Congratulations President-Elect Biden & Vice-President Elect Harris

jenny12

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Being nostalgic for John McCain shows the extent of how Republicans have fallen off the deep end. That dude sang songs about killing Iranians and voted against having Martin Luther King Day, not to mention openly using slurs against the Vietnamese up until the 2000s.
 
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VGThuy

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Being nostalgic for John McCain shows the extent of how Republicans have fallen off the deep end. That dude sang songs about killing Iranians and voted against having Martin Luther King Day, not to mention openly using slurs against the Vietnamese up until the 2000s.
THANK YOU!

And he wasn't ashamed of bringing Sarah Palin into our national consciousness. He did skits with her towards the end.

Also, he and Cindy gave us one obnoxious, bitter, fame-hungry daughter.
 

PRlady

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John McCain saved the affordable care act.

Good and bad come wrapped together often in this world.
McCain was one brave guy as a POW and he had an old-fashioned sense of honor. However, his military allegiance also made him a war-monger with more than his share of macho crap. However, as I posted before, he was as good on gun control as a Republican can be, saved the ACA and was never too old to learn something he once had contempt for -- a former homophobe who came around, somewhat. So relative to what the GOP is NOW he looks like a hero.
 

BlueRidge

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McCain was one brave guy as a POW and he had an old-fashioned sense of honor. However, his military allegiance also made him a war-monger with more than his share of macho crap. However, as I posted before, he was as good on gun control as a Republican can be, saved the ACA and was never too old to learn something he once had contempt for -- a former homophobe who came around, somewhat. So relative to what the GOP is NOW he looks like a hero.

IIRC he was already out of step in 2008. I remember watching a Republican presidential candidate debate and he stood out as the only one who wasn't completely outside the former mainstream.
 

DFJ

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Any of our lawyers listening to the SCOTUS hearing on the ACA? I did for a bit. Roberts and Kavanaugh seemed sceptical on the severability issue but I might have mis-heard.
 

BlueRidge

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Any of our lawyers listening to the SCOTUS hearing on the ACA? I did for a bit. Roberts and Kavanaugh seemed sceptical on the severability issue but I might have mis-heard.

I saw this reported just now at the Guardian, Roberts and Kavanaugh showing skepticism. If Roberts can bring Kavanaugh along, we're saved.
 

MsZem

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John McCain saved the affordable care act.

Good and bad come wrapped together often in this world.
There's a line in Daniel Kahneman's Nobel Prize biography that's always stuck with me. He talks about a childhood experience after which he concluded that his mother was right; "people were endlessly complicated and interesting."

John McCain made his share of mistakes, but he also did decent and honorable things. FWIW, I don't think Meghan McCain is bitter, but like her father she's imperfect.

Anyway, I suspect that most of the McCains, including Meghan, voted Biden/Harris.
 
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VGThuy

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She's one of the worst, which is funny because McCain himself made such disparaging remarks about 13-year-old Chelsea Clinton because of her looks. I know which daughter carries herself better, not that it's a contest or anything, but he should have looking at his own home and think about what true beauty is.
 

DORISPULASKI

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Roberts said that is hard to argue that the same Congress that reduced the mandate to $0, really intended to repeal the law and then just didn't. He said he suspected the Congress wanted SCOTUS to strike it down for them, but that is not the court's job.

Kavanaugh made the same argument.

So I have hope.
 

Polaris

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Roberts has definitely made his feelings on SCOTUS independence known. I just don't know where the 3 Trump appointees sit.
 

jenny12

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McCain saving the Affordable Care Act was the bare minimum and does not outweigh the fact that he outwardly rejoiced in killing Iraqis and Vietnamese. Cool that he voted to save the ACA which essentially was a conservative plan at its core anyway. Romney voted to impeach Trump and I’m not about to lionize him. Racists can make good decisions but it doesn’t mean I’m going to pine for a time that they were still in the Senate. Normalizing McCain just created an environment for the Republican Party to get away with shit. McCain isn’t about equal parts good and bad. He’s about a few decent decisions that the media used as a cover for his racism and war mongering.

So yes, he’s “better” than what we have now but I don’t know, this pining for the past just moves the goal post for the future. Who are we going to pine for next? Nixon? We already seem to being so with Bush. Trump is a horrific, deranged, megalomaniac but that shouldn’t be used to sanitize the other politicians who unfortunately in their own ways had many of the same characteristics. They were just smarter about the way they revealed them.

Also as @VGThuy mentioned, McCain flat out called Chelsea Clinton ugly. I really wish could stop pretending he was a good person.
 
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jenny12

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He's dead. What do we get from flogging him?

We get a lot more from flogging him than pining for him in my opinion. By being honest about who he was, it helps to call out future politicians who follow in his unfortunate footsteps.

Nixon’s dead too. Doesn’t mean we stop being honest about who he was. We need to have a higher standard for Republicans than “at least he’s not Trump.”
 

BlueRidge

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We get a lot more from flogging him than pining for him in my opinion. By being honest about who he was, it helps to call out future politicians who follow in his unfortunate footsteps.

Nixon’s dead too. Doesn’t mean we stop being honest about who he was.

Its the overkill here I find disturbing.

Plus John McCain did vote to save the affordable care act. It seems like people want to erase that because they think he was so horrible a person.

He did something incredibly important. Nothing will change that.
 

Susan1

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We get a lot more from flogging him than pining for him in my opinion. By being honest about who he was, it helps to call out future politicians who follow in his unfortunate footsteps.

Nixon’s dead too. Doesn’t mean we stop being honest about who he was. We need to have a higher standard for Republicans than “at least he’s not Trump.”
I thought it was "at least trump's not as bad as Hitler"? Nixon did not do something bad every day of his presidency. And he resigned. He didn't hang around and make everybody miserable. trump's already been impeached. No president is as bad as trump. His enablers are though.
 

jenny12

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I thought it was "at least trump's not as bad as Hitler"? Nixon did not do something bad every day of his presidency. And he resigned. He didn't hang around and make everybody miserable. trump's already been impeached. No president is as bad as trump. His enablers are though.

The point of my post wasn’t to compare Nixon and Trump. It was to say that just because someone’s dead like Nixon, doesn’t mean we stop criticizing him.

No President being as bad as Trump? Well, I don’t know. We’ve had Presidents who lied to get us into war, we’ve had Presidents who’ve caused mass poverty, we’ve had Presidents who owned slaves, we’ve had other presidents who’ve likewise ignored health crises just because of who these crises impacted. Trump was the most outwardly demonic perhaps but let’s be honest about who has occupied that office in the past. Doing so does not make Trump any less horrific.
 
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BlueRidge

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Some of us. But some of us have LONG memories.

Honestly, I don't get the "Bush doesn't look so bad now, does he?" way of looking at things. Yes, yes he still does look as bad. 🤷‍♀️

I don't think that people are thinking about Bush's policies when they say Bush doesn't look so bad. They are talking about him as an individual and he doesn't make up everything and name call and insult and bully as an individual so he's kind of pleasant by comparison with Trump.

That doesn't change the fact that he undertook a war of aggression against a country which had not attacked the US and bungled the aftermath leading to many hundreds of thousands of lives lost.

Can someone who did that be a nice guy?

I don't know. I kind of like him personally. I do remember him being a total snot at times though.
 

Susan1

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The point of my post wasn’t to compare Nixon and Trump. It was to say that just because someone’s dead like Nixon, doesn’t mean we stop criticizing him.

No President being as bad as Trump? Well, I don’t know. We’ve had Presidents who lied to get us into war, we’ve had Presidents who’ve caused mass poverty, we’ve had Presidents who owned slaves, we’ve had other presidents who’ve likewise ignored health crises just because of who these crises impacted. Trump was the most outwardly demonic perhaps but let’s be honest about who has occupied that office in the past. Doing so does not make Trump any less horrific.
o.k. - it depends on the degree of what is being criticized. Or maybe how many people got hurt. People aren't "criticizing" Nixon. We talk about his crimes. McCain did more good than bad, nothing criminal or to hurt the country. Did he? I don't even follow politics. People still criticize the alive Bill Clinton, but he didn't commit a crime against the country either. Presidents aren't perfect. Somebody is always going to be against something they do. McCain was not a president. Why do you hate him so much? I will say again, I have always voted Democrat. I love(d) President Obama, but in my worst nightmares, it never would have crossed my mind that McCain would completely ruin the country if he got elected, like trump has since damn day one.
 

Meoima

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Some of us. But some of us have LONG memories.

Honestly, I don't get the "Bush doesn't look so bad now, does he?" way of looking at things. Yes, yes he still does look as bad. 🤷‍♀️
I am not American but I still remember my people including me hating Bush so much.
And now I am just baffled to find so many of my people love and idolize Trump.
At least no one from my family like Trump.
 

jenny12

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o.k. - it depends on the degree of what is being criticized. Or maybe how many people got hurt. People aren't "criticizing" Nixon. We talk about his crimes. McCain did more good than bad, nothing criminal or to hurt the country. Did he? I don't even follow politics. People still criticize the alive Bill Clinton, but he didn't commit a crime against the country either. Presidents aren't perfect. Somebody is always going to be against something they do. McCain was not a president. Why do you hate him so much? I will say again, I have always voted Democrat. I love(d) President Obama, but in my worst nightmares, it never would have crossed my mind that McCain would completely ruin the country if he got elected, like trump has since damn day one.


It's not about hating McCain. It is about being honest about who he was. Dismissing criticism as hatred does a disservice to those who was impacted by his words and actions. Sure, he wasn't President, but he is continually held up as an example of the ideal Republican or worse the ideal Bi-Partisan politician. I think doing so is dangerous because it normalizes misogyny, it normalizes being blood-thirsty toward other countries, it normalizes racism, and it normalizes selling yourself willingly to a wealthy conman (the Keating Five, anyone)?

If people want to lionize McCain, then obviously my opinions obviously won't change that. I just want to point out that not everyone sees him as the beacon of ideal bipartisanship and there are some who think doing so is dangerous.

I'm very relieved that Biden and Harris were elected and my biggest wish for their administration is to not return to DC business as usual because unfortunately, a lot of DC business as usual as involved normalizing the type of politics that McCain engaged in. I think they and we as a country can do far, far better than that and one thing that I hope the Biden administration does is not only refuse to pardon Trump but bring forth criminal charges against him (this might be pie-in-the-sky, but I can dream).
 
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