Concentration camps for gay men in Chechnya

attyfan

Well-Known Member
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8,598
Thank you to both text_skate and babayaga for the information. The treatment of gays in Chechnya is truly horrifying in any event, even if no camps are formally established.
 

BittyBug

The missing ingredient
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Back to topic: As disgusting as the camps sound, we have to think of the country/culture in which they happen. So is multi-culturalism ok only if other cultures prescribe to your own liberal agendas? Who is the most intolerant?
So you think human rights are culturally-dependent? Wow.
 

DFJ

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My friend had her throat slit in an honour killing because her parents didn't approve of her relationship with her husband. I didn't really give a damn what their culture was - it was horrifying - just as those disgusting camps.
 

BlueRidge

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There's a key difference in understanding and concern between liberals and conservatives here. I'm trying to remember exactly how it works, but it has to do with language and it was exemplified by the fact that when the Access Hollywood videos surfaced conservatives were upset about Trump's use of the word "pussy" whereas liberals were concerned about his suggesting that grabbing a woman's genitals was a casual thing.

The same thing is at work over the term "tolerance" but I can't quite parse it out right now. Just that conservatives and liberals butt heads on the understanding of "tolerance" all the time.
 

kittysk8ts

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"If there were such people in Chechnya, the law-enforcement organs wouldn’t need to have anything to do with them because their relatives would send them somewhere from which there is no returning."
......

"In our Chechen society, any person who respects our traditions and culture will hunt down this kind of person without any help from authorities, and do everything to make sure that this kind of person does not exist in our society."


Reading this article, in the particular the above excerpts, I feel so lucky to live in Canada where I may live as I wish, marry whom I like and be protected from those who would see me killed simply because of who I love. I do pray that someday, all citizens in all countries can have the basic rights and dignity afforded to those of us in Canada.
 

Asli

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"If there were such people in Chechnya, the law-enforcement organs wouldn’t need to have anything to do with them because their relatives would send them somewhere from which there is no returning."
"In our Chechen society, any person who respects our traditions and culture will hunt down this kind of person without any help from authorities, and do everything to make sure that this kind of person does not exist in our society."
Wow. Just wow. It sounds like the entire gay population of Chechnya should automatically be given asylum and airlifted to Europe.

As difficult as it is to find humour in such a situation, the way Chechen authorities are squirming, at the same time trying to deny the existence of gay Chechens and to punish them for being gay - well, it's pretty funny. :rofl:
 

Aerobicidal

Inspired by Selections
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I remember when I was surprised to see racist and homophobic posts on FSU, thinking it would be unusual for an international community of figure skating fans.

I realize now that that reaction was naive. What I never thought, though, is that my reaction would also be considered partisan.

Justifying racism, homophobia, and--in this case--dehumanizing atrocities has become a left versus right issue here, and it makes me very upset.

On the other hand, I appreciate how many posters are speaking out against homophobia. Thanks and I'll see you in the trash can and PBP threads.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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49,476
It's horrifying that there is a concentration camp for a group of people in the year 2017. It seems some people didn't learn anything from the 20th century.
 

text_skate

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I remember when I was surprised to see racist and homophobic posts on FSU, thinking it would be unusual for an international community of figure skating fans.
Why, I don't understand? Because international or figure skating? Imo lack of tolerance can be found everywhere.
 

vireo

Well-Known Member
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272
I've been reading horrible stories on line about the torture of gays in Chechnya. Hope the stories aren't true, but if they are, is there anything we can do to help stop it?
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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56,528
I remember when I was surprised to see racist and homophobic posts on FSU, thinking it would be unusual for an international community of figure skating fans.

I realize now that that reaction was naive. What I never thought, though, is that my reaction would also be considered partisan.

Justifying racism, homophobia, and--in this case--dehumanizing atrocities has become a left versus right issue here, and it makes me very upset.

On the other hand, I appreciate how many posters are speaking out against homophobia. Thanks and I'll see you in the trash can and PBP threads.
Extreme partisanship--where people choose what their position on an issue will be based on who else holds it and how they label themselves has become a huge problem. But its not evenly shared:

See this example:

Democrats:
37% support Trump's Syria strikes
38% supported Obama doing it

GOP:
86% supported Trump doing it
22% supported Obama doing
source: https://www.washingtonpost.com/worl...b2a45e3dc84_story.html?utm_term=.e027f51b6a7c

Its incredibly disturbing when people will see an issue of basic human rights as partisan rather than human.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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The same thing is at work over the term "tolerance" but I can't quite parse it out right now. Just that conservatives and liberals butt heads on the understanding of "tolerance" all the time.
I think the conservatives have turned the word "tolerance" into a strawman argument. For one thing, I've never really seen liberals running around saying "Being a liberal means I'm tolerant towards everyone." I know I don't think that supporting civil rights is about "tolerating" people. It's way more active than that. I use words like human rights and diversity.

But conservatives are constantly pretending that supporting minorities and other discriminated against groups means I have to be tolerant towards hate. That does not compute.

And I don't think it's an honest disagreement with a lot of them like the grab/pussy thing. I think it's deliberate just like calling people libtards and snowflakes is deliberate.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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56,528
I think the conservatives have turned the word "tolerance" into a strawman argument. For one thing, I've never really seen liberals running around saying "Being a liberal means I'm tolerant towards everyone." I know I don't think that supporting civil rights is about "tolerating" people. It's way more active than that. I use words like human rights and diversity.

But conservatives are constantly pretending that supporting minorities and other discriminated against groups means I have to be tolerant towards hate. That does not compute.

And I don't think it's an honest disagreement with a lot of them like the grab/pussy thing. I think it's deliberate just like calling people libtards and snowflakes is deliberate.
I'm not so sure. I think some people genuinely don't understand why people are supposed to be accepting about some things but not others. And I think that the word "tolerance" was used a lot in the past and conservatives kind of got stuck on it. I think that some people are genuinely confused about it. But they also think they have caught liberals in absolute "gotcha" when they haul out the "liberals aren't tolerant of such-and-such." And I think it is about assigning more importance to words than actions.

Admittedly, some conservatives manage to twist themselves into pretzels trying to show that liberals aren't being consistent because liberals say people should "tolerate" gay people but then liberals don't tolerate people who hate gay people. It must be rough trying to un-twist yourself from stuff like that.
 

Prancer

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I'm not so sure. I think some people genuinely don't understand why people are supposed to be accepting about some things but not others. And I think that the word "tolerance" was used a lot in the past and conservatives kind of got stuck on it.
"Tolerance" was a terrible word to use for what people meant by tolerance, which is why (most) liberals don't use it much any more and (some) conservatives can't let it go.
 

AxelAnnie

Graceful men lift lovely girls in white!
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I'm sure that Annie approves of those camps. Round 'em up and lock 'em up to spare her special snowflake alt-reich sensibilities.
Your remarks are unfounded and despicable. And how you put those opinions together from anything I said, is beyond me. BTW - being a Jew, I am not a proponent of any kind of camps.
 

VGThuy

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32,714
Wow, bless you, Spun Silver, for lending some balance to discussions. Bullies can only bully if allowed. No wonder that figure skating and ballet are both losing huge swaths of the US public. (For ex, the Kennedy Center here in DC, has tried, in last 2years, to inject a heavy-PC tinge to its ballet series, de-emphasizing traditional-European tutu-tiara ballets, in favor of companies of "color" hip-hop, etc. Traditional glamour is gone.)

Make Figure Skating and Ballet Great Again!

Back to topic: As disgusting as the camps sound, we have to think of the country/culture in which they happen. So is multi-culturalism ok only if other cultures prescribe to your own liberal agendas? Who is the most intolerant?
I don't think your post and your general personality will inspire any genuine discussion on this topic as it is clear how you're only using this to troll those who you perceive to be "the left". If you were really brave, you would say these views outside the comfort of a niche figure skating forum where you are somewhat notorious for your off-the-wall posts and get your kicks riling people up, and instead, actually speak to actual LGBTQ and other human rights scholars and activists who are devoting their whole professional lives figuring out this balance to get their take on this sort of discussion.

Let me ask you, are you really ok with politicizing this issue and only seeing the fight against the concentration and targeted violence and emotional harm committed against LGBTQ folks as a left agenda? What does that say about the right within your personal and simple binary system of left/right agenda?
 
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snoopy

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12,232
Liberals have crossed their own messages wrt the concept of tolerance, so if conservatives are confused about it, it is IMO understandable. Very few people these days argue for moral relativity but liberals used to rely on this argument a lot. For example, yes, I have absolutely heard liberals say we shouldn’t judge Iran for stoning adulterers to death because……… culture. Or FGM, another topic where we were instructed not to be “judgey” in the not so distant past.
 

allezfred

#EpidemiologistsNotEconomists
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Your remarks are unfounded and despicable. And how you put those opinions together from anything I said, is beyond me. BTW - being a Jew, I am not a proponent of any kind of camps.
Well that is good to know.

Now, while you are here you might want to do a bit of reading about the history of pride parades and why we have them.
 

Prancer

Needs More Sleep
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Liberals have crossed their own messages wrt the concept of tolerance, so if conservatives are confused about it, it is IMO understandable. Very few people these days argue for moral relativity but liberals used to rely on this argument a lot. For example, yes, I have absolutely heard liberals say we shouldn’t judge Iran for stoning adulterers to death because……… culture. Or FGM, another topic where we were instructed not to be “judgey” in the not so distant past.
I think this is true, which is why you don't see a lot of those arguments any more.

The same is true with the "tolerance" argument. People used to argue--here and elsewhere--that no one was being asked to LIKE X or PARTICIPATE in X, they were simply being asked to TOLERATE X. I still see that argument every now and then, although not nearly as often as I used to.

It's an illogical argument, among other issues, which is why it's an argument that has mostly died and the use of the word "tolerance" in that context has mostly died with it. It's very easy to point out the flaws in that reasoning, just as the moral relativity argument doesn't work. If X is a violation of human rights in A, why on earth would it not be a violation of human rights in B? Context is not everything.

However, unless someone actually makes that argument, it is rather foolish to react as if someone has. If someone sneers "Your beliefs suck," you aren't exactly scoring points off that person to sneer "You are intolerant!" in return.
 

Asli

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Let me ask you, are you really ok with politicizing this issue and only seeing the fight against the concentration and targeted violence and emotional harm committed against LGBTQ folks as a left agenda?
When right-wing people define LGBTQ rights issues as a left agenda, as a left-wing person I find that quite flattering. I mean, here we are, being given the exclusive ownership of one of THE most undeniably just causes in history!

I don't know what we did to deserve this honour because historically the left has been almost as bigoted and despicable to LGBTQ people as the right, but still, thank you! :encore:
 
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taf2002

Fluff up your tutu & dance away.....
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24,803
Who gives a damn about concentration camps for gays, apart from @skateboy? Apparently they are just another pretext for attacking political enemies.
Wow, just wow. Unbelievable!

Back to topic: As disgusting as the camps sound, we have to think of the country/culture in which they happen. So is multi-culturalism ok only if other cultures prescribe to your own liberal agendas? Who is the most intolerant?
Ick! When people defend the indefensible I have to wonder where their head is. But I'm lucky - I'm not a mod so I can put your hatefulness on ignore.

Wow. Just wow. It sounds like the entire gay population of Chechnya should automatically be given asylum and airlifted to Europe.

As difficult as it is to find humour in such a situation, the way Chechen authorities are squirming, at the same time trying to deny the existence of gay Chechens and to punish them for being gay - well, it's pretty funny. :rofl:
There is NOTHING funny about it, even the irony. Your :rofl: is misplaced, to put it kindly.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
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I've been reading horrible stories on line about the torture of gays in Chechnya. Hope the stories aren't true, but if they are, is there anything we can do to help stop it?
All Out is collecting funds to help evacuate gay men who are targeted. You can donate here:

can you donate to help pay for this emergency evacuation?

And I think that the word "tolerance" was used a lot in the past and conservatives kind of got stuck on it.
But not as a descriptor for liberals. It was telling conservatives that all that was required from them was some minimal tolerance. This usually happened after they'd say something to the effect that they can't endorse X action. And the response was: you don't have to enthusiastically embrace it. Just live and let live. But, honestly, I haven't seen that type of argument in about two decades. Whereas the "liberals/gays/etc. are the most intolerant people ever" seems to be a pretty recent line of defense.

BTW - being a Jew, I am not a proponent of any kind of camps.
Not even tennis camp? :slinkaway
 

Aerobicidal

Inspired by Selections
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10,737
I come from a Jewish family, and I found nothing wrong with AllezFred criticizing AxelAnnie for making homophobic comments on Passover. If Fred Phelps organized his biggest God Hates Fags march of all time on Easter Sunday, would that make him immune from criticism?

Oh yeah . . . since this thread started, Sean Spicer had engaged in Holocaust denial . . . also on Passover. Lucky for Nancy Pelosi he isn't Jewish, because otherwise she would have clearly engaged in even more troubling rhetoric by having the nerve (some might say chutzpah) to call for his dismissal!
:drama:
I'm sorry, this just made me laugh. Why would any religious holiday exempt someone on a secular board from disagreement and feedback on their words? Decent members of this board are sick of being told that coming out, aka being ourselves, is distasteful.

(and I am also not allowed to have her, or anyone, on ignore)
ITA and in addition:

If Fred Phelps organized his biggest God Hates Fags march of all time on Easter Sunday, would that make him immune from criticism?

Oh yeah . . . since this thread started, Sean Spicer had engaged in Holocaust denial . . . also on Passover. Lucky for Nancy Pelosi he isn't Jewish, because otherwise she would have clearly engaged in even more troubling rhetoric by having the nerve (some might say chutzpah) to call for his dismissal!

I'm not trying to imply that something posted on FSU is the same, either quantitatively or qualitatively, than a historical or current event. However, engaging in discourse that claims to deny the existence of queer people, speak for us, essentialize our experiences, and/or trivialize the implications of these claims about Chechnya--that is dehumanizing to me regardless of whether it's coming from the right, left, neither, or both, and no holiday should make those engaging in it immune from criticism.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
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14,523
I've been reading horrible stories on line about the torture of gays in Chechnya. Hope the stories aren't true, but if they are, is there anything we can do to help stop it?
More sanctions on Putin

Chechnya is a part of Russia and Russia has many laws considered homophobic but not in the same realm as Islamic homophobia.
 
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rfisher

Let the skating begin
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63,112
Liberals have crossed their own messages wrt the concept of tolerance, so if conservatives are confused about it, it is IMO understandable. Very few people these days argue for moral relativity but liberals used to rely on this argument a lot. For example, yes, I have absolutely heard liberals say we shouldn’t judge Iran for stoning adulterers to death because……… culture. Or FGM, another topic where we were instructed not to be “judgey” in the not so distant past.
The only people I've actually heard say or read that is academic cultural anthropologists and then only in an esoteric discussion. And, they say you should actually look at the root cause which is where change comes from. I actually have my students read about FGM. They are righteously indigent. Then I point out the socioeconomic issues faced by women who don't have the procedure done and that addressing those issues is how a practice like this is stopped.

Bigotry is most often rooted in fear. Ignoring the LGBTQ, or Black of Muslim or what ever group by declaring one isn't a bigot and proclaiming that "I treat everybody the same" means I'll pretend you're heterosexual, White or the same religion as me because that isn't scary, and doesn't address the root cause. I spend a great deal of time having my students discuss this when they talk about their patients. But, eventually they (well some of them) come to realize that "treating everybody the same" means ignoring and denying an individual who they are. Treating everybody with respect means learning about that individual's culture or sexuality or life experiences and acknowledging them. The two concepts are not at all the same.
 
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Cachoo

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More sanctions on Putin

Chechnya is a part of Russia and Russia has many laws considered homophobic but not in the same realm as Islamic homophobia.
I don't know casey---yes they may not be throwing men from buildings for being gay but if you watch any documentary about what it is like to be gay in the area it is damned scary. There is so much violence, so many threats and no recourse. And now we read of camps.....gee where I have read about gay men placed in concentration camps before?
 

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