Dangers of a Trump Presidency--Part 7

caseyedwards

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Just tried to listen to Mike Pence on Jake Tapper, State of the Union. That man (Mike) is pure evil. He is worse than Trump because he actually knows what they are doing to those children is horrific. Could the House pass a bill right now appropriating money specifically to provide basic human necessities, clothing, food, bedding, personal care items, for the children currently being held at the border? Just a stand alone bill and make the Senate either pass it or show the world the monsters they truly are?

ETA: here is the link https://youtu.be/aH4bqFQHVSg
Of course. But the democrats policy is for all the detainees to be released and not held. For their care to be done by charities who are reimbursed. They want to shut down all the detainee centers. That’s why democrats insisted on slashing ice beds and won.

Total catch and release! Open borders.
 

Vash01

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I believe Zemgirl was referring to actual Germany, not countries occupied by Germany.
What about Dachau concentration camp near Munich? Is it not in Germany?

The only one I have seen is Auschwitz-Birkenau, near Krakow. I have no desire to see more. :(
 

caseyedwards

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I forgot if it was this thread or a related one where we spoke about calling people “illegal”. I found this twitter thread explaining legally why the term “illegal” isn’t factually accurate either if we want to get technical and into legal jargon.

It’s like speeding! Speeding isn’t allowed and is frequently called illegal but you get fined and can be jailed if you get enough infractions. Entering America isn’t allowed unless you have a visa or in asylum process from a port of entry. Another word for illegals is unauthorized people. If something isn’t allowed by law doing it can be called illegal. No?
 

barbarafan

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I watched her interview on msnbc. Some past judges said it was first degree rape. Trump’s behavior is consistent with what the Access Hollywood tape showed. Joyce Vance had some very good comments about women who were raped. They often blame themselves. We see this happening with this woman.

In NY state there is no statute of limitation, so Trump could still be charged, but the victim does not want to bring charges.
After this interview I totally believed this young girl was raped by Trump
 

PrincessLeppard

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What about Dachau concentration camp near Munich? Is it not in Germany?

The only one I have seen is Auschwitz-Birkenau, near Krakow. I have no desire to see more. :(
Dachau was a concentration camp, not an extermination camp.

There is a gas chamber at Dachau, but it was rarely used.
 

Sparks

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I take offence to the word, "extermination" camp. They were death camps.
"Extermination camp", as Liz Cheney invokes the language of the view that the Jewish people were vermin and and an infestation. Just like the language used by Trump to describe people coming here from Central America.
 

mag

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I take offence to the word, "extermination" camp. They were death camps.
"Extermination camp", as Liz Cheney invokes the language of the view that the Jewish people were vermin and and an infestation. Just like the language used by Trump to describe people coming here from Central America.
Excellent point. I did not think of it that way. I think I was the one who brought the term into this current discussion so I am sorry about that. I won’t edit my post because that will make reading the thread no understandable, but I won’t use it again.
 

Zemgirl

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I take offence to the word, "extermination" camp. They were death camps.
"Extermination camp", as Liz Cheney invokes the language of the view that the Jewish people were vermin and and an infestation. Just like the language used by Trump to describe people coming here from Central America.
People didn't just happen to die in these camps, they were deliberately sent there to be exterminated. Jewish people, and others that the Nazis considered less than human. I don't care how Liz Cheney feels about it. We shouldn't have to mince words when discussing atrocities.

Yad Vashem uses this terminology as well.

I agree that it is important to understand that labeling people as undesirables is dangerous. We know this from the Holocaust and from other atrocities. Even if it doesn't lead to killing people, no person deserves to be treated as less than human.
 
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Reuven

Official FSU Alte Kacher
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She said "You want me to care, but I don't, not one bit," went into some rant about how I needed to listen to Jesus more, and said "more children die from abortion." She sounds so Christian. :rolleyes:
if she actually “listened” to Jesus, she’d remember Matthew 25:34-46, a section that apparently is cut out of their bibles. I’m a Jew and even I’m familiar with that one.
Extermination camp", as Liz Cheney invokes the language of the view that the Jewish people were vermin and and an infestation.
But that IS how the Nazi Reich saw us.
 

DORISPULASKI

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This editorial from the Salt Lake Tribune does a great job of explaining why AOC is right to call out the horrors of camps at our border as concentration camps.

People have a moral right to seek a better life, and a legal right to seek asylum. If our border and immigration system isn’t up to the task, that’s not their fault, it is ours
.
And

Good, caring, moral Utahns, and their elected representatives, should be shouting bloody murder over this extended and deliberate abuse of human rights. If nothing else, our separation-of-powers expert, Sen. Mike Lee, should be demanding congressional oversight and authorization of what is and isn’t happening.

Our nation is operating concentration camps for refugee children. We need to stop denying that and decide if we are comfortable with that fact. And how we will explain it to our children.
Cracks in the GOP dam,...or the Zion Curtain, if you will...- not surprisingly from Mormon Salt Lake, as Mormons have an institutional memory of the times when they were a despised religious minority.

The editorial speaks of a welcoming Utah Compact, a 2010 compact,


It is now more controversial than in 2010, but Utahns are still trying to be


welcoming to all people of good will.
 

clairecloutier

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There's a good article right now in The New York Review of Books that gives a brief look at the history and nature of concentration camps & argues that the current U.S. migrant detention system definitely fits into the category of "concentration camp."



Some relevant excerpts:

Without a significant government effort to reverse direction, conditions in every camp system tend to deteriorate over time. Governments rarely make that kind of effort on behalf of people they are willing to lock up without trial in the first place. And history shows that legislatures do not close camps against the will of an executive.

What kind of conditions can we expect to develop in these border camps? The longer a camp system stays open, the more likely it is that vital things will go wrong: detainees will contract contagious diseases and suffer from malnutrition and mental illness. We have already seen that current detention practices have resulted in children and adults succumbing to influenza, staph infections, and sepsis. The US is now poised to inflict harm on tens of thousands more, perhaps hundreds of thousands more.

Along with such inevitable consequences, every significant camp system has introduced new horrors of its own, crises that were unforeseen when that system was opened. We have yet to discover what those will be for these American border camps. But they will happen. Every country thinks it can do detention better when it starts these projects. But no good way to conduct mass indefinite detention has yet been devised; the system always degrades.
Also, a plainspoken editorial about the crisis from the Salt Lake City Tribune:

 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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I have to admit to being somewhat troubled by this whole debate over terms.

I don't know if concentration camp is appropriate and I don't really think it matters. I think what is more important is to describe the conditions of detention in these facilities, physical conditions as well as legal conditions. And call attention to those facts. If this was done effectively, maybe decades from now someone would be comparing something they felt was unacceptable to the immigration detention centers of the early 21st Century.
 

caseyedwards

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And what is the replacement system! Democrats want all detention centers shut down. But charities are overwhelmed too. They can’t take all the people. So what’s the replacement system?
 

mag

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I think the debate over terms is important because of the conditioning that has occurred since Trump started his run for President. He has systematically dehumanized immigrants. Vast numbers of Americans have been numbed to what is happening and no longer see any thing wrong with children being held in camps with conditions worse than you would find in many animal shelters. Shock, and the use of the phrase “concentration camp” has been used to shock, is what may be needed to get through to people that what is happening is not only wrong, it is an urgent wrong that needs to be changed right away. That, at least, is my take on it.
 

caseyedwards

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I think the debate over terms is important because of the conditioning that has occurred since Trump started his run for President. He has systematically dehumanized immigrants. Vast numbers of Americans have been numbed to what is happening and no longer see any thing wrong with children being held in camps with conditions worse than you would find in many animal shelters. Shock, and the use of the phrase “concentration camp” has been used to shock, is what may be needed to get through to people that what is happening is not only wrong, it is an urgent wrong that needs to be changed right away. That, at least, is my take on it.
There were huge detention centers under Clinton bush and Obama. Trump did not start this or create it. It is US law that says you can’t enter America through the rio grande or climb a wall. You need to go through a port of entry. Seeking asylum does not entitle you to enter the United States however you want. It’s a violation. You will be processed. If you have kids they will Be processed too
 

mag

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There were huge detention centers under Clinton bush and Obama. Trump did not start this or create it. It is US law that says you can’t enter America through the rio grande or climb a wall. You need to go through a port of entry. Seeking asylum does not entitle you to enter the United States however you want. It’s a violation. You will be processed. If you have kids they will Be processed too
I think this post proves my point. Even more shock is going to be needed to get some people to understand what has changed over the past 2.5 years.
 

mag

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Not absolutely sure how to link to a FB post, but here goes:

Edited: link didn’t work

(It shows a photo of the rosaries taken from immigrants at the southern border and then makes the comment that people were horrified at seeing the wedding rings taken from holocaust victims and wondered how the human rights abuses could ever go so far)
 

caseyedwards

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I think this post proves my point. Even more shock is going to be needed to get some people to understand what has changed over the past 2.5 years.
The only thing that’s really changed is the enormous influx of family units and unaccompanied minors. The numbers have exploded and are unprecedented and congress just votes to slash detention capacity rather than do anything to fund the Extra help needed
 

clairecloutier

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I do think the debate over terms is somewhat important. Although I don't know if I can articulate clearly why, I will give a try.

I don't think it's enough to just to publicize the poor living conditions in the camps without focusing on the political purpose/implications. There are a lot of situations, in a lot of places, where daily living conditions are significantly unpleasant or unhealthy to some degree or other. This may be the case in regular prisons, and in impoverished lower-class communities in the U.S. and elsewhere. Any such situations are regrettable and bear further investigation. But to simply add bad living conditions in the camps to this list, without any distinction, may lead to people tuning out & ignoring the information.

What's happening in the "immigration detention centers" is different in a historical and political sense and identifying it as such, may lead to greater impact. These centers or camps belong within the definition of concentration camps (again, read the NY Review of Books article), which have an understood historical significance.

If it can be understood (and admitted) that these detention centers/camps are, in fact, equivalent to concentration camps, then hopefully that conveys a resulting understanding that they need to end and that their existence as presently constituted is not acceptable, defensible, or morally right. Whereas if the detention camps are seen as just another injustice, one of many suffered by underprivileged persons, without a specific political dimension, it's easier to dismiss.
 

caseyedwards

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I do think the debate over terms is somewhat important. Although I don't know if I can articulate clearly why, I will give a try.

I don't think it's enough to just to publicize the poor living conditions in the camps without focusing on the political purpose/implications. There are a lot of situations, in a lot of places, where daily living conditions are significantly unpleasant or unhealthy to some degree or other. This may be the case in regular prisons, and in impoverished lower-class communities in the U.S. and elsewhere. Any such situations are regrettable and bear further investigation. But to simply add bad living conditions in the camps to this list, without any distinction, may lead to people tuning out & ignoring the information.

What's happening in the "immigration detention centers" is different in a historical and political sense and identifying it as such, may lead to greater impact. These centers or camps belong within the definition of concentration camps (again, read the NY Review of Books article), which have an understood historical significance.

If it can be understood (and admitted) that these detention centers/camps are, in fact, equivalent to concentration camps, then hopefully that conveys a resulting understanding that they need to end and that their existence as presently constituted is not acceptable, defensible, or morally right. Whereas if the detention camps are seen as just another injustice, one of many suffered by underprivileged persons, without a specific political dimension, it's easier to dismiss.
But then what’s the law of the United States? So everyone agrees that detaining migrants is bad. Where are they sent? How are they processed? What’s the new system?
 

Sparks

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if she actually “listened” to Jesus, she’d remember Matthew 25:34-46, a section that apparently is cut out of their bibles. I’m a Jew and even I’m familiar with that one.

But that IS how the Nazi Reich saw us.
I understand. I'm upset that those words are used by Trump supporters.
I monitor Trumpers on FB. They say the media are vermin (clear dog whistle). They say we are being infested with immigrants.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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I understand. I'm upset that those words are used by Trump supporters.
I monitor Trumpers on FB. They say the media are vermin (clear dog whistle). They say we are being infested with immigrants.
And, I suspect they haven't met a single one. I unfriend any Trumpist on FB. Not just because I don't want to see their nonsense, but you suddenly get ads you don't want to see. I don't post political memes on social media.
 

Sparks

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And, I suspect they haven't met a single one. I unfriend any Trumpist on FB. Not just because I don't want to see their nonsense, but you suddenly get ads you don't want to see. I don't post political memes on social media.
I'm not friends with these people. Their pages are open for all to see.
 
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caseyedwards

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And, I suspect they haven't met a single one. I unfriend any Trumpist on FB. Not just because I don't want to see their nonsense, but you suddenly get ads you don't want to see. I don't post political memes on social media.
Impossible!! It’s not believable that after 300,000 people entered America illegally in just the last three months that almost every American hasn’t encountered an illegal immigrant! There could Be more than 11 million. All the trump supporting Iowa and ny farmers employ illegal immigrant and are happy to do so to save money but also support trump because it’s government responsibility to enforce the law not theirs. They would prefer the law to be enforced.
 

rfisher

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I'm not friends with these people. Their pages are open for all to see.
How did they get into your news feed? I don't have any people or organizations that I don't follow, but I'm very select in what I allow in my feed.
 

Sparks

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They are not on my newsfeed. I discovered them a long time ago during the Obama administration via someone who was once my FB friend - before I discovered he hated Obama. Now that person is a NeverTrumper.
I look at certain pages and go down the rabbit hole from there. It's complicated. :saint:
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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They are not on my newsfeed. I discovered them a long time ago during the Obama administration via someone who was once my FB friend - before I discovered he hated Obama. Now that person is a NeverTrumper.
I look at certain pages and go down the rabbit hole from there. It's complicated. :saint:
You know what happened to Alice.
 

BlueRidge

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I was unplugged over the weekend when Trump called off the ICE raids and said he'd give Congress two weeks to fix the situation. Now what the heck is looking for Congress to do?

Congress can certainly appropriate more money for immigration judges and personnel to speed up processing asylum seekers which is one of the things that needs to be done, but that isn't going to change anything immediately.

And in any case, Mitch McConnell isn't going to allow the Senate to consider anything the Democrats put forward so where do we go from here?

It seems to me in the immediate term it is the administration that needs to take action to shut down the detention centers and take an alternative approach.

What is being suggested by Democrats or Republicans?
 

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