Dangers of a Trump Presidency--Part 7

skateboy

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6,551
What do you expect that impeaching Trump without the vote of a single Republican will accomplish?
Unless impeachment would lead to REMOVAL of Trump (it won't), then it changes nothing and could in fact work in Trump's favor in 2020. ("The Democrats hate me so much they impeached me... and I'm still here!")
 

clairecloutier

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9,573
What do you expect that impeaching Trump without the vote of a single Republican will accomplish?
Do we really have to argue this again? It's been discussed here before and also in myriad articles.

Personally, I feel it's important that Democrats take a stand against this president's corrupt, bad-faith, and possibly illegal behavior. If we don't stand up against it and reject it as unacceptable, then we are basically accepting it as the new normal and going along with it. If Republicans don't agree, that's unfortunate but at least we have let the country know where we stand.

I also believe Democrats should pursue impeachment for 3 other reasons: 1) It might make it easier in some cases to compel testimony from Administration witnesses, which they are currently obstructing completely, 2) It might therefore expose more factual evidence of misdeeds of this Administration, 3) Such testimony might very well help convince more Americans (who knows, even some Republicans) to support impeachment. Again, the experience of the Nixon impeachment inquiry somewhat supports this concept.

As far as I can tell, whether Democrats support impeachment, or not, is largely coming down to a matter of personal belief about what you think the likely pros/cons/negative outcomes are. Some people feel it is NOT worth the risk, other people like me feel it IS worth the risk or is just morally necessary. I don't think either side can pretend to have the "right" answer, because none of us can see into the future and know what will happen. We have to just go with what we think is the best course of action.

From my end, I am just concerned that Pelosi is going to start losing people who voted Democrats into office in 2018 to act as a counter or check on Trump. If these voters conclude that she's doing nothing and Democrats in general are doing nothing and not taking a stand, will they come out to vote Democrat again in 2020?

All I'm saying is if people DO support impeachment, contacting their MoC or Pelosi to express support for it is one way to take action. If people don't support impeachment, then they can just ignore this.
 

skatesindreams

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29,405
More voters need to support impeachment; even without being able to convict Trump, before it will become more than a "token gesture".
Claire, noble as those goals are, I'm afraid that all of it will create a sympathy vote for him.
 
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PrincessLeppard

Holding Alex Johnson's Pineapple
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I don't think it will create a sympathy vote at all. It will rile up his base, but they are what? 30% of the electorate? At best?

I've also noticed that after this latest debacle, my Trump friends are silent. I mean, I'm sure the "BIDEN IZ CORRUPT OMG LOCK HIM UP" shit will start soon, but at the moment, they have to get the doublethink straight in their minds.
 

Vagabond

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13,311
Do we really have to argue this again? It's been discussed here before and also in myriad articles.
You were the one suggesting that I should contact my Congresswoman, who happens to be Nancy Pelosi. I was hoping that you might explain why. You didn't have to be snide.
 

mag

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Just in case there is any questions about the hypocrisy of the Trump administration:


The last question Jake asks is the real kicker.
 

ballettmaus

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12,536
More voters need to support impeachment;
I don't think it will happen until Democrats push for it publicly, change their messaging and sell the hearings (and don't botch them like they seem to have done with the Lewandowski hearing).

I never really understood why some said Democrats are bad at playing politics and are too nice and all that. Now, I do.
 

ballettmaus

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12,536
("The Democrats hate me so much they impeached me... and I'm still here!")
And without impeachment he can say "If I had done any of what Democrats accuse me of, they would have impeached me, but they didn't, so..."

Since Democrats apparently can't win here, why not choose the option that says: "we're holding the President accountable for his crimes because he is not above the law and we don't want to set a precedence for furture Presidents"?

I believe that Trump is more afraid of impeachment than he lets on and I also think that if Democrats managed to message it right and more importantly, if they managed to control the narrative for once, they are more likely to benefit than lose.
 

Vash01

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This tweet includes a list of House Democrats who have NOT yet stated support for impeachment.


If you live in these Members' districts and if you support impeachment, you could consider calling your MoC to say so (if you haven't already). You can also contact Pelosi directly in her role as Speaker.

One of Pelosi's daughters tweeted this weekend that the House's court cases are getting more attention than complaining tweets are, etc. I disagree; their various court cases seem to have recessed into the background and who knows what will happen with them.

I'm really questioning House leadership at this point (mainly, Pelosi). As someone said on Twitter, the house is burning and Trump is getting worse every day.
TBH I feel Pelosi should be removed from the Speaker position. She is weakening the entire Democratic Party.
 

Vash01

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And without impeachment he can say "If I had done any of what Democrats accuse me of, they would have impeached me, but they didn't, so..."

Since Democrats apparently can't win here, why not choose the option that says: "we're holding the President accountable for his crimes because he is not above the law and we don't want to set a precedence for furture Presidents"?

I believe that Trump is more afraid of impeachment than he lets on and I also think that if Democrats managed to message it right and more importantly, if they managed to control the narrative for once, they are more likely to benefit than lose.
Trump is not the only one who is afraid of impeachment. The democrats are too, thanks to Pelosi. It is a disgrace that their own re-elections are more important to them than upholding the constitution of the country they took an oath to serve.
 

Sparks

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“If the Administration persists in blocking this whistleblower from disclosing to Congress… they will be entering a grave new chapter of lawlessness which will take us into a whole new stage of investigation,” the speaker wrote

 

Vash01

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Do we really have to argue this again? It's been discussed here before and also in myriad articles.

Personally, I feel it's important that Democrats take a stand against this president's corrupt, bad-faith, and possibly illegal behavior. If we don't stand up against it and reject it as unacceptable, then we are basically accepting it as the new normal and going along with it. If Republicans don't agree, that's unfortunate but at least we have let the country know where we stand.

I also believe Democrats should pursue impeachment for 3 other reasons: 1) It might make it easier in some cases to compel testimony from Administration witnesses, which they are currently obstructing completely, 2) It might therefore expose more factual evidence of misdeeds of this Administration, 3) Such testimony might very well help convince more Americans (who knows, even some Republicans) to support impeachment. Again, the experience of the Nixon impeachment inquiry somewhat supports this concept.

As far as I can tell, whether Democrats support impeachment, or not, is largely coming down to a matter of personal belief about what you think the likely pros/cons/negative outcomes are. Some people feel it is NOT worth the risk, other people like me feel it IS worth the risk or is just morally necessary. I don't think either side can pretend to have the "right" answer, because none of us can see into the future and know what will happen. We have to just go with what we think is the best course of action.

From my end, I am just concerned that Pelosi is going to start losing people who voted Democrats into office in 2018 to act as a counter or check on Trump. If these voters conclude that she's doing nothing and Democrats in general are doing nothing and not taking a stand, will they come out to vote Democrat again in 2020?

All I'm saying is if people DO support impeachment, contacting their MoC or Pelosi to express support for it is one way to take action. If people don't support impeachment, then they can just ignore this.
I agree on many points. I am one of the democrats who plans to become Independent, once the primaries are over. I do want to vote in the primaries. I am ashamed of being a democrat right now. It doesn’t mean I will vote for Trump, but they have lost my support in the years to come, unless I see them start giving importance to morals, ethics, and doing the right things, putting the country ahead of their own selfish desires. I do not want to be a supporter of the Pelosi Democrats (and I was a big supporter of her when her Speaker position was in question).
 

skateboy

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6,551
I believe that Trump is more afraid of impeachment than he lets on and I also think that if Democrats managed to message it right and more importantly, if they managed to control the narrative for once, they are more likely to benefit than lose.
I agree, Trump is afraid of impeachment--and a lot of other things--but he'll never let on to that.

Personally, I don't believe impeachment is what's going to assure that Trump is booted out of the White House, it's going to come down to him being absolutely slaughtered in the next election, so that no amount of outside interference, nor gerrymandering, will make the slightest difference.

For that to happen, we need a candidate who is not afraid to take Trump on and hit below the belt, if necessary... a candidate that will fire right back at Trump when he starts playing dirty. That's how Trump operates and it works for him... his supporters see him as a strong leader that won't put up with any sh!t. So get a Democratic candidate to excite the country. We need Democratic crowds to start shouting "Lock him up!"

Democrats are usually respectful and it no longer works. I think Mayor Pete, Andrew Yang or Kamala Harris could pulverize Trump in a debate. I don't have a lot of faith in the others.
 

Vash01

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I agree, Trump is afraid of impeachment--and a lot of other things--but he'll never let on to that.

Personally, I don't believe impeachment is what's going to assure that Trump is booted out of the White House, it's going to come down to him being absolutely slaughtered in the next election, so that no amount of outside interference, nor gerrymandering, will make the slightest difference.

For that to happen, we need a candidate who is not afraid to take Trump on and hit below the belt, if necessary... a candidate that will fire right back at Trump when he starts playing dirty. That's how Trump operates and it works for him... his supporters see him as a strong leader that won't put up with any sh!t. So get a Democratic candidate to excite the country. We need Democratic crowds to start shouting "Lock him up!"

Democrats are usually respectful and it no longer works. I think Mayor Pete, Andrew Yang or Kamala Harris could pulverize Trump in a debate. I don't have a lot of faith in the others.
Debates mean nothing. Hillary pulverized him in all three debates. How did it help her in the elections?

Impeachment won’t boot him out of the office but it will send a message that he is crook who does not deserve to be in the office (so don’t re-elect him). It will hold him accountable, and that will be important for the future. You cannot shame a shameless, so he will continue to do his evil deeds but let others know that there are consequences. His base will never abandon him but some others who have conscience and intelligence might.
 

Susan1

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“If the Administration persists in blocking this whistleblower from disclosing to Congress… they will be entering a grave new chapter of lawlessness which will take us into a whole new stage of investigation,” the speaker wrote

More empty words. How much more is it going to take? How many more years or "investigations"? What is she afraid of?
 

Aussie Willy

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I don't think it will create a sympathy vote at all. It will rile up his base, but they are what? 30% of the electorate? At best?

I've also noticed that after this latest debacle, my Trump friends are silent. I mean, I'm sure the "BIDEN IZ CORRUPT OMG LOCK HIM UP" shit will start soon, but at the moment, they have to get the doublethink straight in their minds.
But those 30% are rabid diehards who will definitely vote and you only need 30% of the country to vote for someone to become President. Because unless the others who are willing to see Trump out are as strongly motivated as the diehards then, then the diehards will win. But regardless of the reasons for impeachment and the proceedings, Trump will come out looking like the victim. Gives his support base more ammunition.
 

skateboy

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Debates mean nothing. Hillary pulverized him in all three debates. How did it help her in the elections?
Well, I thought Hillary pulverized Trump in the debates but obviously not everyone thought so. She remained dignified against Trump's antics. Bottom line was that too many people simply did not like Hillary and would have voted against her no matter what she said.

But now, Trump has his history of being an embarrassing and disastrous president. It's not the same battle.
 

Vash01

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Well, I thought Hillary pulverized Trump in the debates but obviously not everyone thought so. She remained dignified against Trump's antics. Bottom line was that too many people simply did not like Hillary and would have voted against her no matter what she said.

But now, Trump has his history of being an embarrassing and disastrous president. It's not the same battle.
So if you are dignified it is a bad thing? Is that the direction you want the country to go in? IMO it is time to bring back civility, respect, and love for the country.
 

skateboy

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So if you are dignified it is a bad thing? Is that the direction you want the country to go in? IMO it is time to bring back civility, respect, and love for the country.
Dignity is great, but what I want (and I don't think it's just me) is for the entire country--not just Congress--to fight like hell against this buffoon in the White House, as if our lives depend on it... because it's true.
 

caseyedwards

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All debates are good for trump because they legitimize him. So any democrat who is the nominee must boycott them.
 

Prancer

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Trump, apparently, asked a foreign leader to help him win an election and I'm not sure what more he needs to do before TPTB believe that they can't rely on the next election to get him out of office and are running out of time.
No. Trump allegedly implied to a foreign leader that he would withhold support from said leader if said leader did not re-open an investigation inot Joe Biden's son, supposedly to get dirt on a political opponent.

But since the intelligence community has declined to share any information about the whistleblower's actual statement or to release the transcript of the phone call in questions, there is no proof.

Anonymous sources in the media might be 100% correct, but that's not evidence. If the House wants to move forward with impeachment, they need an actual case.
 

caseyedwards

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No. Trump allegedly implied to a foreign leader that he would withhold support from said leader if said leader did not re-open an investigation inot Joe Biden's son, supposedly to get dirt on a political opponent.

But since the intelligence community has declined to share any information about the whistleblower's actual statement or to release the transcript of the phone call in questions, there is no proof.

Anonymous sources in the media might be 100% correct, but that's not evidence. If the House wants to move forward with impeachment, they need an actual case.
They just don’t have the smoking guns!! Nixon was going to be impeached because of circumstantial evidence before the smoking gun tape and so can trump
 

PrincessLeppard

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I read some speculation (can't remember where, sorry, I couldn't sleep and was scrolling twitter) that the Ukraine thing is not the actual whistleblower case, which is why Trump basically admitted to it. This journalist speculated that it had to do with the administration's request for the names and locations of four of the top spies in Russia, which led to the extraction of one that we know of.

The only issue is, of course, that this happened in 2018, and it seems that the whistleblower just filed his/her report.

So I dunno.
 

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