Bobrova and Soloviev out of Worlds

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
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Seems pretty unfair to make a drug illegal when it has been legal for a long time.

Athletes and federations are notified well in advance when a legal drug is going to be made illegal. They have lots of time to either stop taking the drug or to find an alternative if they need it for legitimate medical reasons.
 

Nmsis

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Yeah and considering what just happened to FIFA, I can't help but wonder why that is... :shuffle:
I know of a french book by Doctor Jean-Pierre de Mondenard (a leading voice in anti-doping) published a few years ago 'Doping in football : the law of silence'.
He talked about how the FIFA was not showing any will to actively fight against doping.
He also said there were doctors from sport feds who were telling the athletes when they would be controlled, undermining the fight against doping.
I don't think his book has ever been translated in another language, same as the Armstrong book published in 2004, L.A. Confidentiel : Lance Armstrong's secrets, by Pierre Ballester and David Walsh that was not translated for a very VERY long time.
 

WildRose

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http://www.aol.com/article/2016/03/07/sharapova-says-failed-drug-test-at-australian-open/21324104/?icid=maing-grid7|main5|dl5|sec1_lnk2&pLid=1150404857

Maria Sharapova has been taking the same drug for the past 10 years.

Sorry for the duplicate post.

Seems pretty unfair to make a drug illegal when it has been legal for a long time.
How about all the athletes who had to compete against her, who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs? Where is the sympathy for them?
 
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Tinami Amori

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How about all the athletes who had to compete against her, who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs? Where is the sympathy for them?
How about all the athletes who had to compete against these:

- John McEnroe said that he unknowingly took steroids for six years.

- Andre Agassi revealed that he tested positive for meth n 1997, but the governing body threw away the test after he said he had accidentally sipped his assistant Slim’s spiked soda.

- An ITF anti-doping tribunal ruled in 2009 that Richard Gasquet accidentally ingested cocaine while kissing a woman at a nightclub.

- Wayne Odesnik, a 27-year-old American tennis player, was caught importing HGH into Australia in 2010. While he didn’t test positive for the drug, Odesnik was suspended for two years. His punishment was cut in half because he gave “substantial assistance” to the ITF.
 

vesperholly

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How about all the athletes who had to compete against her, who weren't taking performance enhancing drugs? Where is the sympathy for them?
Sharapova said she took it for legitimate medical reasons - family history of diabetes and her irregular EKGs. I would argue that when an athlete is taking a drug for medical reasons, they are, in their "natural state", less than healthy than normal people, and the drug is just putting them back on an even playing field with "natural state" healthy athletes.
 

barbarafan

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Well, if the drug had performance enhancing qualities then the drug need not in the banned list for athletes to be banned, WADA has made it very clear in the past. Otherwise, athletes could be taking designer drugs, and athletes can't be backdated banned when the drug was not known, even though the drug has performance enhancing qualities, THG is one of the examples of WADA backdating the prohibitions.

It said on wikipedia link that it was announced in Sept 2015 that it would be banned come January 2016. That was the warning...at least 3 full months to knock it off before they could fail a test. Who is their coach?
 

Xela M

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Kafelnikov....his bluntness is legendary even by Russian standards.

I loved him SO much! Especially the way he treated the Russian press :D

Anyway, he's throwing serious shade at Sharapova and doubting her medical reasons
 

Xela M

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There's a video of a Russian news report on Bobrova/Soloviev:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO5Jh17C4n8&feature=youtu.be

Bobrova is saying the Federation had warned all athletes NUMEROUS times that this drug was banned and that they all discarded or gave back to the Russian team doctors everything containing this drug and that all athletes had been warned from childhood to be extra-vigilant about any medication they took and to consult the Russian team doctor on everything they were being prescribed. She refused to comment about the team doctor, but the report said she had been administered what she believed was a legal drug (they name the drug, but I'm not sure what it is in English) by the Russian team doctor before Euros. The reporters then interview an expert with 30 years experience in sports medicine and he demanded to know the name of the doctor who administered Bobrova the illegal drug
 

bronwynsings

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Bobrova is saying the Federation had warned all athletes NUMEROUS times that this drug was banned and that they all discarded or gave back to the Russian team doctors everything containing this drug and that all athletes had been warned from childhood to be extra-vigilant about any medication they took and to consult the Russian team doctor on everything they were being prescribed. She refused to comment about the team doctor, but the report said she had been administered what she believed was a legal drug (they name the drug, but I'm not sure what it is in English) by the Russian team doctor before Euros. The reporters then interview an expert with 30 years experience in sports medicine and he demanded to know the name of the doctor who administered Bobrova the illegal drug

Thank you for your translation! Wasn't the name of the doctor already revealed to be Philipp Shvedsky?
 

NorthernDancers

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Wow. Come home from work, and didn't expect this one. This whole thing is so wrong:

First and foremost, it's about Ekaterina's long-term health beyond skating. Taking a drug that is meant for heart and respiratory problems when you don't have that medical condition can only hurt your long-term health and leave you at risk for kidney and/or liver problems, never mind heart and stroke. Even if an athlete is not wise enough to know this is wrong, the supporting staff - coaches, doctors, federations, parents, etc - should NEVER allow or enable this behaviour in any way.

Second, to me it doesn't matter that it was not illegal until recently. If you don't have to take a medical drug for medical reasons, and you take it to make you have more endurance, faster recovery, and so on, there is nothing else to call it but doping. It's not the same as taking vitamins, eating healthy food, or using proper training techniques (ie. yoga, pilates, ballroom, contemporary, ballet, the gym, training at altitude, and so on).

Third, allowing a culture of technically legal but morally questionable doping does not create a level playing field. As much as I have enjoyed watching B/S over the years, I cannot ever appreciate their past successes without questioning how much of that success was due to their ability, and how much was due to performance enhancing drugs. And no, I don't believe that "everybody does it".
 

barbarafan

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I'm a bit confused, for this athlete, if the drug was taken while it was still legal according to WADA standards why would he be in any trouble?

Same for Bobrova, if was taken prior to Jan 1? Sad new no matter what but it seems shady.

It was announced in September 2015 that it would be banned Jan 1 2016 if found in your system Jan 1 2016. That means stop it in September...not take it in November.....They give you 4 months warning so you can stop in time to be clean by January...Where is the confusion?
 

Xela M

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Thank you for your translation! Wasn't the name of the doctor already revealed to be Philipp Shvedsky?

Actually, I've listened to it again and what he said was that he doesn't believe this medication should have been prescribed at all to a healthy athlete and wanted to know the name of the doctor who prescribed this drug to Bobrova [I think he means originally when she was taking it last year]
 

Xela M

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4,817
How about all the athletes who had to compete against these:

- John McEnroe said that he unknowingly took steroids for six years.

- Andre Agassi revealed that he tested positive for meth n 1997, but the governing body threw away the test after he said he had accidentally sipped his assistant Slim’s spiked soda.

- An ITF anti-doping tribunal ruled in 2009 that Richard Gasquet accidentally ingested cocaine while kissing a woman at a nightclub.

- Wayne Odesnik, a 27-year-old American tennis player, was caught importing HGH into Australia in 2010. While he didn’t test positive for the drug, Odesnik was suspended for two years. His punishment was cut in half because he gave “substantial assistance” to the ITF.

Love these :lol:
 

altai_rose

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3,290
Taking a drug that is meant for heart and respiratory problems when you don't have that medical condition can only hurt your long-term health and leave you at risk for kidney and/or liver problems, never mind heart and stroke. Even if an athlete is not wise enough to know this is wrong, the supporting staff - coaches, doctors, federations, parents, etc - should NEVER allow or enable this behaviour in any way.

Second, to me it doesn't matter that it was not illegal until recently. If you don't have to take a medical drug for medical reasons, and you take it to make you have more endurance, faster recovery, and so on, there is nothing else to call it but doping. It's not the same as taking vitamins, eating healthy food, or using proper training techniques (ie. yoga, pilates, ballroom, contemporary, ballet, the gym, training at altitude, and so on).
I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but why not? First, lots of drugs are prescribed for conditions other than the specific, written indications of the drug. What makes vitamins -- most of which in supplements are in chemical forms different from their natural, food-derived forms -- different from drugs? Vitamins also promote health, thereby leading to faster recovery, more strength, endurance, etc. Like drugs, the majority of people, including athletes, in Western society do not need to take vitamin supplements for medical reasons, as they can derive everything they need from their diet. In fact, vitamins also have the potential to hurt "long-term health," as over-supplementation can lead to neurological, kidney, liver, etc. problems.

If your argument is that 'vitamins are a natural substance and drugs are not,' then would you make an exception for those drugs that are derived from natural products (say, aspirin or digoxin)? And what about substances like Coenzyme Q10 -- not a "vitamin", per se, but might be considered "performance-enhancing" (or ineffective... but let's not get into that..); this is not banned by WADA, and as I know many of my guy friends use it for improving their energy at the gym (and I've heard doctors recommend patients to take it for other reasons), I wouldn't be surprised if athletes also took it for the supposed benefit of increasing energy.

My point is that I don't think it's so black and white.
 
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Ka3sha

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Thank you for your translation! Wasn't the name of the doctor already revealed to be Philipp Shvedsky?
Yes, it's Shvedsky, If I am not mistaken.
He is a doctor in Mozer's team and, AFAIK, according to some rumors, had some "experience" with dope before. Although, he is a professional doctor.
 

barbarafan

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I don't find it that unusual that someone didn't check her email. I am sure she gets thousands of messages everyday. It's like someone not opening the huge amount of mail (papers, envelopes) for days or weeks and miss something very important. Certainly the fault belongs to the person for not opening it, but it's not that unusual if you are getting a really high volume of the mail (paper or electronic).

My question is- did WADA use only emails to inform the athletes or did they send paper mail as well? Was it sent to only athletes but not to the coaches or fed? I am not saying they should have; I am just asking how they inform.

I would also like to know how this drug enhances performance in figure skating. I am not an athlete, so this could be a dumb question. In different sports different muscles are used, so what may enhance performance in e.g. tennis or swimming may not impact figure skating or the martial arts (just using as an example) the same way.

Wikipedia said it increased endurance and muscle recovery...so you can train for longer with shorter breaks.. harder work improves performance...This would appear to be a much improved substance than what the East Germans used as those drugs increased the muscle mass so would be detrimental to a figure skater..
 

doubleturn

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They keep the updated list on their website:
http://list.wada-ama.org/

They also keep a separate "major changes" summary, so you can easily see what has changed from year to year:
http://www.usada.org/substances/prohibited-list/major-changes-2016-prohibited-list/

They offer a searchable database, etc. Also on mobile.

The list is updated annually.

I'm not sure if further efforts are made, such as emails to athletes or etc.

For iPhone/iPad users, there is a WADA app that lists the banned/monitored substances. It gets updated regularly, and the app was updated with the 2016 list on 4 January 2016.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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I don't think it's suspicious that a bunch of athletes tested positive in the new year. I assume a lot of them were taking it in the Fall when it was legal and misjudged how long it would take to get out of their system.
 

Willin

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@MacMadame Maria Sharapova said she had no idea that the rule change was happening. I would imagine the athletes themselves couldn't have all known. In Bobrova's case at least it sounds like she was in the loop, but I wonder how common this was. Maybe the Russian Skating Federation was on their stuff, but their Tennis authority and some others weren't? The track and field competitors I'd bet were almost entirely clean - they have to be under a microscope, and any further misstep would ruin their careers further.

I'm playing a bit of devil's advocate here, but why not? First, lots of drugs are prescribed for conditions other than the specific, written indications of the drug. What makes vitamins -- most of which in supplements are in chemical forms different from their natural, food-derived forms -- different from drugs? Vitamins also promote health, thereby leading to faster recovery, more strength, endurance, etc. Like drugs, the majority of people, including athletes, in Western society do not need to take vitamin supplements for medical reasons, as they can derive everything they need from their diet. In fact, vitamins also have the potential to hurt "long-term health," as over-supplementation can lead to neurological, kidney, liver, etc. problems.

If your argument is that 'vitamins are a natural substance and drugs are not,' then would you make an exception for those drugs that are derived from natural products (say, aspirin or digoxin)? And what about substances like Coenzyme Q10 -- not a "vitamin", per se, but might be considered "performance-enhancing" (or ineffective... but let's not get into that..); this is not banned by WADA, and as I know many of my guy friends use it for improving their energy at the gym (and I've heard doctors recommend patients to take it for other reasons), I wouldn't be surprised if athletes also took it for the supposed benefit of increasing energy.

My point is that I don't think it's so black and white.

@Yazmeen Should be able to answer this better than me, but I can provide some insight based on my knowledge of human biology and extremely limited knowledge of medical ethics.

-Drugs are prescribed for conditions other than the written indications of the drug, but even then they are only prescribed because there's good evidence that the drug a) works to treat the condition and b) will not harm the patient more than any similar drug or the untreated condition
-Vitamins are different than drugs because you can get them naturally. Drugs are for the most part specifically formulated and dosed out, and therefore cannot be found in food. Now, over-the-counter vitamins are unregulated for the most part, but they do not cause any harm unless you take far too many.
-Most vitamins are hard to get too much of on a regular basis unless you're trying or have already unhealthy dietary patterns. Drugs usually have some adverse side effects, even if taken by otherwise healthy people. Sometimes the effects of the drugs will cause problems for people without the condition the drug was made for. (I.e. giving a beta blocker to someone with normal blood pressure may lead to low blood pressure in that patient.) Presumably, it can have long-term impacts as well if taken for a long period of time.
-Just because something isn't banned by WADA now doesn't mean it won't be. Perhaps your specific example isn't even on WADA's radar. If it is, perhaps WADA prefers to judge the impact a drug is having before banning it. There's not much of a point to banning drugs no athletes are currently using, or that only a few competitors who never finish near a podium use. Sure, it improves performance, but the impact on results the press care about is negligible.

There's also the issue of medical necessity and ethics. I can't say this for all countries, but those who prescribe medicines in the US are supposed to use their best judgement in giving medication out. This means that you should only give a drug to someone if it is medically necessary and will not harm more than help to the patient. Certainly giving a healthy patient a PED causes more harm than health to them, so most profs I have consider it unethical to do so.

I think this is terrible either way. If Bobrova was knowingly cheating, it's terrible; if a doctor betrayed her trust and injected her with a banned substance, it's terrible. I'll reserve judgement on the individuals involved until more details come out.
 

Rock2

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I actually agree with this :D Russia is way behind in the PEDs they're using. China and the US are infinitely more advanced

Could be quite true. But I try my best to presume innocence until proven guilty. Based on drug test results with Russian athletes from London and more recently the track team, it's not looking good for athletics in that country in general.

As for skating specifically, I'm trying to think of examples of major violations that didn't involve Russian federation. We have SLC, footsie-gate @ 99 worlds, Bobrova and Berezhnaya's pseudoephedrine. I'll leave out Sochi ladies result, because the panel composition and explosion in PCS for Sotnikova will just be classified as suspect and not outright cheating or a violation.

I'm sure there are others. What am I missing...?
 

zebraswan

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Could be quite true. But I try my best to presume innocence until proven guilty. Based on drug test results with Russian athletes from London and more recently the track team, it's not looking good for athletics in that country in general.

As for skating specifically, I'm trying to think of examples of major violations that didn't involve Russian federation. We have SLC, footsie-gate @ 99 worlds, Bobrova and Berezhnaya's pseudoephedrine. I'll leave out Sochi ladies result, because the panel composition and explosion in PCS for Sotnikova will just be classified as suspect and not outright cheating or a violation.

I'm sure there are others. What am I missing...?

Tonya Harding?
 

Vash01

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Because their whole track and field federation is suspended? And because the shenanigans with the drug testing labs in Moscow were widely covered?

Look, I take the entire game of baseball with cynicism since the late 90s. Those great American heroes were doped to the eyeballs and the voters in the Hall of Fame agree. If Russia is under the gun again there is good reason for it and I'm not naive enough to believe that ice dancers are naturally more pure hearted than runners or cyclists or baseball players.


Where did I say that Ice dancers are pure hearted? I was laughing at people that didn't think ice dancers were athletes. HUUUUGE difference. Don't put words in my mouth.
 

Vash01

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Could be quite true. But I try my best to presume innocence until proven guilty. Based on drug test results with Russian athletes from London and more recently the track team, it's not looking good for athletics in that country in general.

As for skating specifically, I'm trying to think of examples of major violations that didn't involve Russian federation. We have SLC, footsie-gate @ 99 worlds, Bobrova and Berezhnaya's pseudoephedrine. I'll leave out Sochi ladies result, because the panel composition and explosion in PCS for Sotnikova will just be classified as suspect and not outright cheating or a violation.

I'm sure there are others. What am I missing...?


Since in your mind, Russian athletes win only by cheating, that's all you will notice and never even see other countries that may be guilty. You shouldn't even leave out Sochi ladies results. They will fit right into your narrow thinking.

From my perspective, Sarah Hughes' win in 2002 SLC could be considered cheating, if we were using the kind of 'logic' you are using. Of course you will only see the Sochi result and not the SLC result.
 

Vash01

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Dang. Absolutely right. My bad.

I guess I still don't quite think of it as being a Olympic gold medalist. Though I should. :slinkaway

We are not used to seeing a team event in FS, that's all. In gymnastics nobody questions a team gold. It receives the same respect as any other Olympic gold. It is sad to see FS fans not respecting their own sport. I don't remember the name of the US gymnast who was highly publicized as a potential all around gold in gymnastics but didn't win anything but the team gold. She is still an Olympic gold medallist.
 

Katha

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This drug only has a half life of 6 hours, so it takes less than a day to get out of your system.
Which, if it comes to a trial, will be used as evidence against her "I would never take it willingly, I'm not that stupid" defense. A counter argument will be mounted that she probably just thought it would pass quickly through her system and become undetectable.
 

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