Communism: 100 Years of dictatorship, gulags and mass murder in the tens of millions

[TAHbKA]

Russians aka Russian speaking Orthodox Christians who live in the ex-USSR countries , or all 12+ nations living in 12 countries that USSR became (minus the Baltics)?
Well, Turkmenistan turned into a true dictatorship with worshiping the president who is the sun of the nation.
Kazakhstan is not far behind with Azerbaijan in the tow.
Uzbekistan only recently even opebed for the foreing tourists.
Am clueless about Tajikistan and Kirgizstan but my bet is the are not much better.
I would be surprised to learn Georgia and Armenia liked the USSR much and yeah, Latvia/Lithuania/Estonia who only joined in the 40s certainly would give an opposite statistics

 

[Rina RUS]

@Rina RUS, aren't you like 20? 25?

I'm a bit older than you think.

I saw a map recently of all the former socialist republics to see how many of them think life was better under the USSR.

I'm NOT a person who thinks "life was better under the USSR". I can say once again: I think history isn't as simple as "everything was good" or "everything was bad".
I just think a headline like "Those who use nuclear weapons against other countries" isn't a sensible headline to describe USA, even though it is not less true than the headline "100 Years of mass murder". Maybe you also know that businessmen from some countries became rich thanks to WW2. Will it be fair to say such a country is a country of vampires drinking blood? I think it's clear that anyway many honest people from those countries didn't make money at deaths.
The headline of this thread looks almost like "Christianity is a bloody religion". (I think you know why the word "bloody" can stant next to the word "Christianity"?)

Maybe Mayakovski is a good example. When I was much younger, I disliked this poet, because I thought he just promoted "soviet" ideas, so he did something bad. Later I understood that he was really interesting as a poet, I also think he loved his country, he tried to do something good. He commited suicide (likely it was a suicide indeed). I think he was honest (think he believed in those ideas indeed). I think his work is useful even today - even if he was wrong partly.
I can't erase all the communists from the history of my country like I can't erase all the christians. And it would be silly to erase their experience, to erase all their ideas, their work.

How many times must it be pointed out: Lenin's Bolsheviks did not overthrow the Tsar!

I didn't say that bolsheviks overthrew the tsar. My words were about fighting against something bad, right? Those people were fighting against capitalists who were cruel to the working class, cruel even to children. I think it's important: partly those people were right. Many "capitalists" were cruel indeed, many "communists" turned out to be cruel, many "christians" were cruel. I think many "communists" or "christians" were so cruel, because they thought they were absolutely right and their enemies were absolutely wrong. So I believe that thinking that some other people are absolutely wrong is dangerous. So I even have no right to think all the communists were absolutely wrong.

have you been say, at least 5 y.o. by 1991?

In 1990s bandits were everywhere, life was difficult and unpredictable. Yet I think the situation could be much worse, because our country had nuclear weapon and many dangerous objects. I think we are lucky that we didn't have one more great revolution when some people drag weapon to this forest, some people stop a train in that forest - and nobody has enough people to control such a horizonless territory (with all those dangerous objects somewhere in forests).

 

[VGThuy]

It’s true. The horrors of Stalin and the USSR overshadowed the horrors of life in Russia pre-revolution. There’s a reason a revolution happened. Life was hell.

 

[Rina RUS]

It’s true. The horrors of Stalin and the USSR overshadowed the horrors of life in Russia pre-revolution. There’s a reason a revolution happened. Life was hell.

It was not about "horrors of life in Russia pre-revolution". The World War One was an important reason. And as for the ideas, it was about cruelty of capitalists in all the world. Other countries didn't have good laws too back then. People were fighting for their rights not only in Russia. Maybe the existence of USSR partly helped other countries to become better (when capitalists or governments saw that even such a revolution could happen, if they kept ignoring needs of their workers). These words don't justify those murders which took place in USSR. These words just mean USSR is a part of history.

I'm able to understand that some revolutionaries could sincerely believe they were fighting for a better life for decent people, but... they agreed, that everyone who seemed to be rich or didn't support the revolution was an "enemy of the people". They thought this time they had found the right enemy who killed people indeed or robbed them of their rights, so they agreed it was OK to kill such enemies or to rob them of their rights.
History shows people were wrong again: even if those who seems to be oppressors are turned into victims, the world doesn't turn into a good place. And it is also important, that in this situation often even an honest hard worker was turned into an "enemy of the people" without a strong reason.

 

[VGThuy]

Nothing you said contradicted what I said.

 

[Rina RUS]

Nothing you said contradicted what I said.

You said: "There’s a reason a revolution happened".
I just say that as for the reasons, it was not only about Russia.

 

[IceAlisa]

@Rina RUS, aren't you like 20? 25? Have you even been to the USSR? Aka have you been say, at least 5 y.o. by 1991? Or are you talking about something you read in the history books?

Whoa. Is this what they are doing to Russian youth?

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

"He Who Lives By The Hammer & Sickle.....". The pathetic death of an apologist. https://theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/10/malcolm-caldwell-pol-pot-murder

 

[Sylvia]

'Their goal is to destroy everyone': Uighur camp detainees allege systematic rape

In new testimony, former detainees of China's detention camps describe systematic rape and torture.

www.bbc.com

ETA:

'Uighur genocide policy is from China's leaders'

China's policy towards the Uighurs comes from the top, ex-British diplomat Charles Parton says.

www.bbc.com

 

[DORISPULASKI]

‘Survivor of the Chinese Gulag’: Uighur refugee in France recounts her ordeal

After three harrowing years in Chinese re-education camps, Gulbahar Haitiwaji, a Uighur woman who had been lured back to China from France only to be arrested, interrogated and abused, recounts her o…

www.france24.com

Uighur Refugee in France describes her Ordeal in Chinese "Reeducation Camp"

 

[caseyedwards]

What’s the reason navalny>Uighur

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Professional wrestler/actor John Cena got himself into hot water by referring to Taiwan as a 'country', and tried to save face with an 'apology'. Apparently his way of showing his 'love' for a people is by grovelling before the dictatorship that killed them in the 10s of millions and continues to oppress them ! https://cnn.com/2021/05/25/media/john-cena-china-taiwan-f9-intl-hnk/index.html

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

"He Who Lives By The Hammer & Sickle.....". The pathetic death of an apologist. https://theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2010/jan/10/malcolm-caldwell-pol-pot-murder

Since 'The Guardian" is restricting viewership to this article, here is a link to an unrestricted account. https://www.dissentmagazine.org/wp-content/files_mf/1389826305d16Ezra.pdf

 

[Dragonlady]

Also, why do people keep pimping for such a system? https://mises.org/wire/mainstream-economists-whitewashed-evils-communism

They not doing anything of the kind. Why do conservatives continually misrepresent the leftist policies?

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

They not doing anything of the kind. Why do conservatives continually misrepresent the leftist policies?

Quoting what many leftists (not all, but enough) say is not misrepresenting. I read the books "Political Pilgrims" by Paul Hollander, "In Denial" by John Earl Haynes, and "The Red Decade" by Eugene Lyons, and they are as thorough in their documentation of Gulag Denial as the Anti Defamation League is in it's documentation of Holocaust Denial by the Institute For Historical Review. And I don't see any difference between Gulag Denial and Holocaust Denial.

 

[Dragonlady]

Quoting what many leftists (not all, but enough) say is not misrepresenting. I read the books "Political Pilgrims" by Paul Hollander, "In Denial" by John Earl Haynes, and "The Red Decade" by Eugene Lyons, and they are as thorough in their documentation of Gulag Denial as the Anti Defamation League is in it's documentation of Holocaust Denial by the Institute For Historical Review. And I don't see any difference between Gulag Denial and Holocaust Denial.

I hadn't noticed any Gulags in Canada, Norway, or Great Britain, or any other socialist democracy. The gulags existed only in Communist Russia, and no one has every denied their existence.

Your reading is simply "bias confirmation". Communism died in 1989. And there were never commies under every bed.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

I hadn't noticed any Gulags in Canada, Norway, or Great Britain, or any other socialist democracy. The gulags existed only in Communist Russia, and no one has every denied their existence.

Your reading is simply "bias confirmation". Communism died in 1989. And there were never commies under every bed.

For beginners, you're putting words into my mouth. I only cited communist dictatorships for criticism of gulags, never socialist democracies. The only time I use the word 'Socialist' was in reference to a YouTube segment, referring to it's title about Mao's Great Leap Forward, or in reference to contemporary leftists (again, not all of them, but still more than a handful) amnesia about their touting of communist dictatorships when they were around, and then when they collapsed, would shrug this off, saying "But that wasn't real socialism". Again, quoting their words. Second, you say 'no one ever denied their existence' ? Do I have to cite authors Haynes, Hollander and Lyons again about their well-documented account of such defenders, and again by quoting such defenders own words ? Third, I never said there were 'commies under every bed'. Or implied it. Read the part where I said "Not all (leftists) but enough". Finally, you say Communism died in 1989. Tell that to those in the Cuban, Laotian and North Korean gulags.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Many things to criticize the post-Mao government in China about, their one-child policy is one. https://www.pbs.org/independentlens...y-legacy-on-women-and-relationships-in-china/

 

[shine]

Many things to criticize the post-Mao government in China about, their one-child policy is one. https://www.pbs.org/independentlens...y-legacy-on-women-and-relationships-in-china/

Yes, because we need to criticize both the one child policy that aimed to mitigate China’s overpopulation problem as well as all the environmental damages as a result of China’s overpopulation.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Man, if these could result in some kind of reform: Mass protests in Cuba

 

[skatingguy]

Man, if these could result in some kind of reform: Mass protests in Cuba

The fact that the government survived the transition away from the Castros probably means that it is hear to stay, and the country's aging population is unlikely to push to hard for significant change. Cuba is one of a number of countries in the world that will see significant population declines in the next few decades & it will be interesting to see the impact of these reverse population pyramids have on autocratic leaders. So far the results aren't promising.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

Don't be too pessimistic about change, the internet is helping Cubans express themselves internationally: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xRqGXUJ0Z4M

 

[Dragonlady]

For beginners, you're putting words into my mouth. I only cited communist dictatorships for criticism of gulags, never socialist democracies. The only time I use the word 'Socialist' was in reference to a YouTube segment, referring to it's title about Mao's Great Leap Forward, or in reference to contemporary leftists (again, not all of them, but still more than a handful) amnesia about their touting of communist dictatorships when they were around, and then when they collapsed, would shrug this off, saying "But that wasn't real socialism". Again, quoting their words. Second, you say 'no one ever denied their existence' ? Do I have to cite authors Haynes, Hollander and Lyons again about their well-documented account of such defenders, and again by quoting such defenders own words ? Third, I never said there were 'commies under every bed'. Or implied it. Read the part where I said "Not all (leftists) but enough". Finally, you say Communism died in 1989. Tell that to those in the Cuban, Laotian and North Korean gulags.

You conflate socialism and communism. Yes, you do have to cite Haynes, Hollander and Lyons, because I have neither heard of nor read ANY of them. I even searched Amazon and came up empty on ANYTHING related to politics.

But your recollections, and apparently these authors you cite, seem to think there was praise for communist countries. There was not. There was concern about the number of brutal authoritarian right wing dictatorships around the world. When the people rose up in many of these countries, like Iran or Chile, the CIA overthrew the democratically elected left wing government, claiming it a communist, and installed the most repressive and brutal right wing dictatorships in either nation's history. "Better dead than red" wasn't just a bumper sticker.

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

You conflate socialism and communism. Yes, you do have to cite Haynes, Hollander and Lyons, because I have neither heard of nor read ANY of them. I even searched Amazon and came up empty on ANYTHING related to politics.

But your recollections, and apparently these authors you cite, seem to think there was praise for communist countries. There was not. There was concern about the number of brutal authoritarian right wing dictatorships around the world. When the people rose up in many of these countries, like Iran or Chile, the CIA overthrew the democratically elected left wing government, claiming it a communist, and installed the most repressive and brutal right wing dictatorships in either nation's history. "Better dead than red" wasn't just a bumper sticker.

Where do I conflate socialism and communism? Which posting? On my post (#29 on this thread) Nov. 13th 2017, I made reference to a habit of many on the left, again once again, not all, but enough to make mention of, touting 'Socialist' dictatorships during their heyday, only to have amnesia over their erstwhile support, and try to retroactively claim 'But that wasn't real socialism!'. And I in the first instance put the word Socialist in single quote marks. In case you misread the importance of that, it was to call into question the validity of the description. When the title of the former dictatorship was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, and when western marxists themselves keep referring to the system they themselves applaud as 'socialist', what can one do? Again, the only governments I've criticized on this thread for gulags were communist ones.

And I did link to an article on western historians who had a soft spot for communist dictatorships when they were up, and amnesia over their erstwhile support for such. Fools For Communism

You doubt that there was praise for communist dictatorships? Just google for the eulogies for Fidel Castro made by my own Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and NDP leader Jagmeet Singh, for starters. Then go on to the praise for Stalin by playwright Lillian Hellman, author Dashiel Hammett, philosopher Sartre, and countless others.

As for your last point. I'm well aware that the CIA was involved in the overthrow of elected governments. And I have never supported those actions. Never.

 

[Rina RUS]

This thread is amazing!
Cuba???
Kara-Murza tells about Cuba in his book.
Before the revolution USA ruled Cuba. Kara-Murza tells about girls with beautiful faces who had crooked legs, because they had almost nothing to eat when they were kids. When USA ruled Cuba, they gave only a loaf of bread to a worker instead of paying him and allowed him to eat sugar-cane. When they brought Afro-Americans to Cuba, people of Cuba even had no work.
After the revolution Soviet Union had been helping Cuba. For example, wiki says Cuba has very good doctors now.

История Кубы — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Later Kara-Murza saw another generation on Cuba. This young generation had healthy bodies.
What about USA? in 1960 USA started bombing Cuba

Империализм США и Кубинская революция (Часть 2)

Попытки североамериканских империалистов нанести ущерб экономике Кубы осуществлялись с момента победы кубинской революции и особенно усилились после принятия закона об аграрной реформе. Но в начале 1960 г, империалисты США сочли эти меры недостаточными и перешли к фронтальному наступлению на...

prometej.info

It is 2021 now. USA are talking about bombing Cuba again
https://ria.ru/20210714/bombardirovka-1741301876.html

Now people in this thread think they may judge what is good for Cuba. People in this thread think that Soviet Union which was helping Cuba, was an “Evil Empire”.
Even slavery was possible in USA, when USA already were a democracy, but people here think that a democracy is just always better.
Do you know a sad joke about American “democracy”?
“You still don’t have democracy in your country? We are coming to bomb you!”
I don’t say that soviet history was flawless, but I think this thread is full of arrogance.

 

[skatingguy]

Question to the Americans - What branch of the US military does the Mayor of Miami control?

 

[Rina RUS]

Question to the Americans - What branch of the US military does the Mayor of Miami control?

Do you believe that other politicians in USA are smarter than the Mayor of Miami?
USA admit that USA killed civilians in Syria and Iraq (when they bombed those countries)

США признали проблему с мирными жертвами своих ударов в Сирии и Ираке

Аналитики работающей на правительство США американской корпорации RAND признали проблему с числом жертв авиаударов военно-воздушных сил страны среди мирных жителей Ирака и Сирии и рекомендовали снизить гражданские потери в будущем. Такие данные содержатся в 500-страничном исследовании «Воздушная...

iz.ru

 

[skatingguy]

We must be a really low priority based on the level of pro-Putin propaganda we get here on FSU. Be Better.

 

[Rina RUS]

it has nothing to do with Putin
it was about Cuba, USSR, USA

 

[Jot the Dot Dot]

This thread is amazing!
Cuba???
Kara-Murza tells about Cuba in his book.
Before the revolution USA ruled Cuba. Kara-Murza tells about girls with beautiful faces who had crooked legs, because they had almost nothing to eat when they were kids. When USA ruled Cuba, they gave only a loaf of bread to a worker instead of paying him and allowed him to eat sugar-cane. When they brought Afro-Americans to Cuba, people of Cuba even had no work.
After the revolution Soviet Union had been helping Cuba. For example, wiki says Cuba has very good doctors now.

История Кубы — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

Later Kara-Murza saw another generation on Cuba. This young generation had healthy bodies.
What about USA? in 1960 USA started bombing Cuba

Империализм США и Кубинская революция (Часть 2)

Попытки североамериканских империалистов нанести ущерб экономике Кубы осуществлялись с момента победы кубинской революции и особенно усилились после принятия закона об аграрной реформе. Но в начале 1960 г, империалисты США сочли эти меры недостаточными и перешли к фронтальному наступлению на...

prometej.info

It is 2021 now. USA are talking about bombing Cuba again
https://ria.ru/20210714/bombardirovka-1741301876.html

Now people in this thread think they may judge what is good for Cuba. People in this thread think that Soviet Union which was helping Cuba, was an “Evil Empire”.
Even slavery was possible in USA, when USA already were a democracy, but people here think that a democracy is just always better.
Do you know a sad joke about American “democracy”?
“You still don’t have democracy in your country? We are coming to bomb you!”
I don’t say that soviet history was flawless, but I think this thread is full of arrogance.

I've seen this line of rebuttal before, where the response is not so much a refutation as an attempted nullification.

Did I ever say that the history of democracy in America was spotless? Have you missed all my posts in the thread about police brutality where without exception I'm critical of such behavior? Or the thread I myself started "Lunacy in the war on drugs"? Or the umpteen posts I've done in this forum where I'm critical of actions of the American government? (Or conversely, applaud decisions where unjust rulings are reversed).

What I recommend (and will speak out about in my own capacity) for Cuba is the same thing I universally recommend for all nations: a liberalization (using the term in it's classic sense) of their society where the government is there to defend the citizen's rights. Same reason why I'm vehemently critical of the US War On Drugs, the various nations where homosexuality is punishable by death, where dissent is outlawed, and freedom of religion is nonexistent. Should Cubans not have the right to criticize their own government, if not, why not? Why should past or present actions by the American government have anything to do with the question of rights in Cuba or anywhere else? Incase this tidbit has escaped your attention, I'm not an American, I'm a Canadian, and have no moral responsibility for the actions of U.S. administrations from Kennedy onwards.