Gender "critical" vs. Gender-affirming? (the thread for all things about gender politics)

[allezfred]

Well JK Rowling has well and truly lost the plot. This is what she is now posting when people like Graham Norton very diplomatically says we should listen to trans people and expert doctors.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1580609449105891329

It is pretty blatant misandry at this stage.

 

[skatingguy]

 

[Asli]

I personally don't know any credible physican or clinic treating trans kids/teens who are going to act on gender transition therapies because of choice in clothing or sports or toys or even with the initial voicing of gender fluidity.

These are part of DSM-5 for gender dysphoria, the guidelines published by the American Psychiatric Association for the diagnosis of gender dysphoria.

5 out of the 8 criteria are completely based on clothes, toys, activities and the choice of friends.

"The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong preference for cross-dressing or simulating female attire; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong preference for wearing only typical masculine clothing and a strong resistance to the wearing of typical feminine clothing
• A strong preference for cross-gender roles in make-believe play or fantasy play
• A strong preference for the toys, games or activities stereotypically used or engaged in by the other gender
• A strong preference for playmates of the other gender
• In boys (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically masculine toys, games, and activities and a strong avoidance of rough-and-tumble play; or in girls (assigned gender), a strong rejection of typically feminine toys, games, and activities
• A strong dislike of one’s sexual anatomy
• A strong desire for the physical sex characteristics that match one’s experienced gender

 

[Asli]

Do people here agree that the choice of toys, activities and roles in fantasy play should be such a strong factor in diagnosing gender dysphoria and therefore labeling children as transgender?

Also, what are the consequences of these on some gay and butch lesbian children? Won't they be diagnosed as trans?

 

[skategal]

Also, what are the consequences of these on some gay and butch lesbian children? Won't they be diagnosed as trans?

No because right in your post above it says to be identified as trans someone needs point 1. A strong desire to be the other gender or insistence that one is the other gender.

Gay and lesbian people generally don’t insist that they are the other gender.

 

[Asli]

No because right in your post above it says to be identified as trans someone needs point 1. A strong desire to be the other gender or insistence that one is the other gender.

Gay and lesbian people generally don’t insist that they are the other gender.

No, 6 out of the 8 criteria are considered sufficient. For instance, a little girl doesn't have to say she wants to be a boy. It's enough for her to say she hates being a girl (number 7). Which, with the toys and activities, would be enough.

That would be at least half the girls in my home country. Who wouldn't hate being a girl under these circumstances? No wonder the clinics report three third of children coming in are girls. The stereotypes on girls' and buys' clothes, toys and activities are very conservative and outdated. Down with them!

 

[skategal]

No, 6 out of the 8 criteria are considered sufficient. For instance, a little girl doesn't have to say she wants to be a boy. It's enough for her to say she hates being a girl (number 7). Which, with the toys and activities, would be enough.

That would be at least half the girls in my home country. Who wouldn't hate being a girl under these circumstances? No wonder the clinics report three third of children coming in are girls. The stereotypes on girls' and buys' clothes, toys and activities are very conservative and outdated. Down with them!

Go back and read what you posted in the criteria.

You need 6 criteria ONE of which must be point 1. - insistence that you are the other gender.

I’m taking this straight from your own post. #453.

 

[skategal]

These are part of DSM-5 for gender dysphoria, the guidelines published by the American Psych
"The DSM-5-TR defines gender dysphoria in children as a marked incongruence between one’s experienced/expressed gender and assigned gender, lasting at least 6 months, as manifested by at least six of the following (one of which must be the first criterion):

• A strong desire to be of the other gender or an insistence that one is the other gender (or some alternative gender different from one’s assigned gender)

See above.

 

[once_upon]

Please read the difference between gender expression and gender identity and continue to diagnosis section. Continue to treatment section.

Your definition is part of gender expression and criteria listed under diagnosis is gender identity.

No reputable transgender clinic/care facility is going to use the pre adolescent criteria you listed from the DMS to begin hormonal therapies. They will do supportive psychological exploration. Designed to help the child process how they perceive themselves and to avoid psychological harm.

Psychiatry.org - What is Gender Dysphoria?

Learn about gender dysphoria, including symptoms, risk factors, treatment options and answers to common questions.

www.psychiatry.org

Choosing and picking parts of the DMS -5 -TR to "prove" points, without looking at ALL components of gender dysphoria is like picking and choosing which parts of the Bible or other religious literature.

 

[Asli]

Go back and read what you posted in the criteria.

You need 6 criteria ONE of which must be point 1. - insistence that you are the other gender.

You are right, thank you. I hadn't seen your correction before posting again.
This happened because my previous knowledge about the criteria came from Boston University's page, where this wasn't mentioned,
but I looked up a more official version to post here and didn't re-read it. at myself.

Do you agree with my point that the choice of toys, activities and friends shouldn't be so prominent in these criteria?

 

[once_upon]

A reputable gender treatment facility will be able to help a child/adolescent/adult through gender expression, gender fluidity and gender identification.

Will also help parents and others understand the desire to dress differently, play differently than traditional society designations and the actual gender identification.

 

[skategal]

You are right, thank you. I hadn't seen your correction before posting again.
This happened because my previous knowledge about the criteria came from Boston University's page, where this wasn't mentioned,
but I looked up a more official version to post here and didn't re-read it. at myself.

Do you agree with my point that the choice of toys, activities and friends shouldn't be so prominent in these criteria?

I think those are secondary things to consider and the big one is insisting on being the other gender for more than 6 months which is the defining criteria as laid out in the manual.

A child insisting that they are the other gender for more than 6 months is a HUGE indicator that should be investigated further by professionals.

 

[Asli]

No reputable transgender clinic/care facility is going to use the pre adolescent criteria you listed from the DMS to begin hormonal therapies. They will do supportive psychological exploration. Designed to help the child process how they perceive themselves and to avoid psychological harm.

We were talking about the case of a 4-year-old child, not about hormonal therapy. The criteria for adolescents are different.

Psychiatry.org - What is Gender Dysphoria?

Learn about gender dysphoria, including symptoms, risk factors, treatment options and answers to common questions.

www.psychiatry.org

Choosing and picking parts of the DMS -5 -TR to "prove" points, without looking at ALL components of gender dysphoria is like picking and choosing which parts of the Bible or other religious literature.

It's not "choosing and picking parts" if it is five criteria out of eight. I'm not claiming that this is the entire diagnosis criteria, but that even the mention of toys and activities in this context is wrong.

 

[Asli]

I think those are secondary things to consider and the big one is insisting on being the other gender for more than 6 months which is the defining criteria as laid out in the manual.

Without forgetting according to Kohlberg gender constancy starts at 6 or 7 years of age and before that children may think that in order to do certain activities they have to be a boy or a girl.

Also, you have to take the parents' word for it as the child can't know if it has been six months.

My whole point is that it's too young and the criteria is too vague. If we can't tell pre-school children their biological sex and instead present them with an ever growing menu of gender identities in order to help the 0.05% or so who are actually transgender, we will have a generation of very confused children locked into gender stereotypes. JMHO.

 

[Asli]

We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[skategal]

Without forgetting according to Kohlberg gender constancy starts at 6 or 7 years of age and before that children may think that in order to do certain activities they have to be a boy or a girl.

Also, you have to take the parents' word for it as the child can't know if it has been six months.

My whole point is that it's too young and the criteria is too vague. If we can't tell pre-school children their biological sex and instead present them with an ever growing menu of gender identities in order to help the 0.05% or so who are actually transgender, we will have a generation of very confused children locked into gender stereotypes. JMHO.

I don't think parents can coerce their kids into being transgender or cis or gay or straight.

If your child at age 4 is insisting that they are the opposite gender for more than 6 months, they either are transgender or it is a phase that they will grow out of.

They can't start puberty blockers until much later than age 4.

If you child is insisting that they are the opposite gender for multiple years while socially dressing as the opposite gender and choosing a new name. They are transgender.

At age 4 parents are just being open to the possibility that their child may be transgender and trying to help.

And I will flip your statistic and say 99.95% of kids have no problem with identifying their gender despite what they wear, what toys they play with, what name they have, what parents they have, what their parents encourage or discourage.

Your posts are much ado about nothing.

 

[made_in_canada]

We were talking about the case of a 4-year-old child, not about hormonal therapy. The criteria for adolescents are different.



It's not "choosing and picking parts" if it is five criteria out of eight. I'm not claiming that this is the entire diagnosis criteria, but that even the mention of toys and activities in this context is wrong.

Kids aren't being diagnosed with gender dysphoria simply because they play with toys or wear clothes not associated with their assigned gender. My five year old son sometimes dresses up in princess dresses, likes nail polish, and participates in lots of things stereotypically girl but I'm not marching him off to a therapist because he's not distressed at all about it. He's fine with it, fine with being called a boy, there's no dysphoria, there's no confusion. There's room within the DSM diagnostic criteria for typical exploration of gender and self identity.

I think it makes sense that a kid that's uncomfortable with their assigned gender would naturally gravitate towards toys, clothes, activities, that feel more comfortable. The DSM criteria aren't talking about my son that occasionally wears a dress, it's talking about kids that have a STRONG preference for things associated with the opposite gender.

I really fail to see how exposing kids to different gender identities and gender expressions is so confusing for kids. If anything, IME with my own young children, it gives them a less narrow view of stereotypical gender roles.

 

[once_upon]

So, one case? And objections of inclusion of societal gender roles not looking at the subcategories of gender dysphoria of gender exploration, gender identification, criteria in both categories and treatments for both children and adolescents? Plus how the child should have been referred to transgender clinics? There is a lot of picking and choosing.

I know of several cases of children who had non consensual operations to change genders. Those cases were severe congenital defects - Omphalocele or bladder exstrophy. In these cases the contents of the abdomen or bladder are not within the abdominal cavity and there was not space or tissue to completely return organs into the cavity without many, many procedures. Often the penile tissue was separated, sort of like a split or semi split sausage. Testes sacs were not completely developed. This was 55 years or so ago. Penile transplant devices were in early experimental stages. The surgery was more life saving than anything. What I believe was the overriding error, was not telling the child their biological DNA. ETA- starting hormone therapy without explaining why, just as starting hormone therapy in girls with Turner's Syndrome.

If the societal gender classifications are the parents or other adults driving factor to bringing the child to a doctor - everyone, everyone needs to step back and assess why it is an issue.

Kids can be confused, kids can be gender fluid, kids can just like to play or dress as society sees as not conforming. It is up to a qualified team in gender medicine to determine the course.

Diagnostic criteria is not only useful in diagnosis but essential in reimbursement and treatment options (at least in the US), especially in mental health.

 

[Trillian]

I think it makes sense that a kid that's uncomfortable with their assigned gender would naturally gravitate towards toys, clothes, activities, that feel more comfortable. The DSM criteria aren't talking about my son that occasionally wears a dress, it's talking about kids that have a STRONG preference for things associated with the opposite gender.

Exactly. A lot of little boys, for example, might want to wear a dress once in a while, or otherwise be interested in things that are stereotypically “girly.” My younger son went through a phase of being into princess-themed things, and now as a middle-schooler he wears his hair super long, but he’s also been into more stereotypically “boy” interests at the same time and has never even slightly hesitated to identify as a boy. One thing I have observed in trans kids, on the other hand, is that they might actually be much more insistent about leaning into the stereotypes of the gender they identify as, and avoiding things more stereotypically associated with the gender assigned at birth, as a form of communication. A young trans girl might cling to princesses and the color pink, for example, not because she’s trans - but because it’s a way that she can try to communicate that she’s a girl to adults who insist on calling her a boy.

I really fail to see how exposing kids to different gender identities and gender expressions is so confusing for kids. If anything, IME with my own young children, it gives them a less narrow view of stereotypical gender roles.

As far as I’m concerned, allowing kids to be whoever they are when they’re young just makes them more secure in their identity as they get older. My son gets mistaken for a girl a lot because of his long hair and the fact that he chooses to mask in most public places, but he just politely corrects people and still doesn’t want to cut his hair. But he also has a friend at school who is a trans girl, and the other day he did what I thought was a really impressive job (for a sixth grader) of articulating why it’s a completely different experience for her to be misgendered than it is for him. Kids are smart. They don’t get as easily confused about gender as some adults seem to think they do.

 

[once_upon]

My cousin has a child that identifies as transgender. I can't remember which birth gender to identified gender, as my cousin is much younger than me, lives a thousand miles or more from me, and I've only seen pictures of them as infant. They are reaching puberty and my aunt says they must make some decisions soon - but not without help of professionals.

Every kid I know played/plays dress up (dresses, cowboy boots, superheroes, animals), every kid I know plays with dolls, trucks, footballs, gymnastics, dance games. Every kid I know has had long hair at some time - two of my son's did even in high school/college because girls/young women loved playing with their hair. With 40 years of pediatric nursing - I've known A LOT of kids. My grandson loved getting his nails done - because his favorite babysitter would do his sister's nails.

Kids might not be able to tell months, although my granddaughter could tell me what month it was and name all 12 months of the year, when she was three, but they do know some marking of time. When I was 2, now I'm 3 type of markings. But no reputable gender clinic is going to take the parent's word for that measurement.

 

[MacMadame]

I was coming here to post this! It's an excellent explanation of all the players in the "gender-critical" world in the UK (and elsewhere), which ones partner with hate groups and which do not and taking down some of the organizations that claim to have one goal but their actions show they exist only to hate on trans people and deny them their rights.

 

[allezfred]

The gender criticals have piled on to Graham Norton and now his Twitter account is closed. All for saying something as innocuous as “listen to trans people and experts”…..

 

[Asli]

Actually, never mind.

 

[Asli]

Never mind.

 

[PRlady]

Gifted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

 

[Trillian]

Gifted:

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/14/...ytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

Minors are regularly prescribed medication with potentially serious and/or long-term side effects - Accutane and certain forms of birth control come to mind right away, but I’m sure there are others. Presumably the parents, doctors, and kids in those cases make the decision together by weighing the risks versus the desired positive outcomes. While there’s certainly room to discuss how those decisions are made in a general sense, it was an odd choice in this case for the writers to focus on one relatively uncommon area of medical practice without bothering to contextualize it at all. I wonder what on earth could have motivated them.

 

[PRlady]

Perhaps the rapidly increasing number of kids who could be prescribed puberty blockers for gender dysphoria, as cited in the article?

A few hundred kids getting an off-label drug, even one that is now sidelined abroad, is not a news story. 300,000 potential patients are. And of course, the controversies on the issue generally make it newsworthy.

 

[Trillian]

A few hundred kids getting an off-label drug, even one that is now sidelined abroad, is not a news story. 300,000 potential patients are.

Well sure, 300k kids taking puberty blockers would be a news story. But since recent research turned up less than 5000 kids with gender dysphoria who started puberty blockers in the U.S. over the last five years, I frankly think whatever propaganda is causing people to believe in bogus numbers like that should be an even bigger news story.

Number of transgender children seeking treatment surges in U.S.

About 42,000 U.S. children ages 6 to 17 were diagnosed with gender dysphoria in 2021, nearly triple the number in 2017, a unique data analysis for Reuters found.

www.reuters.com

And of course, the controversies on the issue generally make it newsworthy.

And the fact that the kids and their doctors have been the target of bomb threats in the wake of these “controversies” should make it imperative that reporters who choose to cover it report on it responsibly.

 

[once_upon]

I think the discussion is worth having, but I don't see any wide scaled research being published as yet. It is anticipated that research is the be published next year. The article has some built in bias, I didn't see any statements by those who did undergo hormone blockers and reported more positive results.

I think it would be hard to do a double blind research on these young people to determine cause/effect without eliminating all other causes of bone density/fracture issues.

But that's just my perspective

 

[MacMadame]

Puberty blockers have been given for 3 decades by the Dutch. That's plenty of time to find out what the long-term effects are as some of the first patients are now in their 40s. Also, it's plenty of time to find out if there are severe consequences that outweigh the benefits of the drug, but we have not seen that.

I think the article shows a bigger concern though. And that is that doctors in some places (including the US) have inadequate training and are all using different protocols. I was shocked that a doctor would prescribe puberty blockers to someone who expressed dysphoria only when puberty started. That is not rare at all -- lots of people feel uncomfortable with their bodies during puberty -- and the treatment is therapy, not medicine.