Dangers of a Trump Presidency--Part 7

ballettmaus

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There were huge detention centers under Clinton bush and Obama. Trump did not start this or create it.
Trump may not have built the detention centers but from all that I have read, he did start treating migrant and asylum seekers inhumanely and like severe criminals.

It's not about who built detention centers. It's about how they are used and how the detainees are treated.
 

caseyedwards

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Trump may not have built the detention centers but from all that I have read, he did start treating migrant and asylum seekers inhumanely and like severe criminals.

It's not about who built detention centers. It's about how they are used and how the detainees are treated.
Here’s what happened!!!
-The centers were built for single men
-Starting in 2014 huge numbers of families and unaccompanied minors started coming
-The centers are not built for that
-No one in dC cared enough to do anything about repealing the law banning deportation of Central American minors or making the centers family or kid friendly In 2014,2015,2016
-trump becomes president and migration slows down
-everything trump tries to restrict immigration fails
-huge massive explosion of migrants!! Most ever
  • republicans can’t get any democrats votes to fund expansion of detention centers
  • the whole system is collapsing
  • bad conditions for some
  • There is just no way to keep up with the huge explosion of migrants
  • Democrats failing to come up with alternative system
 

BlueRidge

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Trump may not have built the detention centers but from all that I have read, he did start treating migrant and asylum seekers inhumanely and like severe criminals.

It's not about who built detention centers. It's about how they are used and how the detainees are treated.
And you know what? Trump is president right now. Obama isn't. Now if those who think Obama is to blame would agree for Obama to come back and be president instead of Trump, we could pressure Obama rather than Trump to fix the situation.

I'm all for that!

Until then, Trump is president and the executive branch has the power to immediately make changes to what is happening to asylum seekers. He can close the detention centers. He can order Customs and Border Patrol to take different action than they are taking now.
 

caseyedwards

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And you know what? Trump is president right now. Obama isn't. Now if those who think Obama is to blame would agree for Obama to come back and be president instead of Trump, we could pressure Obama rather than Trump to fix the situation.

I'm all for that!

Until then, Trump is president and the executive branch has the power to immediately make changes to what is happening to asylum seekers. He can close the detention centers. He can order Customs and Border Patrol to take different action than they are taking now.
No way! The courts would block anything trump tried like they have been doing since he became president. You know courts have ruled everything trump has done illegal. They have ruled detention in Mexico illegal. His plan of detention in Mexico was a way to give some relief to American detention centers and courts ruled it illegal. If trump said Close all detention centers and move everyone to gitmos that would probably be illegal. He’s not going to make catch and release official. He’s trying to end that.

I will always ask what’s the democrats alternative to detention
 

DORISPULASKI

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these days I am thinking..

2020 Trump election strategy

"When (the GOP) sends (Its) people,
they're bringing drugs,


they're bringing crime.


They're rapists.


And some, I assume, are good people.




Projection by Trump when he called out Mexico?
 
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BlueRidge

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Here's an article with a few more details on the children being moved:

Government moves migrant kids after poor conditions exposed

The U.S. government has removed most of the children from a remote Border Patrol station in Texas following reports that more than 300 children were detained there, caring for each other with inadequate food, water and sanitation.


Just 30 children remained at the facility near El Paso Monday, said Rep. Veronica Escobar after her office was briefed on the situation by an official with Customs and Border Protection.

Although it’s unclear where all the children held at Clint have been moved, Escobar said some were sent to another facility on the north side of El Paso called Border Patrol Station 1. Escobar said it’s a temporary site with roll-out mattresses, showers, medical facilities and air conditioning.


But Clara Long, an attorney who interviewed children at Border Patrol Station 1 last week, said conditions were not necessarily better there.
Now Vice President Pence says we need more money for bigger better detention centers. We do need more money for the border situation, but children are not supposed to be held for more than 72 hours.

So here's a better answer, make sure asylum seekers have legal representation. Because as this article says, they don't need to be detained, they will follow the required process:

Almost 100% of asylum-seeking families with legal aid are showing up to court, analysis finds (Dallas News)
 

mag

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Now @BlueRidge, that nice Mr. Pence told Jake Tapper that over 90% did not show up for their court dates. Who are you going to believe, Pence or the enemy of the people? I know who Trump supporters will believe.
 

Sparks

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Some Trumpers are crying FAKE NEWS about the horrific conditions in the detention camps, citing what is happening in Deming, NM. The difference is Deming has set up a shelter for migrants dumped in the small town. NM is one of the poorest states in the US, and Deming is a very poor town. They are doing a better job that the Federal Government.
 

DORISPULASKI

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We're really good at this," said Chris Brice, who runs the shelter and also serves as Deming's jail warden and assistant county manager.

The city is spending about $15,000 a day to accommodate the migrants, Brice said.

"We don't even discuss the politics of it here," Brice added. "It's what we do or they would be out there on the street trying to find their own way. And that's unacceptable to everybody."

The support has come from a wide variety of sources in Deming, from local churches and NGOs, to individual volunteers.
i would be proud to pay taxes to a town like that.
 

BlueRidge

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Thanks @Sparks that was an informative article.

I'm thinking about the question why do we have immigrant detention centers to begin with (and yes I understand there were detention centers under Obama, but no that doesn't cancel out having them under Trump except for people whose brains have been eaten alive by partisanship.)

Do we hold people in indefinite detention if they are arrested for a misdemeanor? Usually they are charged and released with a court date. It is not considered lawful to hold people indefinitely who have not been convicted of a crime.

Yet we are holding people who cross the border undocumented in detention for long periods, even though it is a misdemeanor and they have not been convicted, that is to say afforded due process. Many people who are legally requesting asylum so that they are not violated any law are put in the detention centers.

It goes against our legal processes to do this. The detention centers should all be closed down and funding approved to expedite the processes of dealing with people who cross the border.

There is no justification for the detention centers.

Now none of this has as far as I can see anything to do with the ICE raids Trump called off which were in regard to people with deportation orders. Trump seems to be mixing and matching when it comes to immigration issues.
 

Sparks

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I'm thinking about the question why do we have immigrant detention centers to begin with (and yes I understand there were detention centers under Obama, but no that doesn't cancel out having them under Trump except for people whose brains have been eaten alive by partisanship.)
Unlike Trump, Obama wasn't forcing family separations.
 

caseyedwards

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Here's an article with a few more details on the children being moved:

Government moves migrant kids after poor conditions exposed



Now Vice President Pence says we need more money for bigger better detention centers. We do need more money for the border situation, but children are not supposed to be held for more than 72 hours.

So here's a better answer, make sure asylum seekers have legal representation. Because as this article says, they don't need to be detained, they will follow the required process:

Almost 100% of asylum-seeking families with legal aid are showing up to court, analysis finds (Dallas News)
The program where the government assigned legal aid to everyone was very successful but not practical anymore as the numbers exploded to 300,000 in 3 months!! I mean you can’t have that program now without overwhelming the legal aid and creating massive backlogs. So many great ideas but once again the overwhelming flood make any government program like that unrealistic now. It’s not even worth doing anymore because maybe if there were like 500 month it would make sense not 100000 a month.

Yes the program was a massive success and no it can’t be done anymore.
 

BlueRidge

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Unlike Trump, Obama wasn't forcing family separations.
You know what though? There were people criticizing and protesting Obama's policies toward undocumented immigrants. And shockingly they weren't Tea Party Republicans. Or for that matter any of the Trumpians now telling us how bad Obama was.
 

caseyedwards

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Thanks @Sparks that was an informative article.

I'm thinking about the question why do we have immigrant detention centers to begin with (and yes I understand there were detention centers under Obama, but no that doesn't cancel out having them under Trump except for people whose brains have been eaten alive by partisanship.)

Do we hold people in indefinite detention if they are arrested for a misdemeanor? Usually they are charged and released with a court date. It is not considered lawful to hold people indefinitely who have not been convicted of a crime.

Yet we are holding people who cross the border undocumented in detention for long periods, even though it is a misdemeanor and they have not been convicted, that is to say afforded due process. Many people who are legally requesting asylum so that they are not violated any law are put in the detention centers.

It goes against our legal processes to do this. The detention centers should all be closed down and funding approved to expedite the processes of dealing with people who cross the border.

There is no justification for the detention centers.

Now none of this has as far as I can see anything to do with the ICE raids Trump called off which were in regard to people with deportation orders. Trump seems to be mixing and matching when it comes to immigration issues.
But why release the people into the United States when it’s their goal to enter the United States? Being released to wait for a court date is a massive reward for entering the United States without a visa.
 

mag

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There is no justification for the detention centers.
I can see a need for somewhere where immigrants requesting asylum could go when they cross the border. Somewhere with a shower and a bed where they could meet with a lawyer. Not a detention centre, more of a helping centre. I know, I am dreaming, but it would probably save money in the end especially if there were also nurses who could assess for communicable diseases and provide vaccinations. From that centre they could also get information about immigrant services, housing, education etc.

Now none of this has as far as I can see anything to do with the ICE raids Trump called off which were in regard to people with deportation orders. Trump seems to be mixing and matching when it comes to immigration issues.
Trump does not understand, nor does he care to understand, anything about immigration. I am sure he doesn’t know the difference between someone with a deportation order and someone waiting for a court date. The knows only two things: they are brown, and they work cheap at his gold clubs.
 

caseyedwards

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I can see a need for somewhere where immigrants requesting asylum could go when they cross the border. Somewhere with a shower and a bed where they could meet with a lawyer. Not a detention centre, more of a helping centre. I know, I am dreaming, but it would probably save money in the end especially if there were also nurses who could assess for communicable diseases and provide vaccinations. From that centre they could also get information about immigrant services, housing, education etc.



Trump does not understand, nor does he care to understand, anything about immigration. I am sure he doesn’t know the difference between someone with a deportation order and someone waiting for a court date. The knows only two things: they are brown, and they work cheap at his gold clubs.
What you are talking about do exist! The problem is they were built for 500 people and now they have 5000!! Places designed for 5000 have 25000. A case can be made for repealing all the post 1924 immigration laws and establishing Ellis islands all along the southern border.

The issue is that when you have people who no longer believe in preventing entry to undocumented people and who oppose reporting undocumented people you still need some kind of system that works. Like the Ellis island system
 

Vagabond

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Reading of the Mueller report. I'm watching now.

Anyone intimidated by the prospect of listening to the entire public version will be happy to know it's a dramatic reading by well-known actors of selected portions of the report. The running time is about 77 minutes.

:watch:

Note to Zachary Quinto: The word "lambasted" rhymes with "masted." It is not pronounced "lamb-basted." :COP:

ETA: "Roy Cohn did not take notes!" :giggle:

Further ETA: The inescapable conclusion to be drawn from the report.
 
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VGThuy

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I know people who work in immigration law and believe me, they were critical of Obama's policies. If anyone would be critical of the government's immigration policies, it'd be people working in the field. They are absolutely horrified by immigration policies under Trump and his crony Stephen Miller (who really has a hard on for the suffering of migrants). It's not the same, and people who are trying to equate it are simply more interested in calling "lefty" people or Trump critics hypocrites than they actually care about what's going on with those in detention. I mean it's conversations like this that reminds me that people really are out-of-touch with conversations that have been happening for years. Do some people think people only started fighting for immigration reform and more leniency during Trump just to stick it to Trump? Why do you think the image of the perceived "fractured" left is coming from? It's because people have been having these debates and arguments for many years if not decades about this. But there's a baseline that many people who pay attention to this debate have that Trump and his administration has crossed and invokes some horrible imagery of treatment towards human beings though human rights violations and stripping away of dignities have been happening for some time because our system itself is set up that way.
 
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caseyedwards

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I know people who work in immigration law and believe me, they were critical of Obama's policies. If anyone would be critical of the government's immigration policies, it'd be people working in the field. They are absolutely horrified by immigration policies under Trump and his crony Stephen Miller (who really has a hard on for the suffering of migrants). It's not the same, and people who are trying to equate it are simply more interested in calling "lefty" people or Trump critics hypocrites than they actually care about what's going on with those in detention. I mean it's conversations like this that reminds me that people really are out-of-touch with conversations that have been happening for years. Do some people think people only started fighting for immigration reform and more leniency during Trump just to stick it to Trump? Why do you think the image of the perceived "fractured" left is coming from? It's because people have been having these debates and arguments for many years if not decades about this. But there's a baseline that many people who pay attention to this debate have that Trump and his administration has crossed and invokes some horrible imagery of treatment towards human beings though human rights violations and stripping away of dignities have been happening for some time because our system itself is set up that way.
But it’s a fact that the immigration professionals in the government can’t deal with the enormous influx! American law says Central American minors can’t ever be deported. American law says they can’t be held longer than 30 days. So you have the huge motivating factor of the never deport Central American minors law and the fact that because minors can’t be held more than 30 days there was no incentive to fund kid friendly detention centers! Then you have 300,000 in 3 months!! Impossible to keep things sanitary everywhere.

One major effort of Miller was to repeal the ban on deportation of Central American minors. It didn’t go anywhere. Its never going anywhere. There’s nothing democrats oppose more.
 

Japanfan

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She said "You want me to care, but I don't, not one bit," went into some rant about how I needed to listen to Jesus more, and said "more children die from abortion." She sounds so Christian. :rolleyes:
Did you point out to her that fetuses are aborted, not children? Not that it would have made a difference.

I read recently that what has been said to be a fetal heartbeat at six weeks actually isn't that at all. Unfortunately I don't have the link.
 

Japanfan

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It’s like speeding! Speeding isn’t allowed and is frequently called illegal but you get fined and can be jailed if you get enough infractions. Entering America isn’t allowed unless you have a visa or in asylum process from a port of entry. Another word for illegals is unauthorized people. If something isn’t allowed by law doing it can be called illegal. No?
It's the action that is illegal, not the person. And I believe 'undocumented person' is commonly used - and is correct in denoting that person does that documentation necessary to legally reside in a certain place.
 

Vash01

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Trump is blaming the democrats for lack of funding for the detention centers. Is anyone surprised?
 

caseyedwards

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Trump is blaming the democrats for lack of funding for the detention centers. Is anyone surprised?
You may support the democrats wanting to virtually eliminate funding for the agency that deports criminal aliens And slash beds for migrants but it is something that’s been horribly delaying the border money

It's the action that is illegal, not the person. And I believe 'undocumented person' is commonly used - and is correct in denoting that person does that documentation necessary to legally reside in a certain place.
The action is illegal but it’s just a shorthand
 

BlueRidge

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There's a good article right now in The New York Review of Books that gives a brief look at the history and nature of concentration camps & argues that the current U.S. migrant detention system definitely fits into the category of "concentration camp."


This article to me is a guide to what we should be doing now. To me the issue of whether the US detention of immigrants should be called concentration camps is secondary to the history here that shows very well that allowing this kind of indefinite detention without trial for people who are seen as outsiders to a country leads to inhumanity inevitably.

To a certain extent this is why it matters that the history of the current detention be seen as going back to the Obama years. I wish people would stop flinching at that. There's no question that it was not the same as under Trump, but that is the history this article shows.

We should have stopped the detention under Obama, we didn't. Anyone who thinks that means the most important issue is that liberals are hypocrites should exit the discussion here. We need to stop the detention now.

What is happening now in the Congress is that Democrats and Republicans are rushing to increase funding for the detention centers and programs that go with them. Yes we need to relieve conditions but I stand with AOC on this: the detention centers need to be closed, no children should be held in detention camps.

The current legislation should only pass if it contains the steps to end this system of detention centers. I'm pragmatic, we have to help those who are there now, and we can't get the votes to totally close it down immediately but every act that Democrats assent to should include the ironclad goal of ending this detention in a short period of time.

Liberals angry with Trump administration treatment of migrant children force House leaders to amend border bill (Washington Post)

(Aside, the above headline is indicative of the problems we have in this country. Progressives and the Hispanic caucus are not acting out of anger at Trump, they are acting out of horror at the conditions children are being held in. But journalists cannot see outside of filter that says everything is just a partisan fight.)
 

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