Gender "critical" vs. Gender-affirming? (the thread for all things about gender politics)

PRlady

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I believe the article cited severe bone density loss as a medically-accepted consequence. The 300,000 number is accounted for in the article. And the first patient the article discussed, Jaycy, is very happy with the blockers and then hormones.
 

skatingguy

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12,702
Well sure, 300k kids taking puberty blockers would be a news story. But since recent research turned up less than 5000 kids with gender dysphoria who started puberty blockers in the U.S. over the last five years, I frankly think whatever propaganda is causing people to believe in bogus numbers like that should be an even bigger news story.
The article didn't claim that 300k were taking puberty blockers. It was an estimate of the number of adolescents that identify as transgender. There are bound to be lots of teenagers who are experiencing symptoms of gender dysphoria that have not come out to anyone as trans, and therefore are not receiving any treatment at this time. This would seem to correlate with the very high rate of suicidal ideation, and suicide attempts seen in transgender teens.
 

Trillian

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The article didn't claim that 300k were taking puberty blockers. It was an estimate of the number of adolescents that identify as transgender.

Right. And assuming the number is accurate, the proper takeaway is that only a tiny fraction of kids who identify as trans are actually taking puberty blockers. If anything, that should make it more obvious that this form of treatment isn’t easy to get and isn’t being undertaken lightly. People’s personal medical decisions shouldn’t be up for debate by strangers without any relevant medical or scientific training, period. The only newsworthy thing here is that a bunch of people are making a huge deal out of something that, statistically speaking, barely even happens.

An article about why so many adults think they have the right to an opinion about the bodies of other people’s children - when they would never dream of interfering with most other medical treatment - would be a lot more interesting and more relevant than this.
 

Asli

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What I see here is that a black man is being called a "white supremacist" and someone else is rightly making fun of this. In the same way as people who have spent their life as gay and lesbian rights activists are being called homophobic. I don't know this person and don't see the context other than the irony. :confused:

Also, could anyone give an actual quote from JK Rowling that is hateful towards transgender people? Not something that was written about her or a tweet written by someone whose other irrelevant tweet she liked, but something that she has actually said.

JK Rowling: As a longstanding donor to LGBT charities and a supporter of trans people’s right to live free of persecution, I absolutely refute the accusation that I hate trans people or wish them ill, or that standing up for the rights of women is wrong, discriminatory, or incites harm or violence to the trans community.

https://www.jkrowling.com/opinions/...-f-kennedy-human-rights-ripple-of-hope-award/
 

caseyedwards

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Acceptance of trans can not lead to ANY diminishment of womens rights. Definitely no men in womens sports or abolishing the word woman and replacing it with bleeder
 

Asli

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I think the article shows a bigger concern though. And that is that doctors in some places (including the US) have inadequate training and are all using different protocols. I was shocked that a doctor would prescribe puberty blockers to someone who expressed dysphoria only when puberty started. That is not rare at all -- lots of people feel uncomfortable with their bodies during puberty -- and the treatment is therapy, not medicine.

I totally agree with you. The "affirmation-only" method ignores the fact that some of the teenagers with gender dysphoria can be simply uncomfortable with the effects of puberty, including the unwanted attention very young girls attract. Also two-thirds of the patients of the Tavistock clinic were same-sex attracted and could become healthy gay or lesbian adults if their puberty isn't interrupted. This was one of the main point of the Cass review and one of the main reasons why in the UK the Tavistock GIDS is being closed. The patients are being transferred to pediatric clinics with a "holistic" approach that includes therapy.
 

jeffisjeff

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Not surprising that the clip is from Fox and everyone's favorite Tucker. Anyone who still watches that channel is an enabler of hate. If so-called reasonable Republicans* would admit to what goes on at Fox and stop watching, maybe the ratings would go down and advertisers leave. Then maybe, just maybe, their content will shift and some damage can slowly begin to be undone.

*And, yes, this post is directly criticizing those Republicans and other conservatives, both here on FSU and elsewhere, who like to portray themselves as reasonable, moderate and different than the Trump wing. You are a big part of the problem.
 

Asli

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To add insult to injury, the shooter identifies as non-binary, uses the pronouns they/them and wants to be called "Mx Aldrich", according to "their" lawyers. Possibly to wriggle out of a hate crime charge. Why should the justice system continue taking the word of criminals about being transgender?
 

PRlady

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To add insult to injury, the shooter identifies as non-binary, uses the pronouns they/them and wants to be called "Mx Aldrich", according to "their" lawyers. Possibly to wriggle out of a hate crime charge. Why should the justice system continue taking the word of criminals about being transgender?
The right wing is having a gleeful field day with this. :(
 

bladesofgorey

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812
The right wing is having a gleeful field day with this. :(
Which makes no logical sense (but logic never comes into play). Someone can be radicalized against an out group they are part of and carry out hate crimes against that group regardless if they are part of a protected class or not. People would probably be shocked just how many literal neo-nazis who call for genocide that I come across have a POC parent or are married to a Black or Latino woman. The cult of hate is mainstream.
 

PRlady

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Which makes no logical sense (but logic never comes into play). Someone can be radicalized against an out group they are part of and carry out hate crimes against that group regardless if they are part of a protected class or not. People would probably be shocked just how many literal neo-nazis who call for genocide that I come across have a POC parent or are married to a Black or Latino woman. The cult of hate is mainstream.
Don’t forget the Nazis with a Jewish parent, whom they hate.

Whatever the shooter is, the other glee I’m seeing is that the guy who took him down was a real red blooded ex-military American MAN. Of course many question what he was doing in such a groomer place…
 

once_upon

Enough
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Don’t forget the Nazis with a Jewish parent, whom they hate.

Whatever the shooter is, the other glee I’m seeing is that the guy who took him down was a real red blooded ex-military American MAN. Of course many question what he was doing in such a groomer place…

I don't know if your last statement is a question or not but last night on MSNBC (I don't remember who was interviewing) he said he did not want his actions to be political. He was there with his daughter and her boyfriend all watching a good friend who was performing (drag show).

I think my nephew's girl friend (or wife, no one knows for sure - he refers to her as his wife, but not even my brother knows), knew several people at the club. They live in CO Springs.
 

skatingfan5

Past Prancer's Corridor
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14,066
I don't know if your last statement is a question or not but last night on MSNBC (I don't remember who was interviewing) he said he did not want his actions to be political. He was there with his daughter and her boyfriend all watching a good friend who was performing (drag show).

I think my nephew's girl friend (or wife, no one knows for sure - he refers to her as his wife, but not even my brother knows), knew several people at the club. They live in CO Springs.
Yes, he was also there with his wife, who was among the injured as was his daughter. Her boyfriend was one of those who died. :( He said his immediate response was to protect his family and that he considered everyone in the chub to be family.
 
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Trillian

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694
What I see here is that a black man is being called a "white supremacist" and someone else is rightly making fun of this. In the same way as people who have spent their life as gay and lesbian rights activists are being called homophobic. I don't know this person and don't see the context other than the irony. :confused:

The person is Kanye West, and there’s a lot of history there that I’m personally not interested in discussing in this thread, but there’s the starting point if you do want more context.

Also, could anyone give an actual quote from JK Rowling that is hateful towards transgender people?

I think it’s already pretty well-established that some people in this thread consider specific tweets, comments, and actions she’s made to be transphobic and others disagree. We’re looking at the same words, we interpret them differently. I don’t see a lot of point to discussing it endlessly.

I realize that most people here don’t wish harm on trans people or anyone else. But five people are dead and Boston Children’s Hospital had more credible bomb threats in the last week or so. There’s a law proposed in Texas right now that would make it illegal for trans people to perform in public in almost any capacity. I really don’t understand at this point how people aren’t making the connection between these events, and the fact that people’s personal identities and private medical decisions are being promoted as an acceptable topic for public debate. I know some people see the inclusion of trans people as being some kind of threat to other LGBTQ+ people and women in general. I hope most people will recognize that there are other groups and ideologies that have done far more documented harm, and will consider all the ways that focusing so much attention on trans people might actually empower those other groups.
 

Asli

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People do have genuine concerns about the medicalisation of children, for the loss of single-sex spaces, for women's sport and for the dangers for women in prisons and refuges. Not a single feminist has called for violence against transgender people, despite the incredibly violent language used by trans activists towards feminists. So no, it is that shooter's fault.
 

PRlady

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The person is Kanye West, and there’s a lot of history there that I’m personally not interested in discussing in this thread, but there’s the starting point if you do want more context.



I think it’s already pretty well-established that some people in this thread consider specific tweets, comments, and actions she’s made to be transphobic and others disagree. We’re looking at the same words, we interpret them differently. I don’t see a lot of point to discussing it endlessly.

I realize that most people here don’t wish harm on trans people or anyone else. But five people are dead and Boston Children’s Hospital had more credible bomb threats in the last week or so. There’s a law proposed in Texas right now that would make it illegal for trans people to perform in public in almost any capacity. I really don’t understand at this point how people aren’t making the connection between these events, and the fact that people’s personal identities and private medical decisions are being promoted as an acceptable topic for public debate. I know some people see the inclusion of trans people as being some kind of threat to other LGBTQ+ people and women in general. I hope most people will recognize that there are other groups and ideologies that have done far more documented harm, and will consider all the ways that focusing so much attention on trans people might actually empower those other groups.
Trillian, way back a few years ago, I made two statements here, more in line with my own expertise which is certainly not that of a doctor or psychologist.

The first was that the focus on trans issues after marriage equality was won was going to be difficult for progressives politically. Because marriage equality didn’t require the vast majority of people to rethink their concept of what a man or woman is, it was a much bigger leap. The polling then and now bears that out. It wasn’t ordinary people who started the public conversation about individual medical and treatment decisions, it was a concerted activist movement that made it central to public discourse.

The second was that the extreme rhetoric of a minority of activists, many of whom are not trans themselves, was going to endanger the community. People reluctant to identify their pronouns shouldn’t be clapped back as transphobes; lesbians who don’t want to have sex with transwomen shouldn’t be terrorised online, and so on. Most of all, introducing children to the concept of gender fluidity at a young age in school settings engendered a terrible backlash.

I got hollered at and doxed and didn’t post about this for a long time, but I think I was right. I’m sure I’ll be told again that I’m blaming the victims. I’m not. I’m just being realistic about how social change happens.
 

Trillian

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Trillian, way back a few years ago, I made two statements here, more in line with my own expertise which is certainly not that of a doctor or psychologist.

The first was that the focus on trans issues after marriage equality was won was going to be difficult for progressives politically. Because marriage equality didn’t require the vast majority of people to rethink their concept of what a man or woman is, it was a much bigger leap. The polling then and now bears that out. It wasn’t ordinary people who started the public conversation about individual medical and treatment decisions, it was a concerted activist movement that made it central to public discourse.

All I see is trans people asking for the right to exist as themselves in public spaces without being fired, harassed, denied health care or other essential services, etc. I don’t see the trans community asking for anything they’re not entitled to have as human beings. I understand that some people see that as politically inconvenient, but what’s the alternative? Which of their rights should they be willing to compromise?

The second was that the extreme rhetoric of a minority of activists, many of whom are not trans themselves, was going to endanger the community. People reluctant to identify their pronouns shouldn’t be clapped back as transphobes; lesbians who don’t want to have sex with transwomen shouldn’t be terrorised online, and so on.

Those examples aren’t even minority positions, they’re virtually nonexistent. People are being called transphobes for not respecting other people’s pronouns, or for saying that no lesbian should have sex with a trans woman. Most people in the LGBTQ+ community recognize that there are a lot of reasons someone might be reluctant to share their pronouns (including the fact that it’s not always safe for people to do so) and that nobody should be dictating someone else’s sexual preferences. And realistically, any social movement has people on the fringes taking extreme positions that aren’t shared by the majority. It’s not any different in this case than it is every other time.

Most of all, introducing children to the concept of gender fluidity at a young age in school settings engendered a terrible backlash.

Again, I think there’s a really skewed perception of what is happening. If young kids are being introduced to the idea of gender identity at a young age, it’s usually because someone in their lives is trans. What are trans teachers or elementary school students or trans parents supposed to do, if they’re not allowed to introduce themselves and answer questions from kids who might be curious? This is one of those things where outsiders see activism in what trans people just call “existing in public.” No one is drawing up lesson plans about gender identity for first-graders for the fun of it. But people should be allowed to live their lives, which may include interacting with kids.

I got hollered at and doxed and didn’t post about this for a long time, but I think I was right. I’m sure I’ll be told again that I’m blaming the victims. I’m not. I’m just being realistic about how social change happens.

I’m sorry you got doxed; that sucks. And I understand the practical side of your perspective. “Diffusion of innovations” was a whole year of my academic life at one point. But I’m not willing to say to someone, “No, you can’t be a teacher,” or, “Yes, let’s decide your child’s health care with input from the loudest people in the Facebook comments section.” There is no upside to compromising with people who want to deprive someone of basic human rights. Those same people are already coming after the rest of us.
 

caseyedwards

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All I see is trans people asking for the right to exist as themselves in public spaces without being fired, harassed, denied health care or other essential services, etc. I don’t see the trans community asking for anything they’re not entitled to have as human beings. I understand that some people see that as politically inconvenient, but what’s the alternative? Which of their rights should they be willing to compromise?



Those examples aren’t even minority positions, they’re virtually nonexistent. People are being called transphobes for not respecting other people’s pronouns, or for saying that no lesbian should have sex with a trans woman. Most people in the LGBTQ+ community recognize that there are a lot of reasons someone might be reluctant to share their pronouns (including the fact that it’s not always safe for people to do so) and that nobody should be dictating someone else’s sexual preferences. And realistically, any social movement has people on the fringes taking extreme positions that aren’t shared by the majority. It’s not any different in this case than it is every other time.



Again, I think there’s a really skewed perception of what is happening. If young kids are being introduced to the idea of gender identity at a young age, it’s usually because someone in their lives is trans. What are trans teachers or elementary school students or trans parents supposed to do, if they’re not allowed to introduce themselves and answer questions from kids who might be curious? This is one of those things where outsiders see activism in what trans people just call “existing in public.” No one is drawing up lesson plans about gender identity for first-graders for the fun of it. But people should be allowed to live their lives, which may include interacting with kids.



I’m sorry you got doxed; that sucks. And I understand the practical side of your perspective. “Diffusion of innovations” was a whole year of my academic life at one point. But I’m not willing to say to someone, “No, you can’t be a teacher,” or, “Yes, let’s decide your child’s health care with input from the loudest people in the Facebook comments section.” There is no upside to compromising with people who want to deprive someone of basic human rights. Those same people are already coming after the rest of us.
Any adult can say “ask your parents.” they don’t have to answer anything. They can direct to parents.
 

Allskate

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Again, I think there’s a really skewed perception of what is happening.
I've seen who is doing most of the skewing. The right wingers have jumped on the absurd idea and paranoia that kids will be abused in schools. I've met some of these nutters who think that schools are sexualizing little kids and there is a worldwide child sex trafficking conpsiracy. They will take part in armed protests of drag queen performances. (Yes, I know that being a drag queen is not synonymous with being trans, but to these nutters they are all predators out to sexually abuse children.) Politicians are promoting and exploiting this. They deliberately have made education of young kids and trans athletes the focal point of trans issues, tapping into and amplifying fear and anger. DeSantis is happily doing that to his political benefit. I've seen political ads saying that a candidate had an agenda to make kids have surgery. There is a lot of garbage out there like that. These are not statements made by people like J.K. Rowing, and they are not rare situations. These are people who don't have any empathy for trans people and a lot irrational fear and hate or desire to exploit it. IMO, this is not the fault of trans activists, though it might partly be the result. It is the fault of the nutters and those who want to exploit them.
 

PRlady

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41,424
All I see is trans people asking for the right to exist as themselves in public spaces without being fired, harassed, denied health care or other essential services, etc. I don’t see the trans community asking for anything they’re not entitled to have as human beings. I understand that some people see that as politically inconvenient, but what’s the alternative? Which of their rights should they be willing to compromise?



Those examples aren’t even minority positions, they’re virtually nonexistent. People are being called transphobes for not respecting other people’s pronouns, or for saying that no lesbian should have sex with a trans woman. Most people in the LGBTQ+ community recognize that there are a lot of reasons someone might be reluctant to share their pronouns (including the fact that it’s not always safe for people to do so) and that nobody should be dictating someone else’s sexual preferences. And realistically, any social movement has people on the fringes taking extreme positions that aren’t shared by the majority. It’s not any different in this case than it is every other time.



Again, I think there’s a really skewed perception of what is happening. If young kids are being introduced to the idea of gender identity at a young age, it’s usually because someone in their lives is trans. What are trans teachers or elementary school students or trans parents supposed to do, if they’re not allowed to introduce themselves and answer questions from kids who might be curious? This is one of those things where outsiders see activism in what trans people just call “existing in public.” No one is drawing up lesson plans about gender identity for first-graders for the fun of it. But people should be allowed to live their lives, which may include interacting with kids.



I’m sorry you got doxed; that sucks. And I understand the practical side of your perspective. “Diffusion of innovations” was a whole year of my academic life at one point. But I’m not willing to say to someone, “No, you can’t be a teacher,” or, “Yes, let’s decide your child’s health care with input from the loudest people in the Facebook comments section.” There is no upside to compromising with people who want to deprive someone of basic human rights. Those same people are already coming after the rest of us.
As always, I respect your insight and answers. But I do think that kids are being taught about gender ID in some schools, not just when a trans person is in their life. I gifted this article which indicates that to differing extents it is present in the curriculum: https://wapo.st/3GIl2PJ

I also have had personal experience in being required to use pronoun preference in my professional signature; lesbian friends have been criticized for saying that they would not date transwomen on their dating profiles. (I haven’t been dating for a while now and don’t know if indicating these preferences is a hot topic on straight dating sites.)

Finally, I think Obama jumped the gun with the bathroom executive order, he was way way ahead of the National understanding of the issue, much less majority support. It was bad politics and it has backfired on the people who it was trying to help. Not every trans person wants to fly a public flag, the premature government intervention just made the backlash from right-wing hate mongers more acceptable to the puzzled and uninformed folks in the middle.

Anyway, it’s sad and bad and dangerous and even harder, I think, on trans people than it was before. (I might be completely wrong about that.) This is the hardest civil rights battle I’ve ever seen, it requires more leaps of understanding than anything comparable, and it’s becoming even more of a tragedy.
 

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