Anti-Semitism, anti-Zionism and anti-Christian incidents, reports, etc.

Prancer

Your Overlord
Staff member
Messages
48,307
The definition is not settled for me. I categorically reject AOC’s.
And apparently that of actual experts on the subject.

Whose definition do you accept?

And to answer your question: people can discuss whatever they want. And I can question their motives as to why they were silent on the same issue before.
That was not my question.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
And apparently that of actual experts on the subject.

Whose definition do you accept?
I gave the definition earlier in the thread. And please don’t make it sound like there’s uniform agreement with AOC out there in the Jewish community. The Holocaust Museum, for instance, disagrees. One might consider them experts.


That was not my question.
then try being more clear?
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
29,122
But we are talking about a specific method of genocide when a group is targeted FOR SYSTEMATIC, WELL-ORGANIZED EXTERMINATION. And then is in fact tortured and exterminated
Such as when the Tutsi and moderate Hutu in Rwanda were targeted and exterminated during the Rwanda Civil War.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
Such as when the Tutsi and moderate Hutu in Rwanda were targeted and exterminated during the Rwanda Civil War.
Sure. If they were held in camps while that was happening, then yes, they can be called that.

And it would be extremely disrespectful to the memory of the victims of that genocide if their horrific, mass deaths were compared to the lives at detention centers along the border
 

Prancer

Your Overlord
Staff member
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48,307
I gave the definition earlier in the thread.
Ah. Well, I guess it never occurred to me that you speak with any authority on this subject.

And please don’t make it sound like there’s uniform agreement with AOC out there in the Jewish community.
I didn't mention the Jewish community at all, so I don't know what that is supposed to mean.

then try being more clear?
Not sure what wasn't clear, but I asked you if you, as a standard for human behavior, think that people shouldn't speak out on an issue if they haven't spoken out on that issue in the past? Can they, for example, see things getting demonstrably worse and decide that they can't bear it any longer?
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
Messages
3,684
Children please! Rather than get bogged down in a never ending squabble of "My team's nefariousness is still better than your team's", what are anyone's solutions? There has got to be a better way of extraditing these people in detention so that it doesn't resemble a holding cell in any way, shape or form. More like a waiting room for people's applications to get processed. Which may take long, and may not end up in their favor. That's life, how can one make it better?
 

Prancer

Your Overlord
Staff member
Messages
48,307
Children please! Rather than get bogged down in a never ending squabble of "My team's nefariousness is still better than your team's", what are anyone's solutions? There has got to be a better way of extraditing these people in detention so that it doesn't resemble a holding cell in any way, shape or form. More like a waiting room for people's applications to get processed. Which may take long, and may not end up in their favor. That's life, how can one make it better?
You tell us.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
Ah. Well, I guess it never occurred to me that you speak with any authority on this subject.
Lots of obvious things don’t occur to you, I suppose. I lost family members. I have heard direct accounts. I walked the land soaked in the blood of my people and have grown up surrounded with these images of piles of emaciated corpses. Piles of children’s shoes and empty canisters of Zyklon gas. Babyi Yar. Lets say my knowledge of the matter is more direct than yours.


Not sure what wasn't clear, but I asked you if you, as a standard for human behavior, think that people shouldn't speak out on an issue if they haven't spoken out on that issue in the past? Can they, for example, see things gettig demonstrably worse and decide that they can't bear it any longer?
who are you talking about here? Who are these people that observed what Obama did and weren’t triggered? I believe I have already given my opinion on what people should speak out on. Anything.
 

Prancer

Your Overlord
Staff member
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48,307
Lots of obvious things don’t occur to you, I suppose. I lost family members. I have heard direct accounts. I walked the land soaked in the blood of my people and have grown up surrounded with these images of piles of emaciated corpses. Lets say my knowledge of the matter is more direct than yours.
I wouldn't dream of disputing you on experience. But that does not mean that your definition holds authority.

who are you talking about here? Who are these people that observed what Obama did and weren’t triggered?
I am not talking about any particular people. I am talking about a principle of human behavior.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
@Jot the Dot Dot of course it’s horrendous. I have no suggestions at all, unfortunately. Where to get more space? Personnel? I am sure there’s a thread where people who understand the situation better than I do can discuss possible solutions. And maybe even doing something about it instead of beating their chest on some figure skating forum. In fact, there have to be practical ways to help a family
 
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IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
I wouldn't dream of disputing you on experience. But that does not mean that your definition holds authority.
but AOC’s does? And the Holocaust museum’s staff does not?


I am not talking about any particular people. I am talking about a principle of Hyman behavior.
fine. If that’s the case, I have already answered this question.
 

Prancer

Your Overlord
Staff member
Messages
48,307
but AOC’s does? And the Holocaust museum’s staff does not?
AOC is irrelevant, other than she made a statement and had experts on the subject of concentration camps who supported her statement by agreeing with her definition.

I guess expertise is in the eye of the beholder.

fine. If that’s the case, I have already answered this question.
Must have missed it, but no longer care.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
AOC is irrelevant, other than she made a statement and had experts on the subject of concentration camps who supported her statement by agreeing with her definition.

I guess expertise is in the eye of the Beholder.
again with the implication of uniformity of opinion of the experts. I suppose the Holocaust museum is chopped liver. AOC was invited to Poland by an MP so she could visit the real concentration camps and correct her ignorance. https://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/AOC-invited-by-Polish-parliamentarian-to-see-concentration-camps-593175/amp

In that link Yad Vashem is also quoted with an opinion on AOC’s definition. Are they expert enough for you?


Must have missed it, but no longer care.
great, makes two of us :)
 

Zemgirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,331
but AOC’s does? And the Holocaust museum’s staff does not?
There are holocaust scholars who agree with AOC and those who don't. There are Jewish people - including ones who have visited the sites of the camps in Poland and Germany - who agree, and others who don't.

This discussion only serves to distract from how people are being treated at the border (which is worse under Trump and unacceptable under any administration) and from rising antisemitism, which is an issue on the right and the left.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
There are holocaust scholars who agree with AOC and those who don't. There are Jewish people - including ones who have visited the sites of the camps in Poland and Germany - who agree, and others who don't.

This discussion only serves to distract from how people are being treated at the border (which is worse under Trump and unacceptable under any administration) and from rising antisemitism, which is an issue on the right and the left.
The discussion of the detention centers is an important one but not the topic of this thread. If such thread exists, I hope it contains ideas for practical help and not just virtue signaling.

Antisemitism is what is being discussed here. I believe AOC’s statement trivializes the mass torture and murder committed at the Nazi camps against Jews and other groups the Nazis considered subhuman
 

Zemgirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,331
The discussion of the detention centers is an important one but not the topic of this thread. If such thread exists, I hope it contains ideas for practical help and not just virtue signaling.

Antisemitism is what is being discussed here. I believe AOC’s statement trivializes the mass torture and murder committed at the Nazi camps against Jews and other groups the Nazis considered subhuman
I agree that the current treatment of asylum seekers in the US is best discussed elsewhere.

As for practical help, people have tried donating supplies and been turned away. Most FSUers do not live in the Southwestern US. Beyond voting and demonstrating (more relevant for the Americans among us) discussing these issues and advocating for human rights wherever we live is the best most of us can do.

AOC makes some provocative statements. She represents a very safe Democratic district, so she is in a position to do that. I do not object to the use of the term "concentration camps" in reference to contemporary events, if it is merited. I don't think "never again" means much if it is applied too narrowly - or too broadly.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
I know of an organization that has helped and is planning to help detainees at our border with Mexico again. In fact, they are headed to the Texas-Mexico border again this long weekend. They have helped many groups of people in distress before. PM me if interested.

AOC is a douche at best and a Republican plant at worst. It’s a big holiday for the GOP every time she tweets. She and other left wingnuts will cost Dems the election
 
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Zemgirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,331
I know of an organization that has helped and is planning to help detainees at our border with Mexico again. In fact, they are headed to the Texas-Mexico border again this long weekend. They have helped many groups of people in distress before. PM me if interested.
This is a US issue and it needs to be addressed by the US. I donate to organizations active in Israel, where we have plenty of issues of our own to deal with.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
Messages
37,261
This is a US issue and it needs to be addressed by the US. I donate to organizations active in Israel, where we have plenty of issues of our own to deal with.
OK. No one would dispute that you have plenty of issues of your own in Israel.

Anyone else?
 

allezfred

Baby Jolly Man Face
Staff member
Messages
54,905
Can’t speak for anyone else, but if I had known that people were being kept in squalid conditions under the Obama Administration I would have been very upset. The fact that IceAlisa is upset at those of us who are upset at children being ripped apart from their parents and then some of those same children DYING says it all really. This is happening on Trump’s watch. The buck stops there.
 

antmanb

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,908
No PMs so far. :shuffle: A real chance to give real help
Speaking of virtue signalling...

I don't share or trust your opinion on many things so i'm not going to PM you about anything, i'm happy to do my own research on the subject and i'm fairly certain all posters on FSU are capable of doing so.
 

PRlady

Gutting it out
Messages
32,286
Lots of obvious things don’t occur to you, I suppose. I lost family members. I have heard direct accounts. I walked the land soaked in the blood of my people and have grown up surrounded with these images of piles of emaciated corpses. Piles of children’s shoes and empty canisters of Zyklon gas. Babyi Yar. Lets say my knowledge of the matter is more direct than yours.


who are you talking about here? Who are these people that observed what Obama did and weren’t triggered? I believe I have already given my opinion on what people should speak out on. Anything.
Oh stop playing the Jewish card. Plenty of us lost family, mine would be 90% bigger were it not for the Holocaust. I’ve been to Auschwitz and Babi Yar and the Vilnius ghetto and so on. And spent four years of my life consciously working to broaden American understanding of the Shoah.

Your determination to make this an Obama thing is telling. The most awful thing now being done, family separation, was not law or policy under Obama. And he did not run or govern on a platform that demonized immigrants, calling them filth and rapists, denying asylum seekers their legal rights.

I’m so proud of the hundreds of rabbis who have condemned this shameful treatment as opposed to Jewish history and values. You would rather stick it to a former president than acknowledge that now it is much worse and that this administration blatantly doesn’t care. And your being Jewish makes it worse, not better.
 
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Ania

Well-Known Member
Messages
472
No PMs so far. :shuffle: A real chance to give real help
Why not just post the link or name of the organization?

Since you asked what those of us who are outraged are doing, I donate to several organizations listed here: https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2019/07/236724/help-migrant-children-at-border-crisis
Locally, I’m involved with an organization helping immigrants and refugees in the Pittsburgh region: https://casasanjose.org/history-services-vision/
I call my elected representatives and will go to the national vigil & protest on July 12.

Posting about the crisis online is not mutually exclusive with being active in real life. If you know of other ways to help people kept in terrible conditions at the border, please share them.
 

PRlady

Gutting it out
Messages
32,286
And another thing. Not only did I run communications for the Holocaust museum for four years, my ex was director of exhibitions until the year we split up, so for 15 more years I knew their policy debates very well. They hold that the Holocaust was a singular event in history, but not that all the elements of it were singular. They said not one word in response to AOC’s comments, which tells us all we need to know.

ETA: I notice that when Yair Golan, a former top general in the Israeli army and now a centrist candidate for Knesset, compared modern-day Israel to Weimar Germany, Yad VaShem did not comment. And that's a really provocative analogy in Israel. In other words, not every comparison that is politically unpalatable is worthy of historical critique. Had AOC's comments come from Dick Durban or Steny Hoyer, politicians very publicly aligned with Israel, people might have murmured but the attack dogs would not have barked.
 
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BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
53,014
Actually if you read the article in the NY Review of Books on concentration camps posted elsewhere, what has happened with first family detention centers under Obama, that didn't gain attention despite immigrant rights groups speaking out, then being followed by worse conditions under the next administration--this is the norm in history once outsiders not wanted in a country start being detained without the due process afforded citizens.

We are in a very dangerous place with regard to the existence of detention centers. Congress has decided to continue funding them, thereby okaying them. Some conditions may improve briefly but people are likely to look away and without attention the conditions will become worse.

As Rep. Veronica Escobar has put it, there would not be a crisis at the border if we chose an alternative to containing people in detention facilities. The facilities are overcrowded only because we choose to put people in them in the first place. We can use different policies that do not include detention.

These issues matter and what does not matter is Democrat or Republican, Obama or Trump, and arguments about hypocrisy and terminology. Kids are being held in unacceptable conditions. So are adults. We can change this. Its not about sending them some toothpaste through some relief organization. Its about changing the policies, closing the detention centers and adopting a humane way of dealing with people who are fleeing desperate conditions in Central America.

This post belongs in this thread because these are the elements of this discussion.

I certainly would rather discuss anti-semitism in this thread as it needs to be discussed and there are other threads for US policies toward asylum seekers and migrants.
 

Andora

Skating season ends as baseball season begins
Messages
11,172
This discussion only serves to distract from how people are being treated at the border (which is worse under Trump and unacceptable under any administration) and from rising antisemitism, which is an issue on the right and the left.
This is now my issue with AOC's comment. Not that it was right or wrong, but that it's become too much of a distraction. I'd imagine she had better intentions, and ideally she'll learn from it. If she purposely put herself in the spotlight and used the Holocaust to do so, that would be despicable-- at best. But I don't think that's what she intended here. Her work since then seems to speak to that. Thank you to all the FSUers who've openly shared links to how we can help.

I don't know if comparing the atrocious camps to Concentration Camps is anti-Semitic in itself. I need to seek more non-partisan takes on it from Jewish people who may feel that way, because it's too hard to trust when it's amid the usual bluster from those to the right/anti-left.
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
53,014
AOC is trying to draw attention to the camps and the conditions. That is why she used the term. It wasn't her use of the term that caused a distraction, it was those who don't want her voice heard who have caused the distraction.

When AOC learns all the ins and outs of acting just like all the other members of Congress, then we will need a new AOC who is still willing to take the criticism for not falling in line.

It has been documented that FOX News mentions AOC thousands of times: they have worked very hard to demonize her.

AOC is not the issue; our policies at the border are.

People have been using analogies to Hitler and Nazism since Trump became a serious contender for the Republican nomination in 2016. There is a reason why after the rightwing campaign to demonize AOC her comments have received enormous focus.

I really wish people would not do the rightwing's work for them by endlessly discussing what they put forward.

AOC and other representatives were at the border yesterday describing conditions at the centers. That is what we need to focus on.
 

jeffisjeff

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,868
It is amazing how Obama can simultaneously be the king of "catch and release" and to blame for the current conditions at the ICE detention centers. He really is all powerful!
 

Ania

Well-Known Member
Messages
472
This article says detainee mortality rates are pretty much the same for the previous and current administrations https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/immigrant-deaths-under-trump-on-par-with-obama-numbers-dhs?_amp=true
It looks like you are replying to @Prancer's point that conditions have worsened under the current administration. The article indeed says that overall mortality rates are similar between the current and past administrations. This however, does not suggest that conditions have not worsened. Here are some relevant quotes from https://www.newsweek.com/migrant-detention-centers-trump-obama-1447160
"Back in 2015, during Obama's tenure, a lawsuit filed by the ACLU referred to detention facilities as "hieleras" or "iceboxes," as Salon reported. The lawsuit accused CBP of maintaining "appalling conditions" that left people in "freezing, overcrowded, and filthy cells for extended periods of time, no access to beds, soap, showers, adequate meals and water, medical care, and lawyers in violation of constitutional standards and Border Patrol's own policies." Those allegations sound almost identical to current conditions that have faced harsh criticism in recent weeks. ....
.... While conditions were poor under Obama's administration, some things appear to have grown worse during Trump's tenure. A report by The Marshall Project found that the average daily population of migrants in detention centers has risen under Trump. ...
... Although family separations did occur under Obama and previous administrations, such decisions were relatively rare and not used to deter migrants from coming to the country. ...
... There were also no migrant children who died while in CBP custody during the final six years of the Obama administration. Former DHS Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen previously admitted that it had been more than a decade since a child had died in CBP detention until December of last year, when an eight-year-old Guatemalan national passed away on Christmas eve. Since then, at least four other children have died while detained. ..."

You could argue whether we should use 'overall mortality' vs. 'child mortality' as the relevant outcome to compare, but it is a silly exercise when on several different dimensions things have gotten worse.

I will say that I am one of the people who did not pay attention to this issue during the previous administration. I have been complacent and it makes me complicit. Clearly the information was out there for me to find and I didn't. If you were posting about it then and I did not see it, it is totally on me (I was around on this forum and I do remember you were very concerned about Obama's health care proposals and growing national debt; I do not remember much discussion of immigration but this of course does not mean it did not happen). I can't change what I did not do in the past.

I'll add one last thing. Since this discussion started with AOC's use of the term concentration camps and since you told us where you are coming from, I thought I'd mention where I am coming from. You and I have quite a bit in common on where we are coming from. My mom is Russian but my dad is Jewish, so I grew up in the former USSR steeped in similar family stories and imagery that you mentioned above. Antisemitism is something that worries me a lot. My kids know that they would have been Jewish enough to end up inside the gas chambers in Nazi Germany. But at present, we are drawing very different conclusions from the same data - both my dad and I understand that AOC was not comparing border camps of today to death camps of Nazi Germany of 1941-1945; we do see a whole lot of similarities between early German concentration camps of 1935/1936 and U.S. border camps of today. We both are terrified at the inescapable similarities. 'Never Again' to us does not mean that we wait until the comparison is perfect to be justified, it means that we join those who raise alarm early enough to prevent the comparison becoming a better one.
 

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