Dangers of a Trump Presidency--Part 7

caseyedwards

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12,534
Good. Then stop talking about visas when this is about Trump suggesting he approves of the idea of shooting migrants at the border. Because it doesn't matter why anyone is talking about it. What matters is that they are talking about it and there is not a single argument in the world that makes it right.
You can never solve the illegal alien problem if you pretend there is no such thing anymore!
 

mag

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,790
The process has gone on for hundreds of year. How do you think European colonisation of most of the world happened? Even the phrase "I'm not racist but ...." has a foundation in cultural superiority and a thought process that stereotypes individuals based on race, religion, gender or otherwise are less equal than those who think it. It is why wars happen and people are killed for the sake of ideology. Trump's campaign was largely driven on demonization and victimisation of those less fortunate and can't defend themselves.

You even get first generation immigrants who turn pretty quickly on others who are also looking to immigrate. How dare they try to start a new life in a new country? When did exactly the same thing.

Empathy is sadly missing from mainstream politics these days.
I agree there have been terrible things going on for years, but what the Republicans are doing is something quite specific and intentional. They are systematically grooming the American public to believe that some people are not only not as valuable, but are actually not even human. This very systematic grooming that has me concerned. I suggest to white people who aren’t concerned because it is not them who is being dehumanized, they should take note of the Republican record of lack of respect for women, their push to overturn Roe V Wade, Trump’s parroting of lies about abortion, and Pence’s general lack of regard or care for women. They are taking it more slowly and carefully, but I see similar grooming happening about women.

It is all too terrifying to allow the conversation to get muddied with talk of other times and other atrocities. Yes, those are important, but right now, calling out the language and policies for what they are - grooming - the same way a child molester grooms his victims, is the most important task at hand.

ETA: I have just been listening to the CNN 360 town hall with James Comey. The link is below. Sometime after the 40minute mark he talk about show Trump corrupts the people around him and gives examples from his own meetings with Trump. It is interesting to hear. I like that he does not give Republicans a pass. He believes people need to stand up and in his words have “strong character.” Earlier on in the town hall he also answers a question about balancing economics with moral leadership.

https://youtu.be/mRm0VEjSseg
 
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Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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22,133
I agree there have been terrible things going on for years, but what the Republicans are doing is something quite specific and intentional. They are systematically grooming the American public to believe that some people are not only not as valuable, but are actually not even human. This very systematic grooming that has me concerned. I suggest to white people who aren’t concerned because it is not them who is being dehumanized, they should take note of the Republican record of lack of respect for women, their push to overturn Roe V Wade, Trump’s parroting of lies about abortion, and Pence’s general lack of regard or care for women. They are taking it more slowly and carefully, but I see similar grooming happening about women.

It is all too terrifying to allow the conversation to get muddied with talk of other times and other atrocities. Yes, those are important, but right now, calling out the language and policies for what they are - grooming - the same way a child molester grooms his victims, is the most important task at hand.

ETA: I have just been listening to the CNN 360 town hall with James Comey. The link is below. Sometime after the 40minute mark he talk about show Trump corrupts the people around him and gives examples from his own meetings with Trump. It is interesting to hear. I like that he does not give Republicans a pass. He believes people need to stand up and in his words have “strong character.” Earlier on in the town hall he also answers a question about balancing economics with moral leadership.

https://youtu.be/mRm0VEjSseg
I understand what you are saying. It has been going on in Australia for years now and Trump has expressed support and praised how Australia has treated refugees. And there are politicians (eg Fraser Anning and Pauline Hanson immediately come to mind) who pander to those of a similar view. In fact with the current election campaign this is her slogan

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/the-feed/briggs-bought-a-billboard-just-to-let-pauline-hanson-know-what-he-s-thinking

But the article focuses on an aboriginal rapper in Australia names Briggs who also brought a billboard to counter Pauline.

Pauline Hanson was also the one who brought a motion to Parliament saying "It is okay to be white" and wore a burka to prove a point. She is an appalling individual.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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53,014
Meanwhile, Rudi Giuliani in his capacity as personal lawyer to the president of the United States is traveling to Ukraine for the purpose of, in his own words, "meddling in an investigation," in order to try to help the president's reelection prospects.

“This is the first instance of which I am aware in which a private lawyer for the president of the United States has, in his own words, ‘meddled’ in a foreign criminal investigation of a third party in order to politically benefit the president,” said Tim Meyer, an international law expert at Vanderbilt University. “Mr. Giuliani’s actions undermine the long-standing U.S. foreign policy of promoting the rule of law in Ukraine generally and in the Ukrainian general prosecutor’s office specifically.”
Anyone expecting there to be an election without inteference and subterfuge in 2020?

Giuliani’s remarkable admission about seeking Ukraine’s assistance for Trump (Washington Post)
 

caseyedwards

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12,534
You think there's no other choice than just shoot them? You don't think the shoot them hahaha rhetoric isn't problematic? You don't think it brings up imagery of just rounding them up and killing them? You don't think talking about migrants as objects that are ok to shoot like soda cans on a fence isn't similar to what happened in many places when people started being ok with talking about certain populations in a certain way that lead to their slaughter? You're being more obtuse than usual.

Also the 200,000 number is a figure of those that were apprehended or turned away, so they are already doing something. Not to mention what this government has already done in separating families, caging children, and doing who knows what else to those children (some deaths have occurred, reuniting them has been very difficult or impossible for many, etc. and it looks like NOBODY in this freakin country effing cares as it seems we've accepted that it happened). What do you want them to do after they apprehend them or turn them away? Shoot them? You think that kind of talk and Trump normalizing it is ok? That's all we're talking about right now. The imagery of just shooting them like they're not people whose lives are worth anything is the point being made to it being similar to Nazi Germany. It's not that hard.
US has borders. US has laws about entering America legally. You can get a visa and enter legally or you can go to a port of entry like a border crossing and demand asylum there. What is illegal is getting A raft and crossing the Rio grande! Or going to some barrier and climbing over it. Or seeing a Broken barrier and walking right through! US law doesn’t allow for any activity to repel! Nothing. They all must be arrested and now they are all demanding asylum so unless part of the very few that are sent back to wait in Mexico they start their lives in America as basically legal residents.

There is no dehumanization. Red state trump supporting people hire these illegals in huge numbers! They work on their farms and other businesses and there almost no hostility to them personally. They just think at the border illegal immigrants should be able to be repelled in some way. Because US law has rules for immigration.

And now the whole world is getting the knowledge! Why Africans and Chinese and others are now flying to Central America and then crossing the border and demanding asylum. This is the immigration system of America now. Why not make it official and legal?
 

LilJen

Reaching out with my hand sensitively
Messages
12,860
Nothing in the Mueller report, as promised for 2 years, so Dems are grasping at anything.
Again: If there is "nothing" in the Mueller report and "nothing" in Trump's tax returns, why is he going to such lengths to avoid having anyone see either one?
Clearly people are up in arms about the shooting rhetoric basically dehumanzing people and making them objects that are ok to just gun down. That's the basic human rights/decency thing. Nobody is talking about actual policies or visas right now.
"Trump" and "basic human decency" are diametrically opposed concepts.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
29,754
US has borders. US has laws about entering America legally. You can get a visa and enter legally or you can go to a port of entry like a border crossing and demand asylum there. What is illegal is getting A raft and crossing the Rio grande! Or going to some barrier and climbing over it. Or seeing a Broken barrier and walking right through! US law doesn’t allow for any activity to repel! Nothing. They all must be arrested and now they are all demanding asylum so unless part of the very few that are sent back to wait in Mexico they start their lives in America as basically legal residents.

There is no dehumanization. Red state trump supporting people hire these illegals in huge numbers! They work on their farms and other businesses and there almost no hostility to them personally. They just think at the border illegal immigrants should be able to be repelled in some way. Because US law has rules for immigration.

And now the whole world is getting the knowledge! Why Africans and Chinese and others are now flying to Central America and then crossing the border and demanding asylum. This is the immigration system of America now. Why not make it official and legal?
One last time...nobody is arguing against that because none of that was being discussed. What they were reacting to was Trump's reaction to some supporter in a rally saying "shoot them" and him making a joke out of it like it was nothing. They said it was very Nazi-like, and you then you responded all bent out of shape about it arguing it wasn't Nazi-like and that it was ok. So stop deflecting and answer the damn question. You don't think his supporters at the rallies thinking it's ok to dehumanize migrants and just shoot them with Trump laughing about (meaning he's ok with it and probably encouraging that line of thought) isn't similar to the way other people were dehumanized in history before they started getting rounded up and killed?

If you go off-tangent and answer about immigration policy (which is an important topic but not one anyone is discussing since we're still in shock that you seem ok with what happened at the rally and how someone cried "shoot them" and think it's all excusable with some logical gymnastics about visas), then I know you aren't serious about addressing this pretty BASIC topic about basic human decency because you want to avoid answering it. Every time you deflect and try to make it about a policy argument, it makes it look like some game you're playing because you actually do support or understand people wanting to shoot and kill migrants (men, women, children).
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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11,542
So do I feel ill about it.

I can put up with him wanting to be the bride at every wedding and the corpse at every funeral, but I can't put up with him trying to be the flag at every fourth of July.
 

ballettmaus

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Messages
11,974
I think this is bad in a different way. The military parade would have been unnecessarily expensive. Now, he's turning a day that's not supposed to be partisan or political into his day.
 

Susan1

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Messages
5,110
Is nobody watching MSNBC today?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/us/politics/giuliani-ukraine-trump.html

“We’re not meddling in an election, we’re meddling in an investigation, which we have a right to do,” Mr. Giuliani said in an interview on Thursday when asked about the parallel to the special counsel’s inquiry.

“There’s nothing illegal about it,” he said. “Somebody could say it’s improper. And this isn’t foreign policy — I’m asking them to do an investigation that they’re doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. And I’m going to give them reasons why they shouldn’t stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client, and may turn out to be helpful to my government.”

Watching Nicolle Wallace this afternoon, she said they denied getting help from Russia and now they are bragging about getting help from Ukraine. I mean, really!!!!! Somebody else said what Rudy was doing was illegal. I want to know who is going to stop these people. They just do whatever they want, wherever they want and they don't care who knows. If they are going to do this stuff in plain sight, what are they doing behind closed doors. And why do they persist in lying about everything anyway. I really need to hit something!
:EVILLE: :revenge: :lynch:
 

Susan1

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Messages
5,110
Sorry - I missed this one -
Meanwhile, Rudi Giuliani in his capacity as personal lawyer to the president of the United States is traveling to Ukraine for the purpose of, in his own words, "meddling in an investigation," in order to try to help the president's reelection prospects.



Anyone expecting there to be an election without inteference and subterfuge in 2020?

Giuliani’s remarkable admission about seeking Ukraine’s assistance for Trump (Washington Post)
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,534
One last time...nobody is arguing against that because none of that was being discussed. What they were reacting to was Trump's reaction to some supporter in a rally saying "shoot them" and him making a joke out of it like it was nothing. They said it was very Nazi-like, and you then you responded all bent out of shape about it arguing it wasn't Nazi-like and that it was ok. So stop deflecting and answer the damn question. You don't think his supporters at the rallies thinking it's ok to dehumanize migrants and just shoot them with Trump laughing about (meaning he's ok with it and probably encouraging that line of thought) isn't similar to the way other people were dehumanized in history before they started getting rounded up and killed?

If you go off-tangent and answer about immigration policy (which is an important topic but not one anyone is discussing since we're still in shock that you seem ok with what happened at the rally and how someone cried "shoot them" and think it's all excusable with some logical gymnastics about visas), then I know you aren't serious about addressing this pretty BASIC topic about basic human decency because you want to avoid answering it. Every time you deflect and try to make it about a policy argument, it makes it look like some game you're playing because you actually do support or understand people wanting to shoot and kill migrants (men, women, children).
I definitely disagree it’s dehumanizing. It’s very complicated! If you have been totally indoctrinated that US borders are real and must be enforced and you see video of people climbing the walls and sometimes tearing down fences to get in you are all about how “criminals” are “invading.” There is no dehumanization involved. It’s totally extreme and a radical position in most cases!! I just read today about how border control watched a man push a woman with a baby into the Rio grande to get them to America against their will! Very strange story but it would have been nice if border control should have shot that man!

The woman, holding an inner tube and the small child, appeared reluctant to get into the water when an unidentified adult male pushed her and the child into river. The two were quickly swept downstream as the woman desperately tried to keep the child’s head above water.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/del-rio-sector-border-patrol-agents-rescue-two-rio-grande
 

VGThuy

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29,754
I definitely disagree it’s dehumanizing. It’s very complicated! If you have been totally indoctrinated that US borders are real and must be enforced and you see video of people climbing the walls and sometimes tearing down fences to get in you are all about how “criminals” are “invading.” There is no dehumanization involved. It’s totally extreme and a radical position in most cases!! I just read today about how border control watched a man push a woman with a baby into the Rio grande to get them to America against their will! Very strange story but it would have been nice if border control should have shot that man!

The woman, holding an inner tube and the small child, appeared reluctant to get into the water when an unidentified adult male pushed her and the child into river. The two were quickly swept downstream as the woman desperately tried to keep the child’s head above water.

https://www.cbp.gov/newsroom/local-media-release/del-rio-sector-border-patrol-agents-rescue-two-rio-grande
You know full well that situation isn't all people are talking about when they say "shoot them". They want border patrol to have carte blanche to shoot whomever without recourse and think it's a good thing. There is a very violent rhetoric out there painting all migrants as an "other" and dangerous criminals who are not deserving of due process because they are not citizens and thus are less than human...even worse than lack of due process but lack of basic decent human response. Just shoot them, with people cheering and celebrating. Also, you take one example and you think that applies to all of the migrants that are being painted as animals who need to be shot down when there are thousands more that are not close to being like that and people want them shot anyway. And you know there are many different ways to handle a situation than to just blindly shoot.

I'm glad to hear that you finally admit you're ok with the rhetoric though. It was an honest response even if I find it horrific on a multitude of levels. That honesty is what we wanted to hear from you without trying to hide behind some deflection regarding this whole thing from that rally and from Trump's response being about "demanding visas" which again takes some mental gymnastics working overtime in a desperate attempt to defend Trump's and his supporter's violent dehumanizing rhetoric and giving them more admirable motives than the plain meaning of their words and actions actually say to an audience. There are so many options between letting them all in visas-or-no and just blindly shooting people who don't have visas to enter no matter who they are because they are less-than-human who deserve to just be shot and killed.
 
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Susan1

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Messages
5,110
Is nobody watching MSNBC today?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/us/politics/giuliani-ukraine-trump.html

“We’re not meddling in an election, we’re meddling in an investigation, which we have a right to do,” Mr. Giuliani said in an interview on Thursday when asked about the parallel to the special counsel’s inquiry.

“There’s nothing illegal about it,” he said. “Somebody could say it’s improper. And this isn’t foreign policy — I’m asking them to do an investigation that they’re doing already and that other people are telling them to stop. And I’m going to give them reasons why they shouldn’t stop it because that information will be very, very helpful to my client, and may turn out to be helpful to my government.”

Watching Nicolle Wallace this afternoon, she said they denied getting help from Russia and now they are bragging about getting help from Ukraine. I mean, really!!!!! Somebody else said what Rudy was doing was illegal. I want to know who is going to stop these people. They just do whatever they want, wherever they want and they don't care who knows. If they are going to do this stuff in plain sight, what are they doing behind closed doors. And why do they persist in lying about everything anyway. I really need to hit something!
:EVILLE: :revenge: :lynch:
Couldn't sleep - 5:30 this morning - Rudy has decided not to go to Ukraine! Maybe they realized that knowing he couldn't have won in 2016 without Russia, it might look a tiny bit bad that they knew they couldn't win in 2020 without Ukraine?
 

topaz

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14,341
Trump has already “flipped” one circuit, the third, from a majority appointed by Democratic presidents to a majority appointed by Republicans. He is nearing potential flips in the second, fourth and 11th – which is the court that would hear appeals, for example, in any legal challenge to a bill Alabama legislators could pass next week making performing an abortion a felony punishable with up to 99 years in prison.
And recently Trump accelerated further, following a Senate rules change McConnell put into effect last month that lowered mandatory debate time on any one district court nominee from 30 hours to two hours.

“Last week was a great example,” said Tobias. “They were able to push through five district nominees last week and I expect that pace will continue.”

Goldberg, whose group recently published a report titled Trump’s Attacks on Our Justice System, said Republicans were trying to use the courts “to accomplish what they can’t accomplish through the legislative process”.

“They could not repeal the Affordable Care Act (ACA),” Goldberg said. “So what are they trying to do now? Put on judges who have made clear that if confirmed, they will use the courts to take away critical access to healthcare for millions. We’ve already seen a judge in Texas declare the ACA unconstitutional.
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2019/may/11/trump-judge-nominees-appointments-circut-court-flip


All the president’s judges: how Trump can flip courts at a record-setting pace.

The damage of a republican presidency has already been done. I do not believe very many republicans are outraged by Trump as folks believe. His admin. are fulfilling the dreams of the republican party.
 
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BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
53,014
Couldn't sleep - 5:30 this morning - Rudy has decided not to go to Ukraine! Maybe they realized that knowing he couldn't have won in 2016 without Russia, it might look a tiny bit bad that they knew they couldn't win in 2020 without Ukraine?
Rudy is such a bumbling idiot--thank goodness! I think they totally blew this attempt to smear Biden, thankfully.

We've talked about this before, but Rudy just doesn't seem to have all his marbles these days.
 

LilJen

Reaching out with my hand sensitively
Messages
12,860
Even I feel like he's sort of desecrating the day and I'm certain it doesn't mean nearly as much to me as it probably it means to (most) US citizens.
I'm not super patriotic either but GADS, the man has not a shred of decency. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME as the Baby Prez whines on about how he's our "favorite" president. Revolting.
 

skatesindreams

Well-Known Member
Messages
29,091
Such a display by this disgusting President, would be likely to make me feel less patriotic.
I'm sure that Jefferson, who suggested "celebrations and fireworks", would be appalled!
 

mag

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,790
Rudy is such a bumbling idiot--thank goodness! I think they totally blew this attempt to smear Biden, thankfully.

We've talked about this before, but Rudy just doesn't seem to have all his marbles these days.
I disagree. Rudy is crazy like a fox. It is a very effective act he uses and he gets results. He doesn’t have to go the the Ukraine anymore. The damage has been done and the Ukrainians, who rely on the US for weapons to defend themselves, know exactly what they need to do to stay in Trump’s good graces.

Look back at all the crazy stuff he said about Russia investigation. He gets Trump’s side out in front of the story. He makes it look like he has slipped up, but he is just doing another form of grooming. Grooming the public, or at least Trump’s base, to believe what Trump says. Remember, he was the originator of the idea that the Trump campaign wasn’t organized enough to conspire with the Russians. Yep, that actually worked. IMHO, it is total bullshit that Don Jr. didn’t know what he was doing. He absolutely knew.
 

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