majority to change ITS self-perception. It would be suicidal for the two percent of Americans who are Jewish to tell Christians that oh by the way, you got it wrong, you never understood the concept of a messiah properly and you need to redo your theology and basic beliefs.

Anyway, figuring out what went wrong and how to fix it is not a bad thing to do.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
694
In 2015 there weren’t states specifically denying all sorts of rights to trans people, from using the safe bathroom to just being able to define one’s own gender. There sure weren’t laws saying that treating trans children opened their parents up to charges of child abuse! Now there are. Some progress.

Sure there were. Parents of trans kids didn’t file lawsuits saying “hey, please let my kid use the correct bathroom at school even though you’re already doing that.” Trans adults didn’t file lawsuits saying “hey, please don’t fire me for being trans, even though you have never done that.” What was happening was exactly what has happened with other marginalized groups - the right to discriminate against them was so entrenched culturally that no one bothered to write it into law because nobody needed legal grounds to get away with it. Trans people and their allies started challenging all the unwritten challenges and discrimination they faced in everyday life. Now the people who want to discriminate against them are writing laws they didn’t need before, to codify the discrimination. This isn’t even close to a new pattern.

What finally won marriage equality is when a majority of Americans realized gay people also fell in love and wanted to get married, that that often included their own family members and that heterosexuals lost nothing by acknowledging that.

The same people drafting the anti-trans bills are working on same-sex marriage next. You may see those as completely different issues. They do not.

Back then I also said it’s really risky for a small minority to try to define itself through asking the majority to change ITS self-perception. It would be suicidal for the two percent of Americans who are Jewish to tell Christians that oh by the way, you got it wrong, you never understood the concept of a messiah properly and you need to redo your theology and basic beliefs.

But that’s not what’s happening at all. This is the problem with framing someone else’s trans identity as a personal imposition or attack. No one is asking you to change your self-perception or anything else about yourself. Like anyone else, trans people just want you to treat them with respect when they tell you who they are, and to be allowed to live normal, healthy lives without fear of violence. They aren’t asking you to do anything except support their right to exist.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,424
Sure there were. Parents of trans kids didn’t file lawsuits saying “hey, please let my kid use the correct bathroom at school even though you’re already doing that.” Trans adults didn’t file lawsuits saying “hey, please don’t fire me for being trans, even though you have never done that.” What was happening was exactly what has happened with other marginalized groups - the right to discriminate against them was so entrenched culturally that no one bothered to write it into law because nobody needed legal grounds to get away with it. Trans people and their allies started challenging all the unwritten challenges and discrimination they faced in everyday life. Now the people who want to discriminate against them are writing laws they didn’t need before, to codify the discrimination. This isn’t even close to a new pattern.



The same people drafting the anti-trans bills are working on same-sex marriage next. You may see those as completely different issues. They do not.



But that’s not what’s happening at all. This is the problem with framing someone else’s trans identity as a personal imposition or attack. No one is asking you to change your self-perception or anything else about yourself. Like anyone else, trans people just want you to treat them with respect when they tell you who they are, and to be allowed to live normal, healthy lives without fear of violence. They aren’t asking you to do anything except support their right to exist.
At the philosophical level, going back to Judith Butler, the proposition has been grounded in the idea that biological sex is a social construct. Of course that’s not the level that people are generally consciously arguing about, but it’s there.

And I think you’re right that the anti-trans laws codify what was happening absent specific protections for trans rights, but surely that’s a step in the wrong direction?

You are also right that for the right, marriage equality and trans rights are on a continuum (which is true for people on the left as well, in a positive sense.) And yes their opposition is grounded in theocracy and patriarchy and prejudice and the two issues are related. But I think for the people in the middle, they are more distinct issues for reasons I wrote above.

Ok I have to go make the orange flan I promised my relatives. :)
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
694
And I think you’re right that the anti-trans laws codify what was happening absent specific protections for trans rights, but surely that’s a step in the wrong direction?

Of course it is, and that’s why we should oppose those laws.

You are also right that for the right, marriage equality and trans rights are on a continuum (which is true for people on the left as well, in a positive sense.) And yes their opposition is grounded in theocracy and patriarchy and prejudice and the two issues are related. But I think for the people in the middle, they are more distinct issues for reasons I wrote above.

Philosophically they may seem distinct for some people, but legislatively, they’re not. The same laws that are being written to codify discrimination against trans people also contain language that can be used to target the rights of other LGBTQ+ people, women in general, etc. From there, it will just look like a small “common sense” step to the next right they want to infringe upon. The law proposed in Texas to purportedly outlaw drag performance not only sweeps in trans people with its language, but really isn’t that far removed ideologically from the laws that used to allow women to be arrested for wearing pants. These legislators are using trans people as the face of the conversation because they know they can get well-meaning people “in the middle” on their side by making them think these laws are targeting an “other” that they don’t understand. The endgame for them isn’t controlling trans people, it’s controlling everyone.

Ok I have to go make the orange flan I promised my relatives. :)

I’m off to … chop up everything in my refrigerator and form food shapes out of it before the guests arrive. :)
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,424
Of course it is, and that’s why we should oppose those laws.



Philosophically they may seem distinct for some people, but legislatively, they’re not. The same laws that are being written to codify discrimination against trans people also contain language that can be used to target the rights of other LGBTQ+ people, women in general, etc. From there, it will just look like a small “common sense” step to the next right they want to infringe upon. The law proposed in Texas to purportedly outlaw drag performance not only sweeps in trans people with its language, but really isn’t that far removed ideologically from the laws that used to allow women to be arrested for wearing pants. These legislators are using trans people as the face of the conversation because they know they can get well-meaning people “in the middle” on their side by making them think these laws are targeting an “other” that they don’t understand. The endgame for them isn’t controlling trans people, it’s controlling everyone.



I’m off to … chop up everything in my refrigerator and form food shapes out of it before the guests arrive. :)
Have a good one!

ETA: and the point I was making is exactly that trans rights hands the awful people the “face” they need to sway the middle against all sorts of rights. Which doesn’t mean don’t fight for them but rethinking tactics and message might be a good idea.

(My ex-husband complained I always had to have the last word. Like a stopped clock, he was.)
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
18,345
To add insult to injury, the shooter identifies as non-binary, uses the pronouns they/them and wants to be called "Mx Aldrich", according to "their" lawyers. Possibly to wriggle out of a hate crime charge. Why should the justice system continue taking the word of criminals about being transgender?

Because self-identification is exactly what the looney liberal left has been pushing, apparently unaware that it could be used against them? Today I'm going to decide to be a trans Black Jewish woman. Tomorrow I'll be a nonbinary Asian Muslim. Take my word for it. That's essentially what many on the left have been arguing. Maybe the smarter thing to do would be to drop all of these identifiers used to divide society and treat everyone equally.

All I see is trans people asking for the right to exist as themselves in public spaces without being fired, harassed, denied health care or other essential services, etc.

Look closer. I think everyone on this thread would agree with your sentence above. What I think you mean is that is that you see trans people asking to exist as if their sex and gender had always been the same as it is was today, and telling others that we must ignore our own and others' history and biology. That, I don't agree with.

Can I self-declare tomorrow that I want to be a woman and start running in women's marathons? Check boxes that I am a woman and counting toward employers' targets (required or otherwise) about percent of female employees/leaders/whatever? Using a women's restroom despite having a beard and presenting as male? Maybe I don't understand the liberal left's positions accurately, but I don't see what would stop me from doing any of this under many of the proposals presented. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is well-intentioned, but as we see from this "non-binary" Colorado shooter, that is rarely a safe assumption. And people using this to their advantage absolutely screws over others.

Those examples aren’t even minority positions, they’re virtually nonexistent. People are being called transphobes for not respecting other people’s pronouns, or for saying that no lesbian should have sex with a trans woman. Most people in the LGBTQ+ community recognize that there are a lot of reasons someone might be reluctant to share their pronouns (including the fact that it’s not always safe for people to do so) and that nobody should be dictating someone else’s sexual preferences.

Maybe it's the circles I move in, which skew left, but the examples very much resonate with me. I haven't been fired -- yet -- for refusing to list my pronouns in an email signature, but I wouldn't be surprised if that day is coming (and I'll choose to be fired before I do). I've already been excluded from other opportunities for refusal to go along with the liberal orthodoxy, and that's fine with me. Being able to live freely as one's authentic self is a value I support unconditionally, even if the woke mob does not.
 

MichaelK

Well-Known Member
Messages
892
At the philosophical level, going back to Judith Butler, the proposition has been grounded in the idea that biological sex is a social construct. Of course that’s not the level that people are generally consciously arguing about, but it’s there.
Bad science in the humanities exemplified by Judith Butler and her nonsensical theories which are taught as fact to students is part of the answer to your question what went wrong.
 

once_upon

Enough
Messages
24,071
Because self-identification is exactly what the looney liberal left has been pushing, apparently unaware that it could be used against them? Today I'm going to decide to be a trans Black Jewish woman. Tomorrow I'll be a nonbinary Asian Muslim. Take my word for it. That's essentially what many on the left have been arguing. Maybe the smarter thing to do would be to drop all of these identifiers used to divide society and treat everyone equally.



Look closer. I think everyone on this thread would agree with your sentence above. What I think you mean is that is that you see trans people asking to exist as if their sex and gender had always been the same as it is was today, and telling others that we must ignore our own and others' history and biology. That, I don't agree with.

Can I self-declare tomorrow that I want to be a woman and start running in women's marathons? Check boxes that I am a woman and counting toward employers' targets (required or otherwise) about percent of female employees/leaders/whatever? Using a women's restroom despite having a beard and presenting as male? Maybe I don't understand the liberal left's positions accurately, but I don't see what would stop me from doing any of this under many of the proposals presented. There seems to be an assumption that everyone is well-intentioned, but as we see from this "non-binary" Colorado shooter, that is rarely a safe assumption. And people using this to their advantage absolutely screws over others.



Maybe it's the circles I move in, which skew left, but the examples very much resonate with me. I haven't been fired -- yet -- for refusing to list my pronouns in an email signature, but I wouldn't be surprised if that day is coming (and I'll choose to be fired before I do). I've already been excluded from other opportunities for refusal to go along with the liberal orthodoxy, and that's fine with me. Being able to live freely as one's authentic self is a value I support unconditionally, even if the woke mob does not.

Oh come on Louis - even for you, this is ridiculous

Or do you believe the Republican statements that kitty litter boxes are being installed in school so kids can self identify as cats?
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
51,563
Why? You wouldn't accept it if she did. You'd claim it was a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation, or that the news source wasn't credible, or that the person reporting it is trans and therefore making it up...
Which is exactly what happened the others times this came up and examples were given. I'm done humoring this thread's resident sea lion.

Then why not give a direct quote to a source for the sake of less cynical FSUers? Anyone can make the claim that "It was a BlanketyBlank that did such-and-such", and not even try to refer to a source. But how is that credible?
Just read back in the thread. Or watch the video I posted that talks about all the groups and their members and what they say they do and believe vs. what their action show.

And I think you’re right that the anti-trans laws codify what was happening absent specific protections for trans rights, but surely that’s a step in the wrong direction?
It's the normal backlash when people assert a right that wasn't fought for before. It's part of the push and pull that happens when society is changing on a particular topic. These things see the world taking 2 steps forward, 1 step back but overall forward progress until someday everyone just accepts that ... slavery is wrong, gay people are not perverts, interracial marriage is not a big deal, women don't have to get married and have kids to be fulfilled, etc.

It's also something that is happening now on many fronts, not just trans issues because the GOP has decided the only way to stay in power is to promote culture wars. So are we going backwards on abortion, racial, and LQGTQ+ issues because people pushed too much? Of course not. These are fights we thought were won and the majority of the country supports but are at risk because of this GOP strategy.
 

Allskate

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,866
This article discusses last week's shooting and also discusses what I mentioned above about the role of politicians and the people paranoid about drag queens and sexualizing children:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/club...-hate-to-new-level_n_637ff132e4b0e4c775912ac6

As I've said, I've met some of these people and they are totally nuts. Some of them go armed to protests. This one used his gun and killed people.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,981
Are you for real? Or maybe you don't consider the women of LGB Alliance and all the other TERFs who have said things like all trains people should be murdered to be feminists?

You have made an extraordinary allegation and haven't given any examples of feminists or people from the LGB alliance saying that trans people should be murdered. Could you give some sources?
 

MichaelK

Well-Known Member
Messages
892
You have made an extraordinary allegation and haven't given any examples of feminists or people from the LGB alliance saying that trans people should be murdered. Could you give some sources?

I would also appreciate some sources for the alleged calls to violence towards trans people from feminists and the LGB alliance because I am not aware of any.

On the other hand it is easy to find plenty of abuse and threats of trans right activists toward JK Rowling. See for instance:

https://twitter.com/Dataracer117/status/1272737061703790592 (general abuse towards Rowling)

https://twitter.com/Dataracer117/status/1581057890642964480 (insulting Robbie Coltrane ("Hagrid") after his death because he supported JK Rowling)

https://www.rollingstone.com/cultur...-death-threats-salman-rushdie-attack-1396913/ (death threat in the aftermath of the Salman Rushdie attack)

If some crazy person were to murder Rowling would you call the abuse towards her also stochastic terrorism or would that not be so bad because Rowling held the "wrong views"?
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
694
You have made an extraordinary allegation and haven't given any examples of feminists or people from the LGB alliance saying that trans people should be murdered. Could you give some sources?

I’m not aware of her perspective being a mainstream position, but Lily Cade is at least one example. I’m not linking to or quoting the worst of her comments; you’ll find them if you search.

Can I self-declare tomorrow that I want to be a woman and start running in women's marathons? Check boxes that I am a woman and counting toward employers' targets (required or otherwise) about percent of female employees/leaders/whatever? Using a women's restroom despite having a beard and presenting as male?

Absolutely. Go for it. I could not possibly care less.

That’s the thing transphobes don’t seem to be able to grasp. The rest of us don’t share your weird obsession with other people’s genitals. We don’t care which restroom you use. You’re probably not going to win a marathon against cis women who have been seriously training for it, and in a lot of places you could legally be fired from your job, but sure. If you seriously think people pretend to be trans because of how fun it is? Have at it. Since I actually have the common sense to realize that how you choose to present yourself in terms of gender identity is none of my business and doesn’t harm me in the slightest, you go ahead and do whatever you want.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
18,345
I genuinely don’t understand liberal logic here. You and others have spent my lifetime telling me I have male privilege and that we need specific opportunities for women. I actually agree with this.

Now you’re telling me I can walk into the DMV, fill out a form saying I’m a woman (or an X) with no proof required, and walk out five minutes later absolved of 42 years of male privilege. I can be a woman in private and where it benefits me while still retaining all of my male privilege. Ok then!

It really seems to me that the left is out to de-gender society, e.g., the many states where parents can choose whatever gender they wish (or none) for their child at birth. If that’s the aim, then let’s have an honest debate about that, not cloud it in trans issues.
 

Trillian

Well-Known Member
Messages
694
I genuinely don’t understand liberal logic here. You and others have spent my lifetime telling me I have male privilege and that we need specific opportunities for women. I actually agree with this.

Now you’re telling me I can walk into the DMV, fill out a form saying I’m a woman (or an X) with no proof required, and walk out five minutes later absolved of 42 years of male privilege. I can be a woman in private and where it benefits me while still retaining all of my male privilege. Ok then!

It really seems to me that the left is out to de-gender society, e.g., the many states where parents can choose whatever gender they wish (or none) for their child at birth. If that’s the aim, then let’s have an honest debate about that, not cloud it in trans issues.

Where did you get this idea that trans women live these wonderful, unbothered, cis-male-privileged-filled lives until the day they waltz into the DMV to update their driver’s licenses (I’m guessing in your imagination they don’t even have to wait in line?), and then embark on magical new lives where every unique benefit of being a cis woman automatically unrolls before them? Because it certainly wasn’t from listening to actual trans people talk about their experiences.

Trans people don’t have the same experiences as cis people, wherever they are in terms of transitioning. That doesn’t mean they aren’t also harmed by living in a patriarchal society that enforces a rigid gender binary - the harm just takes different forms. As a cis woman, I’m not worried that a cis man is going to transition for the sole purpose of stealing my special women-only promotion at work (or whatever special benefits you think women get on the regular) because I’m not that delusional about why people transition. And I’m certainly not going to throw a tantrum if some other person who is likely more marginalized than I am gets an opportunity that I don’t; I’ll reserve my anger for the people at the top who hoard the rest of the opportunities for themselves. Punching up does a lot more good than punching down.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,563
I’m not aware of her perspective being a mainstream position, but Lily Cade is at least one example.
She was platformed by the BBC for that ridiculous article about how trans people want others to date people they aren't attracted to. That's mainstream enough for me.

And I apologize. She didn't say trans women should be murdered. She said they said they should be lynched. ;)
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,981
I’m not aware of her perspective being a mainstream position, but Lily Cade is at least one example. I’m not linking to or quoting the worst of her comments; you’ll find them if you search.
Hadn't heard of her and when I searched her name a lot of porn sites came up. Apparently she's a porn actress. As you know, radical feminists are against porn. Tried with some other key words and realized she only rants and swears. I think she's the female equivalent of the trans activists that swear at feminists, though she doesn't use graphic images about rape as they do.

Any feminists or people from LGB Alliance?
 
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Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,981
That’s the thing transphobes don’t seem to be able to grasp. The rest of us don’t share your weird obsession with other people’s genitals.

Just to put things into context: let's not pretend that biological sex isn't essential. The majority of the women in the world are oppressed because of what you call a "weird obsession with genitals". They are oppressed because of their sex, not possible gender identity.

Only the most privileged women in the world could believe that single-sex spaces aren't essential for the safety of women and girls.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,981
The idea that all trans women are a threat to women based on isolated incidents is prejudiced.
That's the principle of safeguarding though. Rules are made for the worst case and not the best.

For instance, all men aren't rapists and murderers, but because we can't know which of them are, women's refuges, prisons and safe spaces exclude all of them.

In France it's forbidden for a kindergarten teacher to be alone with a child in the classroom. This doesn't mean that all kindergarten teachers are paedophiles, but that we can't know which of them are, so the rule applies to all of them.


Trans women are in far more danger from men than trans women are to cis women.

That's not what the statistics say, but I don't want to argue this. It's not a competition. All of it is male violence, whoever the victim.

Where do you propose trans women (and trans men for that matter) go?

Trans women can have a special wing in the men's prison. Vulnerable biological women can't be used to shield trans women from other biological males.

You had also mentioned sports. Trans men compete in women's sports which is the correct category for their sex and as far as I can see their competitors are supportive and not a single feminist objects to it. Even when they win. ;) FThis isn't about transphobia, it's about safety and fairness.
 

bladesofgorey

Well-Known Member
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That's not what the statistics say, but I don't want to argue this. It's not a competition. All of it is male violence, whoever the victim.
This is a ridiculous lie. How many transwomen are murdered and/or raped every year compared to how many transwomen are rapists/murderers? This lie is so outrageous I'm actually awestruck.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,563
Why? You wouldn't accept it if she did. You'd claim it was a misunderstanding, or a mistranslation, or that the news source wasn't credible, or that the person reporting it is trans and therefore making it up...

Hadn't heard of her and when I searched her name a lot of porn sites came up. Apparently she's a porn actress. As you know, radical feminists are against porn. Tried with some other key words and realized she only rants and swears. I think she's the female equivalent of the trans activists that swear at feminists, though she doesn't use graphic images about rape as they do.

Any feminists or people from LGB Alliance?
@misskarne called it.
 

Asli

Well-Known Member
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12,981
This is a ridiculous lie. How many transwomen are murdered and/or raped every year compared to how many transwomen are rapists/murderers? This lie is so outrageous I'm actually awestruck.

UK is the country I follow the most.

There is no doubt transgender people are victims of discrimination, bullying and violence. However fortunately the murder rates are pretty low.

In the UK, 9 transgender people have been murdered since 2008, a lower rate than for the average population. Usually 1 per year upto 2018 and none in the last three years, fortunately. (Channel 4 fact checking upto 2018, then TMM updates)

11 trans women were convicted for murder/attempted murder since 2014. (Details.) Don't have time to look for 2008-2014.

As of 2020, 76 transgender people were in prison for sex crimes. Rape (36) attempted rape (10) and other sexual offences. The rape and attempted rape convicts must be trans women, because of the definition of rape in the UK. https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/18973/html/

The government doesn't hold information about rape victims by gender identity according to their reply to this FOI request.

For the USA the last annual report shows 51 transgender people were murdered, which corresponds to only a 0,003% murder rate for the 13+ transgender population, according to the numbers of trangender people here. The murder rate for the general population is about 0.007%. However, the murder rate of black transgender women is higher than the average.

The bulk of transgender murders happen in Latin America and the Carriebean, where murder rates are very high for the general population as well.

Since more than half of the victims are sex workers, the best solution for reducing crime seems to be to try and pull trans women out of prostitution. Obviously this isn't done for female prostitutes either. :(

OTOH I don't think it is helpful to transgender people in Europe and North America to tell them that there is a murder spree against them, when there isn't.

Thank you if you have read upto here.
 

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