#Canada150 (Canadian politics and related issues)

skatingguy

Golden Team
Messages
5,425
I don’t understand why the Conservatives want Trudeau to resign.

Do they not understand that their best chance in October is if Trudeau stays in?

If Trudeau resigned and someone like Freeland became party leader, the Liberals would win another landslide.
They don't want him to resign, but they do want to make every Liberal MP and candidate answer the question 'Do you think the Prime Minister should resign?'.
 

WildRose

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,754
Coyne has a very selective reading of the facts, but then Coyne is a partisan conservative writing in the National Post, for a conservative audience. There is no mention of the unethical taping of private conservations by Wilson-Raybould. And while I do believe that Trudeau has handled this very badly, I strongly disagree with Coyne's assertions that Trudeau should be tossed from office for this.

SNC Lavalin has donated just as much money to the Conservative Party as the Liberal, and the Conservatives have been just as willing as the Liberals to play ball with the scams and their schemes. Wilson-Raybould is the ONLY person from either party who wanted to call them to accounts. Let's not pretend otherwise.
The National Post leans Conservative just as the Globe and the Star and the CBC lean Liberal but reporters don’t always reflect the editorial policies of their newspapers or even follow them. It was the Globe and Mail who broke this story in the first place and the Star has been critical too. Coyne is not a Conservative and he is on record as not supporting Stephen Harper in the last election. He supported the NDP. As for SNC donations. Facts are facts. The records are there to see for yourself if you don’t trust the CBC report from the trial that I posted.

Look, I know his followers are concerned, and I think they should be, but rest assured, if your Prince goes down, it will be because his own party does him in, and ultimately either the Green Party or the NDP may benefit more than the Conservatives who have a weak Leader. I still see Liberals winning Quebec, and in the end it will still likely be up to Ontario as usual. (Although Vancouver could get interesting if the NDP or Greens surge there. Elizabeth May is picking up support across the country. JWR going Green could attract some Liberal voters.) Regardless. Other stuff is going to make SNC Lavalin go away before the election. Six months is a very long time in politics. Trudeau has got lots of time to recover.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
29,390
Wilson-Raybould is the ONLY person from either party who wanted to call them to accounts. Let's not pretend otherwise.
And good on her!

I don’t understand why the Conservatives want Trudeau to resign.

Do they not understand that their best chance in October is if Trudeau stays in?
Interested in why you say this.

The National Post leans Conservative just as the Globe and the Star and the CBC lean Liberal but reporters don’t always reflect the editorial policies of their newspapers or even follow them. It was the Globe and Mail who broke this story in the first place and the Star has been critical too. Coyne is not a Conservative and he is on record as not supporting Stephen Harper in the last election.
If you say so. But I didn't find that article to be the objective laying out of the facts that I was looking for. That other article that looked at it from the POV of the law was much better that way. Heavy slogging through it but at least I can see what is going on now.

It really comes down to how much pressure and in what form was put on Wilson-Raybould as to whether the law was broken IMO. Which makes the recording that much more interesting as it could shed light on that. I've only seen mention that it exists. Has a transcript been published?
 

pat c

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,115
And good on her.
Interested in why you say this.
re: Trudeau resigning.

Why? Cuz they can milk this and keep it in the public eye and use it as a club all the way to the election. ;)

MacMadame said:
If you say so. But I didn't find that article to be the objective laying out of the facts that I was looking for. That other article that looked at it from the POV of the law was much better that way. Heavy slogging through it but at least I can see what is going on now.

It really comes down to how much pressure and in what form was put on Wilson-Raybould as to whether the law was broken IMO. Which makes the recording that much more interesting as it could shed light on that. I've only seen mention that it exists. Has a transcript been published?
I think this is what you're looking for:
https://globalnews.ca/news/5112044/jody-wilson-raybould-michael-wernick-secret-call-transcript/
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,338
Curious Australian browser chiming in here....

Wouldn’t recommend that any political party start thinking about knifing a sitting prime minister over polls etc.

We did that for the first time a decade ago and ever since then it’s been a procession of rolling heads and I don’t think we’ve had one PM of any political persuasion who has lasted a full term. Hence the running joke that the Australian prime minister is like Doctor Who.... regenerates every few months. :gallopin1

It’s a bit like Anne Boleyn - you get rid of one wife, then you’re next and so on and so forth.

Once the parties started a habit of rolling a PM at the first sign of trouble (and there’s always going to be periods of trouble when you hold the highest office in the country) it got addictive and then every man and his dog wanted a turn at being PM.
 
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skategal

Bunny mama
Messages
5,935
re: Trudeau resigning.

Why? Cuz they can milk this and keep it in the public eye and use it as a club all the way to the election. ;)
Yes, plus the SMC-Lavalin scandal is linked to the PM and his office. PM goes, it sure won't stick to the next leader.

Freeland would be the likely successor and she would wipe the floor with Scheer.

So not sure why Scheer keeps calling for Trudeau to resign??? :confused:
 

starrynight

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,338
Out of interest, has Canada recently replaced a sitting Prime Minister?

It's just that my country has an awful lot of experience with it, and I can attest that it has never been a good look for the party that does it and there certainly hasn't been any success stories from it. A hung parliament, a lost election, a one seat majority and then now a likely forthcoming gouging is what has happened/will happen after the last four PMs were thrown out by their own party. (There was actually a point where I'd lost track of who was running the country)

Sorry if I'm banging on about it from the sidelines, but yeah, from a country that knows, it isn't a good thing.
 

Desperado

Well-Known Member
Messages
818
Nothing would please me more than to have the opportunity to vote for Freeland. I sadly don’t think it’s in the cards for October, as Trudeau will not resign.

We haven’t “knifed” 😁 recent sitting PMs @starrynight. When Chrétien was PM a slow revolt lead by Paul Martin his Finance Minister brewed for many years, split the party in two, until Chrétien was forced to retire. The whole pissing contest destroyed the Liberal party for many years (much more than any talk of corruption). There are MPs in Cabinet and caucus now who remember this vividly which I assume is why they’re standing by the PM now.
 

Dragonlady

Sew Happy
Messages
10,281
CBC: January 2019
Key figure in illegal election financing scheme quietly pleads guilty.
https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/trudeau-is-making-canada-safe-for-corruption-again-with-the-snc-lavalin-case#comments-area

“The vast majority of the money contributed between 2004 and 2011 went to the federal Liberal Party. According to a 2016 compliance agreement with SNC Lavalin, the Liberal Party of Canada received $83,534 while various Liberal riding associations received $13,552.
Contestants in the Liberal Party's 2006 leadership race got $12,529.”
.......
“The scheme was similar to one that Quebec's Charbonneau Commission was told SNC Lavalin operated at the provincial and municipal levels. The inquiry was told that managers at the company donated more than $1 million between 1998 and 2010 — divided almost equally between the Quebec Liberal Party and the Parti Québécois.”
............
The Conservative Party of Canada netted far less as a result of the scheme. The party received $3,137, while various Conservative Party riding associations and candidates were given $5,050.
..........
Historically SNC is very much Liberal/PQ and there is tons of information available online verifying this. (Not sure why people are blaming PM Harper for decisions made by Liberal Premiers in Ontario but whatever.)

Here’s a little more background from the Financial Times for for anyone who is interested. It is is an opinion piece but people can research the facts themselves and I have seen more detailed numbers pulled up by reputable media as they continue to dig into this so it is available. People can look it up themselves if they want.

https://business.financialpost.com/opinion/trudeau-is-making-canada-safe-for-corruption-again-with-the-snc-lavalin-case#comments-area
SNL Lavalin made such huge contributions to Liberals and BQ in Quebec because the chances of Conservatives EVER getting elected in Quebec are slim and none.
 

Habs

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,268
Today, in Alberta, after weeks of a nasty smear campaign - we vote.
This has been the nastiest election period I can remember. The campaigns, for the most part, have been based on negativity. It's so disheartening.
 

Jenny

From the Bloc
Messages
20,823
It will be interesting to see the voter turnout I think - do voters respond to mudslinging, fearmongering and finger pointing, or will they throw up their hands in disgust?

Might tell a lot about how the federal election will be conducted.
 

puglover

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,688
I wanted to hear what they were prepared to do to help small business (and I don't own a small business) - not a bunch of mudslinging!
 

WildRose

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,754
Blame the media - all they covered was sensationalist mud slinging garbage. UCP has a fully developed detailed platform as do some of the other parties, yet day after day of this crap and nothing on the real issues. I stopped reading what passes as election coverage long ago. People have made up their minds. Highest early voter turnout ever.
 

Jenny

From the Bloc
Messages
20,823
Blame the media - all they covered was sensationalist mud slinging garbage. UCP has a fully developed detailed platform as do some of the other parties, yet day after day of this crap and nothing on the real issues. I stopped reading what passes as election coverage long ago. People have made up their minds. Highest early voter turnout ever.
Interesting, because in the last Ontario election, it was the opposite. Media tried their darnedest to make it about issues, perhaps because that's certainly what the Liberals and NDP did if you watched the debates and most of their press events.

But Doug Ford and the PCs were another story. He actually banned media from his campaign bus, didn't give any statements in scrums or at public events, put a muzzle on all his candidates so that they could only talk about local issues, and in the biggest WTF of all, never released a campaign platform. Come to think of it, I don't remember him doing much mudslinging etc either, because in the end he said as little as possible.

Maybe the average voter doesn't care about issues and solutions after all.
 

Habs

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,268
Blame the media - all they covered was sensationalist mud slinging garbage. UCP has a fully developed detailed platform as do some of the other parties, yet day after day of this crap and nothing on the real issues. I stopped reading what passes as election coverage long ago. People have made up their minds. Highest early voter turnout ever.
I agree with this. The two main parties did nothing but criticize each other and that's what was covered. The actual policies and platforms got very little attention - just the bastardized versions that the opposing party highlighted.
I don't like the Alberta NDP and I don't like the Alberta UCP - and they were equally bad about the mudslinging. Yet, I've noticed NDP supporters seem to think they have the moral high ground here.
If anything, this campaign period has made me realize that one side isn't better than the other.
 

kylet3

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,343
Exactly what I expected and I am extremely disappointed with the results. I've had the chance to interact with Premier Notley on several occasions and she is hands down one of the most down-to-earth, friendly people I have ever met. I have a penchant for being able to see through put on BS, and there is absolutely NONE of that with her. They took over at a time when we experienced a huge crash in oil. This government has steered us through the absolute worst of it by making sure that schools, roads, hospitals, and transit are being built, making sure that women and LGBTQ peoples were protected, and leading with a pragmatic and practical style.

There's no question there was more work to do, but Jason Kenney was able to capitalize on people's fears about the economy and the energy industry as a whole. That said, what he fed people was pure and utter nonsense. The days of being able to get a high school diploma and go work up in Fort McMurray for six figures are gone, those jobs are NEVER coming back. Gone are the days of $100 oil and the nature of the big boom. The oil industry is dying by it's own hand. Yes it hasn't helped that we haven't gotten a pipeline to tidewater to access other markets, but people here need to realize that a lot of the world is moving away from fossil fuels and towards greener and more renewable technologies. The United States has become the biggest exporter of oil and gas on the planet, they don't need our oil nearly as much as they used to. The notion that Kenney will be able to get a pipeline built any quicker is a fallacy. While he may be counting on Andrew Scheer to win federally, that is nowhere near a sure thing, this thing will be still be tied up in litigation from opposition and indigenous groups opposed to TMX. By getting rid of the cap on oilsands emissions and scrapping the provincial carbon levy also means that Trudeau may be so inclined to kick the can down the road and wait on approval of permits. There's a whole lot more votes to be won in metro Vancouver, the GTA and Quebec on the whole.

The UCP also made this VERY personal for me. As someone who is part of the LGBTQ community, with the constant attacks (the pride flag being compared to the Swastika, being compared to pedophilia, saying that our love isn't the same, advocating for LGBTQ teachers to be fired, and it goes on and on), and by keeping these candidates and refusing to apologize tells me all I need to know. He's beholden to his base of bigots and homophobes, so now I'm preparing to organize and fight back against this intolerance with everything I have, because I will never let these as*hats win. I have to fight for the LGBTQ kids now who are going to be terrified at being outed now (which will have life and death implications for these kids), it continues.

He also made it extremely personal for me with his backwards promises on health care, no mater how you look at it, there is no way he is going to do what he has promised without it affecting front line services. His promise to deliver more private services as well could have a direct impact on my mom. She is on hard chemo at the Cross Cancer Institute in Edmonton, and if he makes the changes he's talking about and she ends up on a wait list for chemo or has to pay out of pocket, she literally won't survive. This is life and death for me and my family. If this happens, to her or anyone else, their blood will be on Kenney's fingers.

While I am disappointed, I know the NDP will be a very effective and organized opposition. They will fight with everything they have and I'm looking to seeing Rachel Notley be a thorn in the side of Jason Kenney at every turn. Last night I agonized, today, I organize and fight with everything I have.
 

puglover

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,688
The people I know who wanted a change in government wanted it because they have experienced first hand 4 years of high unemployment, recession, and slow growth. Maybe not all the government's fault - but usually the first place blame goes. The turnout was so high because it is an angry electorate. They want to fight the carbon tax. They are not against raising the minimum wage or lower day care costs or many other social programs - but they are also afraid of the deficits getting larger that they will pass on to future generations.
 

WildRose

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,754
Massive turnout. I was checking results this morning and it will be interesting to see the final numbers in some of the Edtn ridings. Because I had to vote absentee ballot (hospital) my vote hasn’t even been counted yet. Results in my riding won’t change - the boundary’s were changed to include a safe inner city blue collar NDP neighbourhood, but I still want my vote counted and it appears to be actually closer than I expected. (It’s a shame, because my candidate was a young well educated immigrant from Africa who would have made a good representative.) My son’s neighbourhood is a newer, younger one on the south side - still a possibility it could end up UPC. They worked hard here to try and get us some people in Cabinet. Edtn has always been ‘Redmonton’ though and the Govt jobs are all here so people do worry. The unions do an excellent job of getting out their vote in Edtn and I have a lot of respect for their campaign skills. Notley’s Hubby is one of the CUPE honchos, not a chance they wouldn’t have her back. I’ve always respected her, and I believe in a strong Opposition which she will lead well, although I think the long term plan is for her to run for federal leadership which could be sooner rather than later.

The people I know who wanted a change in government wanted it because they have experienced first hand 4 years of high unemployment, recession, and slow growth. Maybe not all the government's fault - but usually the first place blame goes. The turnout was so high because it is an angry electorate. They want to fight the carbon tax. They are not against raising the minimum wage or lower day care costs or many other social programs - but they are also afraid of the deficits getting larger that they will pass on to future generations.
 

fsfann

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,233
I watched the coverage on election night, and I'm really surprised that people made it sound at all like the results were surprising. With the merger of the PCs and Wild Rose, there was no way in hell that they wouldn't win.

Yes, some of the original supporters of either of those parties may not have supported the UCP, but at the end of hte day, Alberta is a safe conservative province... Hearing newscasters trying to make it a big story about "we wonder who will win..." and "wow....amazing that the NDP only lasted a term." When it should have been: "The NDP won last time because the PCs and Wild Rose split the vote in a highly conservative province."
 

Habs

Well-Known Member
Messages
5,268
I watched the coverage on election night, and I'm really surprised that people made it sound at all like the results were surprising. With the merger of the PCs and Wild Rose, there was no way in hell that they wouldn't win.

Yes, some of the original supporters of either of those parties may not have supported the UCP, but at the end of hte day, Alberta is a safe conservative province... Hearing newscasters trying to make it a big story about "we wonder who will win..." and "wow....amazing that the NDP only lasted a term." When it should have been: "The NDP won last time because the PCs and Wild Rose split the vote in a highly conservative province."
This. 100%.
 

WildRose

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,754
Anyone have any thoughts on PEI election? Will Green Party be able to do it? Is pre election polling there usually fairly accurate?
 

fsfann

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,233
Anyone have any thoughts on PEI election? Will Green Party be able to do it? Is pre election polling there usually fairly accurate?
I suspect they might, but PEI is a strange place because the size of the constituencies are SO small. A hundred votes here and there can drastically change the outcome. I also think that a lot of their support is with younger people, who tend not to show up to vote.

I suspect that the PCs might end up taking it, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Greens pull it off.
 

skategal

Bunny mama
Messages
5,935
The latest poll released yesterday says the Greens will take it.

Who knows? It will be fun to watch.

It is the land of Green Gables so it is possible.:D
 

WildRose

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,754
The latest poll released yesterday says the Greens will take it.

Who knows? It will be fun to watch.

It is the land of Green Gables so it is possible.:D
I have never had the chance to go there but it looks like such a beautiful and peaceful place. 👍🏼
 

fsfann

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,233
Spoke to a friend of mine on PEI yesterday and he said he doesn't think the Greens will pull it off. Expects a PC win. (for what that's worth).

Also, tragic news about their Green Party candidate who passed away yesterday, along with his 6 year old son. Tragic canoe accident is what I was told. :(
 

WildRose

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,754
Spoke to a friend of mine on PEI yesterday and he said he doesn't think the Greens will pull it off. Expects a PC win. (for what that's worth).

Also, tragic news about their Green Party candidate who passed away yesterday, along with his 6 year old son. Tragic canoe accident is what I was told. :(
Thx for the update, but OMG that is awful! Such a sad thing.
 

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