BREXIT - The Final Countdown?

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Louis

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Pardon my ignorance but does this mean that UK'rs now have to carry passports to travel through Europe?

Brits have always had to carry passports as the UK has no identity card (except for a brief period when one was introduced and then quickly pulled). Driver’s licenses are not valid national IDs. The rules are different between the UK and the Republic of Ireland where any form of photo ID will do.

The Schengen Area, which includes most EU countries plus the EEA countries and Switzerland, is introducing a travel pre-authorization (basically an e-visa) next year. Brits will require that, as will other non-EU/EEA countries.

The other change is that EU nationals will need a passport to come to the UK beginning in 2021, with ID cards no longer accepted. To be honest, this is a good change as some of the ID cards (especially Italy and Greece) are still paper based, have no real security features, and are some of the most easily forged in the world. My carta d’identità has a glued picture, a wet signature, and looks more like a three-year old’s nursery school project than a document valid for international travel. EU/EEA nationals will still be able to use the UK biometric passport gates (and generally having a passport makes travel faster between Schengen and non-Schengen EU/EEA member states).
 

Peaches LaTour

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Brits have always had to carry passports as the UK has no identity card (except for a brief period when one was introduced and then quickly pulled). Driver’s licenses are not valid national IDs. The rules are different between the UK and the Republic of Ireland where any form of photo ID will do.

The Schengen Area, which includes most EU countries plus the EEA countries and Switzerland, is introducing a travel pre-authorization (basically an e-visa) next year. Brits will require that, as will other non-EU/EEA countries.

The other change is that EU nationals will need a passport to come to the UK beginning in 2021, with ID cards no longer accepted. To be honest, this is a good change as some of the ID cards (especially Italy and Greece) are still paper based, have no real security features, and are some of the most easily forged in the world. My carta d’identità has a glued picture, a wet signature, and looks more like a three-year old’s nursery school project than a document valid for international travel. EU/EEA nationals will still be able to use the UK biometric passport gates (and generally having a passport makes travel faster between Schengen and non-Schengen EU/EEA member states).


Whoa! I had no clue. Thanks for the info.
 

Louis

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UK post-Brexit immigration system has been unveiled. Let the transition to "Singapore-on-Thames" begin.

I'm sure all the Brexit voters who wanted immigration control will be delighted to know that there will be NO CAP on skilled immigration. I predict Britain is going to look a whole lot more Indian and Chinese (and possibly sound more American, if Trump is re-elected) given that this seems to be a significant loosening of the EU (protectionist) policies.

There will be no visas at all for unskilled workers. Expect a lot of Prets, care homes, and cleaning companies to go bust. Priti and Boris have basically told businesses to suck it :p: train and retain, or just "automate their jobs away" :rofl:. Maybe the NHS employee base will magically become 80% robots by next year.

I predict that this will blow up spectacularly and be significantly revamped within two years. But if you want to come live in Britain and have a university degree, 2021 or 2022 may be your golden opportunity.

 

allezfred

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I predict Britain is going to look a whole lot more Indian and Chinese (and possibly sound more American, if Trump is re-elected) given that this seems to be a significant loosening of the EU (protectionist) policies.

Britain was never in the Schengen area though so I’m not seeing how this is a “loosening” of anything related to that. The U.K. had full control of its immigration from outside the EU while it was an EU member.
 

Louis

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Schengen or not, the UK had to comply with EU rules about advertising jobs for 28 days, interviewing a certain number of EU nationals, and proving that no EU national could do the job. The full guidance hasn't been published, but the process sure looks like it's going to get a lot easier.

For all the Brexit fearmongering and xenophobia about Turkey and other Muslim countries joining the EU (never going to happen!) and having unfettered access to come live in the UK, I suspect Brexit will result in jobs that used to be taken by non-Muslim EU citizens being taken by Muslims. :shuffle:
 

allezfred

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Louis

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From the BBC:

The first of six specially chartered flights from Romania to London will land on Thursday afternoon carrying 150 people to assist British farmers pick fruit and vegetables.

Despite a high profile "Pick for Britain" campaign appealing to students and laid-off hospitality workers to help with the harvest, not enough British workers have come forward.

The six flights were privately chartered by large UK food producers and will land between now and June.

The National Farmers Union estimates a shortage of 70,000 seasonal farm workers that has been exacerbated by the ********* 19 lockdown.

:shuffle: :shuffle: :shuffle:
 

skatingguy

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There aren't local citizens who can do that?
Very few who will do that kind of back-breaking work for that amount of money.
These are the number that I've seen in the news today. I think for many people it's a nice idea to go to the country to work on a farm, but the reality is less appealing to most of the applicants.

Stephanie Maurel, its chief executive, told the BBC's Today programme that 36,000 people had registered interest and more than 6,000 had conducted a video interview.

But in the last 10 days, while almost 900 people had been offered jobs, just 112 have agreed contracts to accept employment.

 

snoopy

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Caseyedwards point was if they paid more they could get local workers. I agree. We’d have to pay more for food though.
 

MacMadame

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Well, I think we are all making the same point. Which is that there aren't citizens willing to do this work for what the employers are willing to pay.
 

Louis

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The workers in this case aren’t “illegals”.

Not yet, but I think it points to the fact that come 1/1/2021, businesses will either need to resort to visas (with additional administrative expense) or illegal immigration. The government has been saying 2500 visas will be allocated, while the farmers are saying 70,000 workers are needed.

Any EU/EEA national will still be able to enter the UK with a biometric passport via eGates without ever speaking to anyone. Do we really think farmers are going to go through the visa process and spend time trying to hire locals (which has proven unsuccessful) to fill a gap of 67,500 workers, or are they just going to invite some Romanian friends to come "on holiday?" Illegal immigration is going to be inevitable from this policy, unless something changes.

What I can't figure out is whether the UK government is OK with illegal immigration - turning a blind eye to Romanians and Bulgarians coming, as long as they have no right to stay, no right to benefits, and can be deported at any time. It's possible that they've calculated that the cheapest option for the government is illegal immigration.
 

allezfred

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Not yet, but I think it points to the fact that come 1/1/2021, businesses will either need to resort to visas (with additional administrative expense) or illegal immigration. The government has been saying 2500 visas will be allocated, while the farmers are saying 70,000 workers are needed.

Any EU/EEA national will still be able to enter the UK with a biometric passport via eGates without ever speaking to anyone. Do we really think farmers are going to go through the visa process and spend time trying to hire locals (which has proven unsuccessful) to fill a gap of 67,500 workers, or are they just going to invite some Romanian friends to come "on holiday?" Illegal immigration is going to be inevitable from this policy, unless something changes.

What I can't figure out is whether the UK government is OK with illegal immigration - turning a blind eye to Romanians and Bulgarians coming, as long as they have no right to stay, no right to benefits, and can be deported at any time. It's possible that they've calculated that the cheapest option for the government is illegal immigration.

I do like your optimism that Brexit is going to happen in the middle of a global *********. Surely the British government isn’t that insane....oh hold on...
 

mella

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I do like your optimism that Brexit is going to happen in the middle of a global *********. Surely the British government isn’t that insane....oh hold on...

Wwwweeeeelllll!!! Apparently there will be absolutely no extension to negotiations.

Had a discussion the other day about the gov choosing not to take part in the bulk buy scheme for PPE with EU and that the decision likely related to the negotiations... kinda sums up the mentality of our leaders if they've chosen an apparent show of "strength" over imminent loss of life. The EU scheme hasn't been a storming success by any means but the UK purchasing power looks pretty feable right now.

It sounds silly but I'm glad to see the evidence of what I've always thought to be true. British people won't do the jobs that many immigrants (European and otherwise) will do. No one is "taking" British jobs. Unfortunately many Brits think they are too good for the back breaking but poorly paid work that so many immigrants do. And that's not only farm and factory work, construction. It's also care homes, medical professions from the bottom up and much much more. When it's come to the crunch the British population has shown itself to be incapable of carrying the baton of these immigrants that some so badly want to see the back of.
 

VGThuy

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In my admin law class, I once had to read a long lawsuit regarding migrant workers suing for basic things like being able to use the restroom and having one that was in actual proximity to the fields they were working in. That was just the tip of the iceberg. Hearing the conditions in stark explicit detail was shocking, even when you grow up hearing about it in the periphery. Unless they do it, people really have no idea what life is like out there.
 

ballettmaus

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In my admin law class, I once had to read a long lawsuit regarding migrant workers suing for basic things like being able to use the restroom and having one that was in actual proximity to the fields they were working in.

That reminds me of the bathroom moment they showed in Hidden Figures. (Although, if I remember correctly, that detail had not happened like that but I have no doubt that that was what the bathroom situation was like for the majority of African Americans if not all at the time). It's mind boggling that that's what people have to fight for anywhere even today!
 

hanca

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It sounds silly but I'm glad to see the evidence of what I've always thought to be true. British people won't do the jobs that many immigrants (European and otherwise) will do. No one is "taking" British jobs. Unfortunately many Brits think they are too good for the back breaking but poorly paid work that so many immigrants do. And that's not only farm and factory work, construction. It's also care homes, medical professions from the bottom up and much much more. When it's come to the crunch the British population has shown itself to be incapable of carrying the baton of these immigrants that some so badly want to see the back of.
Is it just British people who won’t do the jobs that many immigrants will do? And is it the job that British workers are unwilling to do, or is it that the farmers prefer to pick workers who are cheaper? Would you be willing to work for, let’s say, £5 per hour? You wouldn’t, but the farmers may be able to get enough people from abroad who are willing to work for that price. On another thread I read that Germany imported tens of thousands of cheap Romanian workers for asparagus harvesting. I am pretty sure that Germany and the UK are not the only countries doing that. Just curious, why is it so wrong when British farmers choose to employ foreigners from poorer countries because they are cheaper and yes it is absolutely alright for Germany to do the same?
 

Vagabond

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Is it just British people who won’t do the jobs that many immigrants will do? And is it the job that British workers are unwilling to do, or is it that the farmers prefer to pick workers who are cheaper?
In rural areas of the U.K., the domestic labor pool isn't sufficient to support the needs of several industries, not just labor. A Scottish friend of mine remarked that she didn't know what retirement homes in the area where her mother live would do without foreign workers because there weren't people around to fill them.

People everywhere go looking for better-paying jobs. If you live in Bulgaria or the Philippines, you might find them in the Scottish countryside, but if you are from the Scottish countryside, Edinburgh, London, or Toronto might be a better bet.
 

Louis

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Just curious, why is it so wrong when British farmers choose to employ foreigners from poorer countries because they are cheaper and yes it is absolutely alright for Germany to do the same?

It's not wrong, but the UK government (so far) has been proven completely wrong that:
(1) British people will do these jobs
(2) 2500 seasonal farm worker visas will be sufficient

Upon leaving the EU, the British government's current policies will undoubtedly create a black market for illegal immigration. There will be no way to legally source people willing and able to do these jobs.
 
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