Brexit: The aftermath

Vagabond

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This story reminds me of when I flew back to the United States from Frankfurt in 2016. My airline meal had packaged food from several different E.U. countries, including ice cream from the U.K. I thought to myself that Brexit meant that there would not be any British ice cream on that flight in a few years' time. Oh, well! Maybe United is serving up gelato from Italy instead now.
 

antmanb

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This story reminds me of when I flew back to the United States from Frankfurt in 2016. My airline meal had packaged food from several different E.U. countries, including ice cream from the U.K. I thought to myself that Brexit meant that there would not be any British ice cream on that flight in a few years' time. Oh, well! Maybe United is serving up gelato from Italy instead now.
I would usually say that ice cream is not something I would particularly associate with the UK (like say Italian gelato), however, after spending a week in Wales last year - welsh ice cream is indeed :swoon:

But I still can't imagine anyone on the continent particularly seeking out ice cream from the UK when there are so many good (better?) options available within continental Europe.
 

Vagabond

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But I still can't imagine anyone on the continent particularly seeking out ice cream from the UK when there are so many good (better?) options available within continental Europe.
If they would have done so before, they won't now! :p

It could, of course, just as easily have been British cheese or biscuits or sausages that United was serving up. In addition to the British ice cream, there were packaged foods from about four other EU members, IIRC. I would be interested to know whether United used to serve meals with similarly diverse sources on its outbound flights from London, and if so, how they are managing with the effects of Brexit.
 

antmanb

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Apparently, the UK doesn't want our cancer-causing bacon! (Can't blame them.)


I do get it and i'm totally on board with making sure our meat is as safe as it has been under EU law, however, most of the bacon on our shelves at the moment contains nitrites...the article seemed to suggest that nitrites derived from vegetables was banned in the EU but says that "other nitrites" are not banned but it didn't expand on it.

Most bacon in our supermarkets now contain nitrites and you have to specifically look for nitrite free bacon.

This article from the Guardian explains how Proscuitto Di Parma has been produced without nitrites for decades but that most other processed meats from Chorizo and Salami right through to bacon all contain nitrites: https://www.theguardian.com/news/2018/mar/01/bacon-cancer-processed-meats-nitrates-nitrites-sausages

The last update to EU law on Nitrites was in 2013 so the fact that 2018 article talks about all the nitrites we use in the EU that can cause cancer makes me a little bit sceptical that our EU-allowed nitrates and nitrites are somehow less harmful/carcinogenic than the vegetable nitrites used the US.
 

antmanb

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If we’re talking a tangible benefit of Brexit I’d say the UK’s sourcing and rollout of C19 vaccines is a definite benefit. Initially not throwing in with EU at the end of last year made me very worried but I’m very happy to have been proved wrong.
 

taz'smum

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If we’re talking a tangible benefit of Brexit I’d say the UK’s sourcing and rollout of C19 vaccines is a definite benefit. Initially not throwing in with EU at the end of last year made me very worried but I’m very happy to have been proved wrong.

Yes, the UK has indeed been incredibly successful and should be applauded in its vaccine rollout!👏,

However the UK opted out of the EU vaccines scheme in July 2020 which was during the transition period when the UK was still an EU member.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-53361906

All EU countries could have opted out of the EU scheme the same as the UK and are free to make vaccine deals independently of the EU, as Hungary is currently doing with it's deal with Russia to supply its Sputnik V vaccine.

So whilst the Vaccine rollout is an incredible feat, it is not a tangible benefit of Brexit.

Though it has to be said that the EU has been really bad and slow in its procuring of vaccines.

So UK 1 : EU 0
 
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hanca

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All EU countries could have opted out of the EU scheme the same as the UK and are free to make vaccine deals independently of the EU, as Hungary is currently doing with it's deal with Russia to supply its Sputnik V vaccine.

So whilst the Vaccine rollout is an incredible feat, it is not a tangible benefit of Brexit.
I thought I read somewhere that the countries actually wanted to do it separately and it was UE insisting that they should do it all together? So in such case, it is actually attributed to Brexit, because otherwise the UK would probably do what all other countries did - toe the line and wait.
 

taz'smum

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I thought I read somewhere that the countries actually wanted to do it separately and it was UE insisting that they should do it all together? So in such case, it is actually attributed to Brexit, because otherwise the UK would probably do what all other countries did - toe the line and wait.

Ah, you are right about the EU insisting EU countries participate https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-c19-eu-vaccine-idUSKBN29D13Y

However they could still opt out as the UK did or order less it seems

"Countries are allowed to opt out of contracts or order less than they are entitled to based on their population size, he noted."

But like most things in health policy, Brussels doesn't have the authority to tell countries what to do"


https://www.politico.eu/article/european-commission-c19-vaccines-rollout-health-stella-kyriakides-eu/

So the UK's vaccination success doesn't appear to be in any way related to Brexit.
 
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hanca

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Yeah, I can see that it worked so well for all of them. I think you meant to say that it maes sense to be a part of a COMPETENT larger entity. Otherwise any advantage that is gained by having a greater bargaining power is lost by their incompetence and slowness...
 

allezfred

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Yeah, I can see that it worked so well for all of them. I think you meant to say that it maes sense to be a part of a COMPETENT larger entity. Otherwise any advantage that is gained by having a greater bargaining power is lost by their incompetence and slowness...
I am glad the UK is doing so well on the vaccination front considering it has had the most deaths of any country in Europe. :)

For those of us who remain in the EU, although the approach has been slower, without a joint strategy, smaller and poorer EU nations could have struggled to secure and pay for vaccines. With open borders, diverging national approaches could have led to chaos.
 

hanca

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I am glad the UK is doing so well on the vaccination front considering it has had the most deaths of any country in Europe. :)

For those of us who remain in the EU, although the approach has been slower, without a joint strategy, smaller and poorer EU nations could have struggled to secure and pay for vaccines. With open borders, diverging national approaches could have led to chaos.
The UK has most deaths of any country in Europe because of the size of the population in the UK. If you look at deaths per million of population, you may notice that Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia actually overtook the UK in the death rate. (And didn’t Russia actually admit that the number of dead is also much higher than their statistics show? I wouldn’t be surprised if the real deaths per million were also pretty close to the top in Europe, but we will never know the real numbers from this country, will we!)
 

acraven

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I believe an official organization in Russia admitted an undercount in excess of 100,000 *********-19 deaths quite some time ago. I thought would mean an adjustment in the fatality counts reported on the tracking websites. but it hasn't happened. Such a correction would change the fatality rate per million from 573 to about 1300.
 

taz'smum

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The UK has most deaths of any country in Europe because of the size of the population in the UK. If you look at deaths per million of population, you may notice that Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia actually overtook the UK in the death rate. (And didn’t Russia actually admit that the number of dead is also much higher than their statistics show? I wouldn’t be surprised if the real deaths per million were also pretty close to the top in Europe, but we will never know the real numbers from this country, will we!)
Germany has a much larger population. Try again.

And France (66.7 million) has a similar-sized population to the UK (68.1 million).
Yet France has had 84,613 deaths compared to the UK's 120,757 deaths.

*Population figures sources - French population 2021, UK population 2021
 

hanca

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So? What exactly does it prove that two countries you named (Germany and France) have managed to keep their numbers lower? I was responding to the statement that UK has the highest number of deaths in Europe. Yes, we do, but not when counted per million of population. If we count total cases, we should take into account the size of population in many European countries. Logically, bigger countries would have higher numbers of total deaths than smaller countries. That’s why, logically, the USA has the highest number of total cases in the world. (China and India have higher population, but I am not sure how honest they have been with their exact numbers. Plus China had much earlier warning about the pandemics than other countries, so they could act earlier!)

ETA: Italy has also similar size of population and have very comparable death rate to the UK (just in the spot after the UK). So well done, Germany and France, would you like us to pat your back? Bottom line is, some countries manage better, some worse. But I don’t think there is point to present the UK as a case of worst number, when that is a bit misleading! The reality if that there is not many countries with population of similar size, so suddenly you compare it just with a few countries. Like you did with Germany and France, but purposely overlooked Italy, because their numbers were not that convenient.

 
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taz'smum

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The UK has most deaths of any country in Europe because of the size of the population in the UK. If you look at deaths per million of population, you may notice that Belgium, Slovenia and Czechia actually overtook the UK in the death rate. (And didn’t Russia actually admit that the number of dead is also much higher than their statistics show? I wouldn’t be surprised if the real deaths per million were also pretty close to the top in Europe, but we will never know the real numbers from this country, will we!)

Whatever way you look at it, the UK ranking no. 6 in the world for deaths per million of population is a very grim outcome. :cry:
 

hanca

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Whatever way you look at it, the UK ranking no. 6 in the world for deaths per million of population is a very grim outcome. :cry:
Well, I am not saying that the situation is great. I think it was seriously underestimated when the rest of Europe was closing the boarders and getting into lockdown and yet the government here didn’t do anything for a few weeks. Maybe it was the herd immunity strategy, or maybe they simply didn’t have a clue what to do and ended up putting their heads in the sand, hoping the problem would go away. It didn’t go away. I do think the situation was not managed as well as it could have been in March 2020, and then again in October-December 2020, when they watched the climbing numbers and again didn’t do enough. Adding to it Christmas and New Years Eve and we are where we are. On the other hand, I am pretty impressed how well they have been doing with the vaccination and as a result our numbers are comparable to some other countries rather then being the worst in Europe as it was presented here by some posters! Ok, we are in the group of the worst ones in Europe, but no reason to pick up on the UK when let’s say Belgium (And Slovenia and Czechia) are doing even worse. And if the vaccine really works, I think soon we may see even more differences, considering the low number of people vaccinated in EU and the numbers vaccinated here.
 

allezfred

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For those truly interested to see how the EU's joint negotiating and purchasing of vaccines worked:


Nations will diverge because although the 27 negotiated as a block, governments chose to buy different amounts of vaccines during the negotiation rounds, and national preparation varies widely.

Each EU country was offered a quota of doses in proportion to their population size. But it wasn’t mandatory to take them, and some member states turned down doses, favouring the cheaper AstraZeneca over the more costly and less familiar Pfizer and Moderna vaccines. Countries such as Denmark and Germany then bought up doses that other countries turned down. Ireland took its full quota, buying enough jabs to vaccinate the population twice.

It’s early days, but initial figures suggest that small and highly-organised states have an advantage in doing a quick rollout. Many European countries are federal, and when powers are divided between national and regional authorities, such a task can be complex.
So each EU member has almost total autonomy in how much they wanted to purchase and how they rolled out their vaccination programmes. Imagine that? :shuffle:
 

taz'smum

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So each EU member has almost total autonomy in how much they wanted to purchase and how they rolled out their vaccination programmes. Imagine that? :shuffle:

Which is further proof that the UK could've done its highly successful vaccination program whilst still being a member of the EU.
So, it is clear that the UK's vaccination success is not a Brexit benefit.
 

hanca

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Honestly, expecting you to give credit to something that went a different way that you wanted, that would be too much to ask from you, wouldn’t it!
As I understand it from reading newspapers here, UK made their order dor the vaccine about 3months before EU, and therefore the process of making the vaccines was 3 months ahead. That’s why UK got ahead. The process of approval of the vaccine in the UK was also faster. So if UK was a part of EU, we would still wait for the vaccine because the order for them would be submitted together with EU, three months later. But I am sure you have some explanation for that.
 

allezfred

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So if UK was a part of EU, we would still wait for the vaccine because the order for them would be submitted together with EU, three months later. But I am sure you have some explanation for that.
Vaccinations in Ireland and other EU countries began in January. Why would the UK still be waiting if it were part of the EU and the vaccine rollout a national matter for each country? :confused:
 

taz'smum

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:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Honestly, expecting you to give credit to something that went a different way that you wanted, that would be too much to ask from you, wouldn’t it!
I think it has escaped your notice that I was the first to give credit where credit was due in this post #66!


A good future for my UK family, UK friends and my UK pension depends on a successful outcome.
So, I am constantly looking for tangible Brexit benefits and successes, as there is no going back - Brexit has to work!
 
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antmanb

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I'm still convinced that if not for Brexit we would not have been at such an advanced point in our vaccination roll out.

Johnson took the role of PM and made it clear he was going to stick two fingers up at Europe at every opportunity, particularly once we were in the transition period. He's totally shot himself in the foot with regards to: Track & Trace (rejecting the free use of a system in favour of awarding billions of pounds to his cronies who ultimately failed to produce a track and trace system), use of Galileo (again not strictly speaking an EU membership matter since you don't have to be an EU member to sign up to use of Galileo but I still put this down to Brexit because he chose not to sign up to it independently and it wouldn't have even been a question if it weren't for Brexit), information sharing between police/crime agencies. And that is just a few examples of many things that have been total clusterfcuk failures on this governments part as a result of Brexit.

I was genuinely convinced the vaccination roll out would fall into the same above category of complete incompetence and failure on the part of the government due to Brexit, and have had to dial back and say not only was it not a failure, but we're actually doing a lot better than we would have done had we done this as part of the EU.

I actually think this is an area where the EU has taken a hit by not having the UK at the table anymore. We were already in the transition period so the UK didn't have any say on the EU vaccines and rollout. Until we started messing around with discussions of Brexit, the UK had a very prominent position in the EU and was able to influence matters just as much as the other big countries in the EU and i wonder if being involved might have secured more vaccines more quickly for the EU had the UK been involved.
 

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