Dangers of a Trump Presidency--Part 7

ballettmaus

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Trump claimed today that AOC, Omar, Pressley and Tlaib are "very racist" and "not very smart". He was on his way to pay respects to the late Justice Stevens as he tweeted that. Such a classy man. I guess, we should be happy that he didn't tweet it while he was paying his respects. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-accuses-four-minority-congresswomen-of-being-very-racist-and-not-very-smart/2019/07/22/2e74acce-ac90-11e9-bc5c-e73b603e7f38_story.html?utm_term=.55fed4af9812


The Illinois Republican County Chairmen's Association shared a photo on facebook depicting AOC, Omar, Pressley and Tlaib as the "jihad squad". https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/22/politics/illinois-gop-squad-meme/index.html


Trump's pick for the Fed, Shelton, says she would support a cut to interest rates. (Big surprise, she wants the job :p) https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/07/22/trump-fed-nominee-judy-shelton-calls-basis-point-cut-interest-rates-july/?utm_term=.658c2c4aa412
 

Prancer

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The point I was (badly, apparently) trying to make was that the article basically says it's very likely that Republicans are going to twist themselves like a pretzel to stand by Trump no matter what he does and there is really nothing we can do about. If things get worse, it leaves little to be hopeful about.
Did you somehow get the impression that I didn't understand the opinion piece or that I didn't get what you meant?

Yes, Trump supporters will find ways to support Trump and there is little we can do about it. This is not unique to Trump supporters, nor is it unique to this particular time and place. I see no reason to be particularly pessimistic just because Trump supporters are behaving like human beings. This too shall pass, one way or another.

I think the issue for many people is that they don't understand how Trump supporters think. Hopefully this will help them understand.
I don't think that many people are all that interested in how Trump supporters think nor are they interested in understanding them.

We have had reams of writing about Trump supporters since he was elected. If many people actually wanted to understand Trump supporters, they would already. Or they would actually go and listen to some Trump supporters--and by that I don't mean people on television, but people you actually know.

But also, I think it shows how not to deal with them. When someone is in the throes of confirmation bias / cognitive dissonance, you can't reason with them. It's better to not address the problem head on, I think. Instead, I think we have to constantly whittle away in a sideways manner.
If you are approaching Trump supporters as wrong-headed people who need to have their minds changed, that might be the case. But if you want to change people, personal experiences and emotional resonance are far more effective than any amount of reason.
 

misskarne

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Geez since I can't post anything without you hounding me about the above, I'll give you my thoughts on this.

You conveniently leave out the rest of his tweet. He did not tell them to leave and never come back. He said come back and show us how it's done. All they are is negative energy, constantly complaining about the US and calling anyone who disagrees with or challenges them racist. It's getting old. But they really are insignificant.

I do wish he would stop wasting time on these four and focus on the Justice Democrats and Saikat Chakrabarti who ran them. They are the brains behind the radical ideas these four repeat and are where the real danger lies.
But you didn't answer the question.

The question was what exactly do you think he meant by it? Where exactly were they supposed to be going?
 

caseyedwards

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It’s very possible that in 2024 with the standards of racism possibly harsher the republicans nominee will be considered more racist than trump
 

MacMadame

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But if you want to change people, personal experiences and emotional resonance are far more effective than any amount of reason.
That's what I meant about whittling away. Arguing with facts is just going to make them double-down. But talking about how Trump's policies have hurt you or someone you know and not to make a point in an argument but just part of general living.
 

VGThuy

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There's something to be said about personal experience and emotional resonance being the most effective ways to change a lot of people's minds and it being more effective than "logic" or "reason".

I wrote out a much longer (if you can believe it) and even more boring story that I was going to share regarding how one of my friendships from college basically deteriorated when I came to visit home more than a year ago over Trump and his policies. I decided to spare you the longer story. Let's just say it's clear we were speaking different languages. We were using the same words but had wildly different definitions we were working with. Because of that, I found it nearly impossible to have a conversation. What happened instead was me holding back while a person who I considered a friend just yelled and used me as some perceived leftwing punching bag to vent at and to lecture to in a condescending way about how I do not listen to the "other side" i.e. watching Fox News and reading Breitbart.

He really feels this scary anger at "the enemy" and has a lot of confirmation bias (I guess we all do) in painting the entire left as villains in this cultural war. He also said something I felt was unforgivable about a whole group of people that revealed our incredibly different philosophies and understanding of basic civil rights, and he couldn't understand why I'd take it so personally.

The last time we spoke was a random text he sent me demanding I defend The College Board's adversity score and then linking a Sean Hannity video ranting about it. After explaining I hadn't had time to study the issue to give my opinion, he spoke to me in a condescending way, and I had enough. I'd love to be one of those people I used to be who would glady interact with people with different views, but I think it's becoming impossible for me now just because we don't see the world the same way even on a very basic level and I think that prevents a lot of conversations from really taking off.
 
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ballettmaus

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Did you somehow get the impression that I didn't understand the opinion piece or that I didn't get what you meant?
Nope. I was pretty sure you weren't as worried as I am.

Yes, Trump supporters will find ways to support Trump and there is little we can do about it. This is not unique to Trump supporters, nor is it unique to this particular time and place. I see no reason to be particularly pessimistic just because Trump supporters are behaving like human beings. This too shall pass, one way or another.
I'm mostly as pessimistic because the article seemed to be about the GOP rather than "ordinary" Trump supporters - although I'm not entirely convinced that the GOP acts the way that they do (only) because of cognitive dissonance.

That said, what happens once Trump leaves office? The article didn't mention how someone like a Trump supporter would respond then. So, would they keep holding on to the believe that they did the right thing? If they do, I fear it paves the way for a repeat and that their views will get passed on to future generations and that it all becomes a vicious cycle that the country can't break out of.



I don't think that many people are all that interested in how Trump supporters think nor are they interested in understanding them.

We have had reams of writing about Trump supporters since he was elected. If many people actually wanted to understand Trump supporters, they would already.
How do you understand a person who admits that Trump's policy are hurting them but they still support him? Cognitive dissonance certainly helps explain it.
 

Prancer

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because we don't see the world the same way even on a very basic level and I think that prevents a lot of conversations from really taking off.
This is a major problem in argument and is something I do not get across well in class. People do not wake up one morning and say "From now on, I will believe X for no reason at all!" If you intend to be persuasive, you have to take the time and effort to actually understand what has brought your audience to their point of view.

This is pretty easy to do if you are talking about something you don't care about. But when you do care about the subject, it requires enormous emotional energy, which requires a strong commitment to the process. Who has the time or energy?

I'm mostly as pessimistic because the article seemed to be about the GOP rather than "ordinary" Trump supporters - although I'm not entirely convinced that the GOP acts the way that they do (only) because of cognitive dissonance.
I am not sure what the substantive difference is here?

That said, what happens once Trump leaves office? The article didn't mention how someone like a Trump supporter would respond then. So, would they keep holding on to the believe that they did the right thing? If they do, I fear it paves the way for a repeat and that their views will get passed on to future generations and that it all becomes a vicious cycle that the country can't break out of.
Is the author supposed to have a crystal ball? There are way too many variables here to pretend to know what will happen when Trump is out of office. What will the economy do in the next few years? That will have more to do with how Trump supporters react to Trump's successor than just about anything else, IMO.

How do you understand a person who admits that Trump's policy are hurting them but they still support him? Cognitive dissonance certainly helps explain it.
A, while many on the left think that Trump's policies hurt his supporters, not all of his supporters agree with that characterization and B, there are people in the world who put principle ahead of self. Just because you do not share those principles does not make them any less meaningful to the people who hold them. For example, many farmers support Trump's trade policy even though it hurts them because they think that policy is good for the country as a whole. A lot of poor people would benefit from expanded social safety net programs, but they think taking money from the government is wrong, even if it would make their lives better.
 

topaz

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14,481
There's something to be said about personal experience and emotional resonance being the most effective ways to change a lot of people's minds and it being more effective than "logic" or "reason".

I wrote out a much longer (if you can believe it) and even more boring story that I was going to share regarding how one of my friendships from college basically deteriorated when I came to visit home more than a year ago over Trump and his policies. I decided to spare you the longer story. Let's just say it's clear we were speaking different languages. We were using the same words but had wildly different definitions we were working with. Because of that, I found it nearly impossible to have a conversation. What happened instead was me holding back while a person who I considered a friend just yelled and used me as some perceived leftwing punching bag to vent at and to lecture about in a condescending way about how I do not listen to the "other side" i.e. watching Fox News and reading Breitbart.

He really feels this scary anger at "the enemy" and has a lot of confirmation bias (I guess we all do) in painting the entire left as villains in this cultural war. He also said something I felt was unforgivable about a whole group of people that revealed our incredibly different philosophies and understanding of basic civil rights, and he couldn't understand why I'd take it so personally.

The last time we spoke was a random text he sent me demanding I defend The College Board's adversity score and then linking a Sean Hannity video ranting about it. After explaining I hadn't had time to study the issue to give my opinion, he spoke to me in a condescending way, and I had enough. I'd love to be one of those people I used to be who would glady interact with people with different views, but I think it's becoming impossible for me now just because we don't see the world the same way even on a very basic level and I think that prevents a lot of conversations from really taking off.
Amen to the entire post.

I've had to let go of folks that I thought as a work friends. One such person, who identified as a Christian. I could NOT GET OVER the racist messages she would support and link to in facebook. She would mention or like posts " Why do black people never mention that Africans sold them into slavery? "Black on Black crime is the leading cause of death amongst Blacks, why aren't blacks talking about this?", "Poor people have been voting for democrats for 50 years and they're still poor"(depicting a black family, actually a black women lying on a dirty mattress with 5 kids sleeping on her). So I confronted her on these "memes" and articles. I came to the conclusion that she is a racist and a product of our environment. That environment is that we all have grown up in a white supremacist society that sees just about everything through a white prism. The implicit bias within everyone who has grown up in a white supremacist society experiences this.

Needless to say, I do not communicate with her anymore. Sometimes we have to cut people out of lives who do not "fit" anymore. This is especially true when one becomes "woke". This is can a culture, spiritual, and political awakening.
 
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Vagabond

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There's something to be said about personal experience and emotional resonance being the most effective ways to change a lot of people's minds and it being more effective than "logic" or "reason".

....

He really feels this scary anger at "the enemy" and has a lot of confirmation bias (I guess we all do) in painting the entire left as villains in this cultural war.
Confirmation bias is normal, but that doesn't mean we can't educate ourselves by checking facts, reading different points of view, and learning about the experiences of people whose lives and backgrounds are different from ours.
This is a major problem in argument and is something I do not get across well in class. People do not wake up one morning and say "From now on, I will believe X for no reason at all!" If you intend to be persuasive, you have to take the time and effort to actually understand what has brought your audience to their point of view.
A starting point might be to get them to understand what has brought other people to their point of view.

When I lived in the United Kingdom, I had free access to a wide range of newspapers. I would read both opinion pieces and articles (some of which were transparent examples of advocacy journalism) with contrasting perspectives on the same subject. Reading things about specifically British (or Scottish, or regional English) issues often made me perceive how my own background as an American had shaped my perspective.

I've had to let go of folks that I thought as a work friends. One such person, who identified as a Christian. I could NOT GET OVER the racist messages she would support and link to in facebook. She would mention or like posts " Why do black people never mention that Africans sold them into slavery? "Black on Black crime is the leading cause of death amongst Blacks, why aren't blacks talking about this?", "Poor people have been voting for democrats for 50 years and they're still poor"(depicting a black family, actually a black women lying on a dirty mattress with 5 kids sleeping on her). So I confronted her on these "memes" and articles. I came to the conclusion that she is a racist and a product of our environment.
Not that this would necessarily have had the desired effect, but you might have mentioned that black writers cover these very subjects and that she could easily find examples, especially if she asked for help at her local public library. 🤷‍♂️
 

ballettmaus

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I am not sure what the substantive difference is here?
Between Trump supporters and the GOP? The GOP is part of the checks and balances. If they neglect to take part in either, it weakens US democracy.


Is the author supposed to have a crystal ball?
Of course not. But often there is a general response or likely response, something along those lines.



A lot of poor people would benefit from expanded social safety net programs, but they think taking money from the government is wrong, even if it would make their lives better.
Something else that puzzles me. ;)
 

Vagabond

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I have no idea how that differs from what I have said, but okay.
It might help if you asked questions in complete sentences. :shuffle:

I thought you were asking if the opinions being read had to come from writers who completely differed from your students in some way. I think it's probably easier for a student to understand how the writers in such a group all start from certain basic assumptions that the students do not share, e.g., because the writers were British and the students are American. But I think it could also work if the writers and students were all Americans. Even if a particular student does not immediately spot the assumptions of a writer with whom he agrees, he can probably still see that the other writers have assumptions, identify what those writers are, and then articulate his own assumptions.

If that wasn't what you were asking, please clarify.
 

Reuven

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Trump claimed today that AOC, Omar, Pressley and Tlaib are "very racist" and "not very smart". He was on his way to pay respects to the late Justice Stevens as he tweeted that. Such a classy man. I guess, we should be happy that he didn't tweet it while he was paying his respects.
He has no respect to pay. He respects no one, except possibly Putin and Kim Jung Un.
 

Susan1

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How do you understand a person who admits that Trump's policy are hurting them but they still support him? Cognitive dissonance certainly helps explain it.
How about tell trump (I'm not even calling him 45 anymore, because he does not count as being the 45th president) supporters that he will only take away their medicare, social security, health care, food stamps because that's what they voted for him for. If they don't want those things, let the people who did not vote for him keep them.
 

skatesindreams

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DOJ tells Mueller to limit testimony to his report, sources say
To what degree can they order him to do so?

From his past testimony to Congress:
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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To what degree can they order him to do so?

From his past testimony to Congress:
They said he had to stick to the published data, but there really isn't any way they can enforce him to do anything. Albeit, he's said all along, he'll stick to the published data. The only key difference between the two is the DOJ doesn't want him to discuss anything they considered privileged (those things they didn't want released to the press and American people). It remains to be seen if Mueller considers the entire report to be "published data" and not just what the DOJ opted to release.
 

judiz

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How do you understand a person who admits that Trump's policy are hurting them but they still support him? Cognitive dissonance certainly helps explain it.
Good question. I have a Facebook friend who has a teenage daughter, she is extremely overprotective of her daughter. Even after the remarks Trump has made about women and their physical appearance, she has no issue with what he says. How can you support a man who would treat someone else’s daughter like garbage?
 

rfisher

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Good question. I have a Facebook friend who has a teenage daughter, she is extremely overprotective of her daughter. Even after the remarks Trump has made about women and their physical appearance, she has no issue with what he says. How can you support a man who would treat someone else’s daughter like garbage?
Because it's not their daughter. People do this all the time for lots of things. Moreover, they often focus on one issue that means something to them and then ignore everything else. I had this discussion with my dad when HRC ran against Obama. He actually liked HRC quite a lot, but was going to vote for the Republican because of one thing: abortion. I still don't know why he fixated on that because he couldn't really have cared less if someone had an abortion. He certainly wasn't going to adopt any child or help pay for their care. But, it was a point that was driven home in his church and he clung to it regardless of any other issues. A whole lot of people are single issue voters. They just close their eyes to all the other aspects of the candidate they vote for.
 

rfisher

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That thinking gave us the situation we now "enjoy"; with all its' consequences.
Yes, it did. And has before and will again. Until Trump, the US has always managed to weather 4-8 years of any presidency. Post Trump, who knows. There have been some pretty bad presidents throughout our history, but due to the difference in mass communication, only a small percentage of the population was really impacted. The rise of Twitter had changed things in ways I don't think anybody anticipated. It's a new era and historians are going to have a field day with this 60-100 years from now.
 

Vagabond

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Has Trump choked on a hamburger? Is there a tie in the Senate? Is Mother Pence ill?

There are not that many unscheduled chores Pence has to attend to
The Trump Administration has finally managed to come up with an explanation, and it doesn't pass the smell test: Behind Pence’s Air Force Two cancellation: A drug dealer.

Pence did not need to be "called back to the White House" because of something going on at the event in New Hampshire.
 

MacMadame

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I think we all know this but here's an article on how the GOP doesn't give a crap about the deficit at all when they are in power.


The interesting part (to me) is what TPTB in the GOP have said to Trump because it shows their reasoning and that they are pretty open about not carrying about the future, only about the next election.
 

caseyedwards

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The big problem is Americans are just not going to vote for anyone who proposes a real solution to the deficit problem. Americans of all classes but especially the very poor and very rich are totally undertaxed!
 

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