Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Christian incidents, reports, etc.

Debbie S

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You don't have to go very far to find that Omar is working on issues her constituents care immediately about, agree with her particular proposal proposals on them or not. I got this from the Trump thread: She went back to Minnesota and held a town hall on health care.
Then why not propose a resolution or legislation on health care? I'm sure she and her staff are managing the routine constituent complaints and she's meeting with constituents. But now that she's in the spotlight and has some capital to use (which is rare for most Congressional freshmen), she chooses to use it to advance her anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic agenda.
 

PRlady

Gutting it out
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32,286
Then why not propose a resolution or legislation on health care? I'm sure she and her staff are managing the routine constituent complaints and she's meeting with constituents. But now that she's in the spotlight and has some capital to use (which is rare for most Congressional freshmen), she chooses to use it to advance her anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic agenda.
She is anti-Zionist. I’ve yet to see evidence she’s antisemitic. And since BDS is the only boycott movement singled out for repression of free speech, I’m glad she’s brave enough to take it on.

The current anti-BDS bill in markup -she IS responding to something going on, this is not a vacuum - is weaker than the original bill but still sends the signal that BDS is the only protest movement not allowed to operate in the US. Not Nazis, white supremacists or anti-immigrant vigilantes. Just proponents of BDS.
 

VGThuy

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It's not like she just drafted that bill after Trump put her into the spotlight this week. This bill was being worked on for a while as a response to the Senate bill Rubio pushed in January. Also, again, she did not sponsor this bill alone but she's being made the focus for nefarious reasons.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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Then why not propose a resolution or legislation on health care? I'm sure she and her staff are managing the routine constituent complaints and she's meeting with constituents. But now that she's in the spotlight and has some capital to use (which is rare for most Congressional freshmen), she chooses to use it to advance her anti-Zionist and anti-Semitic agenda.
She is not anti-semitic. She supports BDS. I think she is wrong. But Congresspeople do multiple things. Why would she not do this as well if she thinks it is important? Many members of Congress put forward legislation that I disagree with. That's democracy.

I oppose BDS but I also oppose the attempts to prevent boycotts. It is a legitimate tactic which does not mean one has to agree with every use of boycott.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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This IS about antisemitism. Michelle Goldberg, columnist for the NYT, notes how Trump people use what she calls a smarmy philosemitism to protect their racist advocacy: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/19/opinion/trump-ilhan-omar.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
May I quote some of this for those who don't have access?

Sebastian Gorka, a onetime adviser to Donald Trump, wore a medal from the Vitezi Rend, a Hungarian group historically aligned with Nazism, to one of Trump’s inaugural balls. Gorka was reportedly a member of the group, whose founder, the Hungarian autocrat Miklos Horthy, once said, “For all my life, I have been an anti-Semite.”

Max Berger is a Jewish social justice activist who has long been deeply involved in Jewish communal life. He’s the co-founder of IfNotNow, a group of American Jews devoted to ending Israel’s occupation of Palestinian territory, and recently joined Elizabeth Warren’s presidential campaign.

In a tweet this month, one of these men tarred the other as an anti-Semite. If you’ve been following the increasingly bizarre turn that American discussion of anti-Semitism has taken, you can probably guess which one.

That’s right, it was Gorka who called Berger an anti-Semite, for having once joined in an internet in-joke about a nonexistent group called “Friends of Hamas.” (Gorka’s tweet appears to have since been deleted.) It wasn’t the only time this month that Gorka accused a Jew of Jew-hating; he’s also charged the anti-Trump conservative writer Anne Applebaum with “standing with the anti-Semites,” demanding that she explain “how you justify this to the community.”
Guys, Anne Applebaum is being called an anti-semite. Everyone is an anti-semite these days. The word is being turned into a meaningless political epithet that everyone uses instead of saying "I disgree with that person's views."

I hope people will re-think where they are on this. Let's argue BDS, let's argue why there needs to be a two state solution, or why Israel can't agree to that, or why there needs to be one state, but without treating each other as the enemy.
 

Zemgirl

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11,331
You don't have to go very far to find that Omar is working on issues her constituents care immediately about, agree with her particular proposal proposals on them or not. I got this from the Trump thread: She went back to Minnesota and held a town hall on health care.

The media may focus on one controversial aspect of an elected official, that does not mean they are only doing that or even prioritizing that. They do many things. Criticize Omar for sponsoring the resolution, sure, but I don't think it is accurate that she is not dealing with the issues of importance to her district.
Given the amount of attention on Omar at the moment, I don't think this was the best time to introduce a boycott rights resolution that plays directly into the Republican narrative about her and Tlaib. Haven't multiple courts already ruled that all this anti-BDS stuff is unconstitutional on first amendment grounds? Could this not have waited a few weeks? It's not something that's high on her constituents' list of pressing issues, I would imagine.

Honestly, people should be able to boycott whatever they want (in Israel too, where some of us boycott goods from the occupied territories). But this can be a double-edged sword, and I hope that the legislation is very carefully worded.
 

jeffisjeff

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Given the amount of attention on Omar at the moment, I don't think this was the best time to introduce a boycott rights resolution that plays directly into the Republican narrative about her and Tlaib.
Quoting VGThuy from above, because unfortunately it seems necessary to explain that things don't happen overnight. :rolleyes:

It's not like she just drafted that bill after Trump put her into the spotlight this week. This bill was being worked on for a while as a response to the Senate bill Rubio pushed in January. Also, again, she did not sponsor this bill alone but she's being made the focus for nefarious reasons.
 

Zemgirl

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11,331
Um, yes? My point was that it was clear that the anti-boycott bill would distract from the other work she's doing, especially at this time.
 

jeffisjeff

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Um, yes? My point was that it was clear that the anti-boycott bill would distract from the other work she's doing, especially at this time.
I think my point (actually, VGThuy's point, which I am simply repeating) is very clear. But how nice of you to be so concerned about her other work!
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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Given the amount of attention on Omar at the moment, I don't think this was the best time to introduce a boycott rights resolution that plays directly into the Republican narrative about her and Tlaib. Haven't multiple courts already ruled that all this anti-BDS stuff is unconstitutional on first amendment grounds? Could this not have waited a few weeks? It's not something that's high on her constituents' list of pressing issues, I would imagine.

Honestly, people should be able to boycott whatever they want (in Israel too, where some of us boycott goods from the occupied territories). But this can be a double-edged sword, and I hope that the legislation is very carefully worded.
It doesn't matter what she says and when she says it. She is being monitored 24/7 and her every word distorted and then the distortions trumpeted across traditional and social media.

Until that changes its going to look like she's failing to be strategic and careful no matter what she does.

I for one don't follow Omar's every word and action. Or that of any Congressperson. This obsessing that is currently going on is putting representatives in an impossible position.

Let's argue policy.
 

Zemgirl

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11,331
It doesn't matter what she says and when she says it. She is being monitored 24/7 and her every word distorted and then the distortions trumpeted across traditional and social media.

Until that changes its going to look like she's failing to be strategic and careful no matter what she does.
That is true, and there's only so much she can do about the Republican narrative. But this bill is not going anywhere, and I don't see how it's helpful to try to advance it at this time.

This is not a policy thread, and I don't think we'd have much to argue about if it were ;)

Has the BBC Panorama program about antisemitism in the UK Labour party been discussed here yet? There's been a lot going on in the aftermath of that.

 

PRlady

Gutting it out
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32,286
So. The very first bill introduced in this Congress was a bill that would have given states legal cover to refuse to do business with individuals and groups that support BDS. It was clear that was going to fail a court challenge and most Dems were nervous about it, it was pretty much drafted by AIPAC.

So a second bill was drafted that still says BDS is illegitimate but is somewhat more evenhanded and doesn't allow for punitive measures against BDS proponents. Many progressives object to that bill too because it singles out one movement for nasty description, but it's likely to pass. That's what Omar is responding to.

However, cynic that I am, I know that she and Tlaib are trying to go to Israel/Palestine on a counter-AIPAC trip. It's up to the PM whether to let them in since there is now an Israeli law allowing them to ban BDSers from entry. The optics for Bibi in the upcoming election if he bars them are good given where the Israeli public is, but it sure looks lousy keeping out US lawmakers of color to the rest of the world, or at least a lot of the rest of the world.

It may be that Omar is pushing this now to make Bibi's decision as hard as possible, which makes for good politics from her point of view.
 

Zemgirl

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It may be that Omar is pushing this now to make Bibi's decision as hard as possible, which makes for good politics from her point of view.
I don't consider anything that can help Bibi cater to his base good politics, but then I'm on the Israeli side and not in the US.

ETA: just saw this on Twitter.
 

BlueRidge

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That is true, and there's only so much she can do about the Republican narrative. But this bill is not going anywhere, and I don't see how it's helpful to try to advance it at this time.

This is not a policy thread, and I don't think we'd have much to argue about if it were
I was trying to make the point in my post that much of the naming of anti-semitism is about policy disagreements and people are using the term "anti-semitism" instead of saying "I disagree with you on that policy" (BDS, two-state solution, etc.). That's what I meant when I said "Let's discuss policy."
 

Zemgirl

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I was trying to make the point in my post that much of the naming of anti-semitism is about policy disagreements and people are using the term "anti-semitism" instead of saying "I disagree with you on that policy" (BDS, two-state solution, etc.). That's what I meant when I said "Let's discuss policy."
Fair enough. Omar has used some antisemitic tropes in the past - but that is a separate discussion from policy issues, and one that we don't need to have again ;)
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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just a by-the-way here is what Rashida Tlaib is working on:

My home state and #13thDistrictStrong pay the highest auto insurance rates in the nation. That's why I'm pleased to be working with Bonnie Watson Coleman to push back on the auto insurance industry's discriminatory practice of using non-driving factors to set their rates with our #PAIDAct.
You could get the impression from media that she's a crazed hater who is in Congress to destroy Israel. That's really not the case, and you need to look farther before condemning her.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Brezina's Nemesis
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This is a study performed by EU with some antisemitism statistics in Europe. There's quite a lot of data, but the most interesting number IMHO is that the Jewish correspondents of the study reported the anti-Semitic attacks coming from the policial left as twice more common than from the political right (21% vs 14%). And unsurprisingly, the most common source of anti-Semitic attacks are "extremist Muslims".

Just something I thought I'd share :smokin:
Because while I don't think anyone sane would identify me as a right wing extremist, it does seems that the left is the bigger offender than right on this issue. At least in Europe.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Brezina's Nemesis
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You could get the impression from media that she's a crazed hater who is in Congress to destroy Israel. That's really not the case, and you need to look farther before condemning her.
To be fair, I don't see any contradiction. It's very much possible to be a crazed hater who is in the Congress to destroy Israel, while doing other things too. I don't think any politician anywhere (outside Israel) is elected due to his/her anti-Israeli views, but it doesn't prevent them from promoting this idea in their free time from other positive important deeds. I also believe that any non-Israeli would happily excuse a politician for the extreme views on the Israeli matter if that politician's policies elsewhere are to his/her likings. Which is perfectly understandable. I also don't elect my representatives based on their view on, oh, let's say Tibet.

So while I know next to nothing about the aforementioned congresswomen and thus have very little factual ground for any opinion, just as a general fact of life, I wouldn't be surprised the tiniest bit if they turned out to be crazed haters once it comes to this particular issue, and that people who are aligned with them politically in general would easily dismiss or excuse that "extremism" due to its insignificance compared to other issues and policies.
 

BlueRidge

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To be fair, I don't see any contradiction. It's very much possible to be a crazed hater who is in the Congress to destroy Israel, while doing other things too. I don't think any politician anywhere (outside Israel) is elected due to his/her anti-Israeli views, but it doesn't prevent them from promoting this idea in their free time from other positive important deeds. I also believe that any non-Israeli would happily excuse a politician for the extreme views on the Israeli matter if that politician's policies elsewhere are to his/her likings. Which is perfectly understandable. I also don't elect my representatives based on their view on, oh, let's say Tibet.

So while I know next to nothing about the aforementioned congresswomen and thus have very little factual ground for any opinion, just as a general fact of life, I wouldn't be surprised the tiniest bit if they turned out to be crazed haters once it comes to this particular issue, and that people who are aligned with them politically in general would easily dismiss or excuse that "extremism" due to its insignificance compared to other issues and policies.
Not sure what your point is but Tlaib is not crazed or a hater, and that was my point: the media may give that impression but it is false.
 

PRlady

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This is a study performed by EU with some antisemitism statistics in Europe. There's quite a lot of data, but the most interesting number IMHO is that the Jewish correspondents of the study reported the anti-Semitic attacks coming from the policial left as twice more common than from the political right (21% vs 14%). And unsurprisingly, the most common source of anti-Semitic attacks are "extremist Muslims".

Just something I thought I'd share
Because while I don't think anyone sane would identify me as a right wing extremist, it does seems that the left is the bigger offender than right on this issue. At least in Europe.
I quite agree that in Europe so far the problem is on the left, from the Corbynistas in the UK busy destroying Labour to the outright danger in France and parts of Sweden. The nationalist right has decided to be pro-Israel to join forces against Muslims, so the spectacle of Bibi cozying up to Poland and Hungary despite the overt antisemitism from the governments there.

But in the US the Muslim community is not nearly so radical and frequently works with the Jewish community on the danger from the alt-right. The only place the far left is more threatening than the right is on some college campuses, and even there there has been no violence, just lots of drama and yelling from both sides.
 

Debbie S

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11,090
She is anti-Zionist. I’ve yet to see evidence she’s antisemitic.
We've all already discussed her tweets/comments in this thread, no need to rehash, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But IMO, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism go hand in hand. Especially when you actually listen to the BDS rhetoric at college campuses and elsewhere (ex: Corbynites). As you know, it's possible to be both pro-Jew and pro-Palestinian - i.e. two-state solution. If those who philosophically oppose a Palestinian state are considered to be hateful toward Palestinians, I don't see why those who oppose a Jewish state wouldn't be considered hateful toward Jews.

The only place the far left is more threatening than the right is on some college campuses, and even there there has been no violence,
I guess that depends on how you define violence. Defacing doors and such with anti-Zionist language is destruction of property. And if you look on YouTube, there are are many vids (taken with cell phone cameras) of BDS activists physically pushing their way into student gatherings and getting in the faces of Jewish students and threatening them with physical violence if they don't "go away." And tearing up counter-protest signs and such (the First Amendment apparently only applies to the BDS activists).

And those students are going to graduate in the near future and enter the real world, so I think we do need to be concerned and not dismiss the campus incidents as 'just a bunch of college kids'.
 

PRlady

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We've all already discussed her tweets/comments in this thread, no need to rehash, we'll just have to agree to disagree. But IMO, anti-Zionism and anti-Semitism go hand in hand. Especially when you actually listen to the BDS rhetoric at college campuses and elsewhere (ex: Corbynites). As you know, it's possible to be both pro-Jew and pro-Palestinian - i.e. two-state solution. If those who philosophically oppose a Palestinian state are considered to be hateful toward Palestinians, I don't see why those who oppose a Jewish state wouldn't be considered hateful toward Jews.

I guess that depends on how you define violence. Defacing doors and such with anti-Zionist language is destruction of property. And if you look on YouTube, there are are many vids (taken with cell phone cameras) of BDS activists physically pushing their way into student gatherings and getting in the faces of Jewish students and threatening them with physical violence if they don't "go away." And tearing up counter-protest signs and such (the First Amendment apparently only applies to the BDS activists).

And those students are going to graduate in the near future and enter the real world, so I think we do need to be concerned and not dismiss the campus incidents as 'just a bunch of college kids'.
They are a minority even among Palestinian sympathizers but I don’t minimize their behavior. But as you also know, there are wellfunded efforts to sue campuses that invite pro-Palestinian speakers, Canary Mission listing Palestinian activists so they’ll be blacklisted from employment, and SLAPP suits against BDS proponents to intimidate them.

This really is a case of both sides. And the college faculty, now that I work for/with a subset of them, often finds the debate ugly in every way.
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
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If those who philosophically oppose a Palestinian state are considered to be hateful toward Palestinians, I don't see why those who oppose a Jewish state wouldn't be considered hateful toward Jews.
Is it not theoretically possible for a Palestinian to practice Judaism? You're conflating two different things, ethnicity and religion. I philosophically oppose either as a ground for nationhood, and submit that the only moral stance any country should take is E Pluribus Unum : From Many, One. That whatever the ethnic makeup of the citizens, a country should grant and respect the liberty of all, and not make exceptions for any one group. In the wake of WWII with the Holocaust on everyone's minds, the creation of a Jewish Homeland was understandable, but still a mistake; it should have been created with the (using the word in it's classic sense) liberal constitution Israel has, but for a nation open to all refugees irrespective of religion. And, it must be said, the surrounding nations in the Mideast - and all across the world - should liberalize as well.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Brezina's Nemesis
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Jews are a nation and a religion rather than just a religion. They tend to come together but don't have to. I for one have cultural and historic ties to the Jewish identity, while being red hot raging atheist. Israel is defined as the "Jewish national home" rather than "Jewish religious home".

A Palestinian can be Jewish by religion, and an ethnical Jew can be a Christian or a Muslim (and from the past experience, when pogroms come they would definitely qualify as Jews). Both would be entitled to Israeli citizenship by the law of return if they manage to prove it.
 

Zemgirl

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Is it not theoretically possible for a Palestinian to practice Judaism? You're conflating two different things, ethnicity and religion.
No, you're mistaken in trying to separate these two things. As Andrey pointed out, Judaism is not just a religious identity. This confuses a lot of people who think of religion, culture and nationality as separate things.

Palestinians are not tied to a specific religion. While most are Muslim, there is also a sizable Christian population, which is further divided into different denominations. I don't personally know any people who considers themselves Palestinian Jews, but it is theoretically possible to be one.

In the wake of WWII with the Holocaust on everyone's minds, the creation of a Jewish Homeland was understandable, but still a mistake; it should have been created with the (using the word in it's classic sense) liberal constitution Israel has, but for a nation open to all refugees irrespective of religion.
That would have gone so well for us Jews. As I pointed out earlier in this thread:

History has shown us that Jews can all too easily be made stateless by the countries where they live. As our Proclamation of Independence states, it is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
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Heard this report on the radio, but know nothing about this film and the controversy:

Documentary Screening Sparks Controversy in Takoma Park

The documentary claims the Israeli government, the U.S. government and a pro-Israel lobby have joined to “shape American media coverage of the conflict in Israel’s favor,” calling it an “effective public relations war” that has been waged in the U.S. for decades.

...Another person who objected to the screening is Maryland Comptroller Peter Franchot, who said in a Facebook post that he is fine with freedom of speech and political expression but he is opposed to local tax dollars being used to “peddle some bigoted dog whistles that have been used to rationalize hatred, discrimination and violence against the Jewish people for generations.”

...During the discussion, panelist Matthew Mayers said his group J Street is pro-Israel and also pro-peace. He said he believes in a two-state solution. ...Mayers said he believes the film is “obviously an advocacy piece,” but he does not think it is anti-Semitic. "
 

PRlady

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Heard this report on the radio, but know nothing about this film and the controversy:

Documentary Screening Sparks Controversy in Takoma Park
I know a lot about it because my husband’s regional co-chair was a speaker. The film is very anti-Israel and claims US media tell a lopsided story. Meanwhile the Israelis think US MSM is biased in favor of the Palestinians.

It was a very leftist audience but what would you expect in the People’s Republic of Takoma Park.
 

BlueRidge

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I know a lot about it because my husband’s regional co-chair was a speaker. The film is very anti-Israel and claims US media tell a lopsided story. Meanwhile the Israelis think US MSM is biased in favor of the Palestinians.

It was a very leftist audience but what would you expect in the People’s Republic of Takoma Park.
Is it anti-semitic? The article noted that critics think it is saying the "Jews control the media."
 

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