Dangers of a Trump Presidency--Part 7

Prancer

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Can the emergency declaration be challenged and by who?
That's one of the questions that is up in the air, but I have read that the Democrats believe that they cannot do it and that the suits would have to be filed by either the states or the agencies that are affected.

The ACLU supposedly has paperwork for an injunction ready to go.
 

BlueRidge

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The article I read said it can be challenged in court. Wall building itself is going to be subject to court challenges also.

I wonder if people who are eager to say Trump is a dictator, and eager to dismiss the fact that the national emergency declaration is something set out in legislation and subject to limitations have thought about how dictators grow into power. They do it by convincing people they have power, by people fearing that they have power and people fearing to resist. If you want to help Trump, keep calling him a dicatator and keep talking about the national emergency declaration as an unprecedented power grab. He will thank you.

Its a bad precedent if he does it, but he will be challenged. And really perception will be a big part of how far it takes us outside of our democratic processes.

Trump is a weak buffoon, don't hand him power he can't manage on his own.
 

Vash01

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Prancer

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The article I read said it can be challenged in court.
It definitely can; the question is, who has the standing to do it?

Wall building itself is going to be subject to court challenges also.
Eminent domain cases will drag on for years. Environmental cases will drag on for years.

The wall is not going to go up any time soon, no matter when Trump gets his money. Everyone but Trump knows this.
 

ballettmaus

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I wonder if people who are eager to say Trump is a dictator, and eager to dismiss the fact that the national emergency declaration is something set out in legislation and subject to limitations have thought about how dictators grow into power. They do it by convincing people they have power, by people fearing that they have power and people fearing to resist. If you want to help Trump, keep calling him a dicatator and keep talking about the national emergency declaration as an unprecedented power grab. He will thank you.

We need to stop comparing this situation to previous Presidents. Previous Presidents were not the same kind of people. We didn't have to fear that they would abuse their power. They might have to an extend but never so much so that we had to fear for Democracy. Trump has already abused so much of his power and no one stopped him. Once he declares a national emergency he has access to laws that are an aspiring autocrat's dream. And if we ignore his auhoritarian streak we ignore how dangerous it could be if he declared a national emergency.

Dictators don't become dictators because everyone calls them that. It's the opposite, actually. Both Hitler and Erdogan became dictators/autocrats by manipulating the system and existing laws and because people were oblivious to or ignorant of the danger they were posing to democracy.
 

BlueRidge

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I see nothing to compare Trump to Hitler or other dictators. He's a buffoon who doesn't have a clue what he's doing. He could have declared an emergency on TV and already be in the process of moving on his wall. He's really incredibly weak. The guy can't think his way out of a paper bag. The only dangerous thing about his calling the emergency is the precedent it sets for a future president who may try to misuse the laws.

If Trump calls an emergency, for the most part nothing will happen but court challenges.

Its fear that gives an autocrat power. Laugh at this jerk and you'll do more to disempower him than if you suggest we have so much to fear. (Insert quote about fear itself...)

Just to give two examples: Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi. McConnell fears Trump and he has made himself powerless to do anything. Pelosi doesn't fear Trump and she's beating him.
 

Sparks

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He's dangerous because he does Putin's bidding. He's a Russian asset.
Fascism/Alt-Right, whatever you want to call it is spreading all over the world, much to Putin's delight.
 

ballettmaus

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Its fear that gives an autocrat power. Laugh at this jerk and you'll do more to disempower him than if you suggest we have so much to fear. (Insert quote about fear itself...)
Germans weren't afraid of Hitler's power (there is a huge similarity between Trump and Hitler, basically, the entire language and how his followers react) and as far as I know, people from Turkey, Poland and Hungary weren't/aren't afraid of their leader's powers either. History says that the biggest favor you can do an autocrat/dictator is to be uninformed, normalize them and not take them seriously. That is why dictators and autocrats fear the media. The media exposes them for what they are and autocrats fear being exposed as such. They don't like it because then people are aware, alert and alarmed and that is the opposite of what they want them to be.

Without strong opposition we probably would already have a national emergency. (15 out of 17 members of Congress who represent border states/districts along the border oppose the wall, for example). And without court challenges, we'd probably have all of the other laws that restrict democracy in place within a couple of weeks, too.

I agree, that the people should not fear Trump. But you can be afraid of something someone wants to do because of the consequences that action would have without being afraid of the person themselves. I think that is precisely how it should be with Trump. Don't be afraid of him, be afraid of the consequences of what he would do if he could, don't normalize him and take him and the threat he poses seriously. I think that is what Pelosi and everyone who is fighting Trump is doing. They're not afraid of him but they recognize the threat his desires pose and what he would do if he were left to his own devices. If they didn't, they wouldn't fight him.
 
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WildRose

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He's dangerous because he does Putin's bidding. He's a Russian asset.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.11619baf3a23

"President Trump has gone to extraordinary lengths to conceal details of his conversations with Russian President Vladimir Putin, including on at least one occasion taking possession of the notes of his own interpreter and instructing the linguist not to discuss what had transpired with other administration officials, current and former U.S. officials said."
 

Peaches LaTour

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Can the emergency declaration be challenged and by who? It does not make sense to give a president absolute power like this, in a system that operates on checks and balances.

If Trump is able to get his wall by declaring national emergency, it will set a very dangerous precedent.
Yes, the Dems have vowed to challenge it if it happens.
 

BlueRidge

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He's dangerous because he does Putin's bidding. He's a Russian asset.
Fascism/Alt-Right, whatever you want to call it is spreading all over the world, much to Putin's delight.
Its early Sunday morning so I'm going to ignore the skeptical voice in my head and ask whether it is time to start considering whether Mitch McConnell is a Russian agent?

I suppose that the obvious political pressures answer the question why the Republican Party hasn't broken with Trump but I don't think that's definitive.

Trump should have been forced out of the presidency by now if the Republicans in the Senate hadn't lost their ability to think critically about him.

It doesn't matter whether he is an actual Russian agent or a crazed and demented Putin fanboy, Trump has done way too many things that are against the interests of the US and in the interests of Putin.

I cannot get over Trump saying that the Soviet Union was right to be in Afghanistan. And I cannot get over Republicans simply pretending they didn't hear him say it.

Are they really just so afraid of Trump's voters that they will ignore just about anything? Or is there more going on?
 

skatesindreams

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https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/trump-has-concealed-details-of-his-face-to-face-encounters-with-putin-from-senior-officials-in-administration/2019/01/12/65f6686c-1434-11e9-b6ad-9cfd62dbb0a8_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.11619baf3a23

"President Trump has gone to extraordinary lengths to conceal details of his conversations with Russian President Vladimir Putin, including on at least one occasion taking possession of the notes of his own interpreter and instructing the linguist not to discuss what had transpired with other administration officials, current and former U.S. officials said."
I wonder what more happened in those meetings.
 

Reuven

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This last quote makes me wonder - even if the FBI finds out that Trump had indeed collaborated with the Russians, and is still doing it, the FBI won't be able to do anything about it- is this correct? May be the next step would be to send this information to Mueller or Congress, or.....? Some are saying Mueller knows a lot more.
Mueller took over the investigation.
The bureau then quickly approved an investigation into not only whether Trump had criminally obstructed justice (which we learned of long ago), but also into whether Trump had been acting on Russia’s behalf. Shortly afterward, Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein appointed Mueller as special counsel to take charge of the probe.
 

BittyBug

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Its early Sunday morning so I'm going to ignore the skeptical voice in my head and ask whether it is time to start considering whether Mitch McConnell is a Russian agent?
At a minimum, he does not seem to be placing the welfare of the country ahead of his own political interests.
 

BlueRidge

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At a minimum, he does not seem to be placing the welfare of the country ahead of his own political interests.
I find his near silence during the shutdown very strange. Granted it wasn't likely he would directly challenge Trump but that he's not asserting himself seemingly in anyway is strange. Usually he's a snake, is he plotting something behind the scenes? It doesn't seem like it. Its as if he's abdicated all his power to Trump.
 

BittyBug

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I find his near silence during the shutdown very strange. Granted it wasn't likely he would directly challenge Trump but that he's not asserting himself seemingly in anyway is strange. Usually he's a snake, is he plotting something behind the scenes? It doesn't seem like it. Its as if he's abdicated all his power to Trump.
I think the issue is that Trump has backed himself into a corner. The wall, mirage though it may be, is everything to Trump's base. And as soon as Ann Coulter and others at Fox basically called Trump impotent for agreeing to sign off on a funding bill that did not include anything for the wall, Trump reversed course and dug in with no wall, no deal.

Meanwhile, McConnell knows that there will be no deal with a wall, so what are his options? He must be assuming that overriding a presidential veto would be political suicide because the votes are almost certainly there to do so, if only he would allow a vote. But the party is now beholden to a cult of personality and "the base." And now that McConnell has been on the receiving end of Trump's fickleness, I don't think that McYurtle is willing to stick his neck out again and therefore seems to be waiting for Trump to make a move.

All of McConnell's strategy is for naught when its implementation depends on an erratic, possibly senile, impetuous lunatic who will change his mind in a nano second based on a comment from someone on a couch at Fox & Friends.
 

BlueRidge

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All of McConnell's strategy is for naught
etc
Well yes it is now, since the brilliant Majority Leader wasn't able to prevent them all from getting wedged into this predicament in the first place. He was so haughty about his superiority to someone like John Boehner who had to throw in the towel because he couldn't make things work in the House.

Since McConnell's political future is fcked either way, he could decide to stand up to Trump. But yeah, well anyway.

ETA: Just putting this here, because I have too many posts...

The Guardian:

On Saturday night, Trump was asked by a Fox News host whether he had ever worked for Russia.


“I think it’s the most insulting thing I’ve ever been asked,” he said.


He did not give a yes or no answer.
Trump cannot be removed by the Democrats. It is time for the Republicans to get their patriotism on and remove him.
 
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BittyBug

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Well yes it is now, since the brilliant Majority Leader wasn't able to prevent them all from getting wedged into this predicament in the first place.
He was foolish enough to rely on the President's word with the bill they passed right before the holidays.

He was so haughty about his superiority to someone like John Boehner who had to throw in the towel because he couldn't make things work in the House.
Everyone always thinks they can lead when they dance with the devil, without realizing that the devil always writes the dance card.

Since McConnell's political future is fcked either way, he could decide to stand up to Trump. But yeah, well anyway.
Is it though? The people of KY keep on re-electing him.
 

BlueRidge

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Is it though? The people of KY keep on re-electing him.
Oh I think he can count on be re-elected in perpetuity unless he breaks with Trump and uh, puts America first, so to speak. But the future for Republicans with Trump as president, the Senate held hostage to his illogical and unpredictable whims, what good does that do McConnell? He becomes just Trump's water boy. That's pretty fcked.
 

BittyBug

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....what good does that do McConnell?
He keeps getting his judges, which seems to be of paramount importance to him.

I think one of the issues we're facing is that most of us are trying to rationally analyze our current state. The presumption is that it should all make sense in some way, shape or form, when it may just be that we have a deranged lunatic at the helm who defies any reason.
 

BlueRidge

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He keeps getting his judges, which seems to be of paramount importance to him.

I think one of the issues we're facing is that most of us are trying to rationally analyze our current state. The presumption is that it should all make sense in some way, shape or form, when it may just be that we have a deranged lunatic at the helm who defies any reason.
He keeps getting his judges until the Democrats win the presidency and probably the senate too and as long as he lets a deranged lunatic run wild that becomes more and more likely. McConnell can win his own seat but his sitting quietly letting things go crazy around him is not making it likely the Republicans will win coming elections.

He's go to know that. Its not as if McConnell is standing next to Trump exhorting everyone to support him. He's largely though not entirely removed himself from the whole thing publicly. I find that curious.
 

caseyedwards

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He keeps getting his judges, which seems to be of paramount importance to him.

I think one of the issues we're facing is that most of us are trying to rationally analyze our current state. The presumption is that it should all make sense in some way, shape or form, when it may just be that we have a deranged lunatic at the helm who defies any reason.
he is a deranged lunatic and there’s no excuse not to be impeaching trump.
 

Vash01

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Its early Sunday morning so I'm going to ignore the skeptical voice in my head and ask whether it is time to start considering whether Mitch McConnell is a Russian agent?

I suppose that the obvious political pressures answer the question why the Republican Party hasn't broken with Trump but I don't think that's definitive.

Trump should have been forced out of the presidency by now if the Republicans in the Senate hadn't lost their ability to think critically about him.

It doesn't matter whether he is an actual Russian agent or a crazed and demented Putin fanboy, Trump has done way too many things that are against the interests of the US and in the interests of Putin.

I cannot get over Trump saying that the Soviet Union was right to be in Afghanistan. And I cannot get over Republicans simply pretending they didn't hear him say it.

Are they really just so afraid of Trump's voters that they will ignore just about anything? Or is there more going on?
McConnell goes out of his way to protect Trump. He even violates the constitution, which requires Congress to pass a bill before sending it to the a President. McConnell wants to know what the president wants before he brings the bill to the Senate floor. If Trump does not approve, he does not bring the bill to the floor. This is totally against our system.

Either Trump has something on him or he may be involved with Russia in some capacity. His behavior is suspect. It cannot be explained based on his re-election in 2020. So I tend to agree with you.

Sadly there is no way to remove a senate leader during his term.we may have to wait till 2020. Either he loses the primary or the republicans lose majority in the senate. Right now nothing can be done to contain McConnell.
 

WildRose

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I think Putin totally owns Trump and possibly a few key Republicans. I think Trump owes massive sums of money to the Russian mob, can’t pay it back, and is absolutely terrified Putin will have him killed if he doesn’t cooperate. I also think that some key members of the Republican leadership accepted Russian campaign money (maybe even unknowingly), and are terrified they are going to be found out and prosecuted if Trump goes down, so they continue to protect him.
 

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