Alexey Navalny

mjb52

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I thought this was a decent article on Navalny from The Nation: https://www.thenation.com/article/world/putin-navalny-russia-protests/ although it didn't talk much about the "nationalist" issue. I'm really intrigued by how hard it is to get at whether it's a legitimate criticism, a strategy being used consciously to de-legitimize him, or even both. Maybe you have to actually be Russian to have a good sense of that; if there is one thing this past year has shown me, it's that our understanding of what's going on in other countries is inevitably superficial and incomplete, no matter how interested in them we are. I'm not sure how much it is even possible to truly understand what's going on in other parts of our own countries. It's not like you want to throw up your hand and not try, but it's definitely important to keep in mind.
 

Vagabond

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Opposition to President Vladimir V. Putin has long come in many hues — from Stalinists who dream of resurrecting the planned economy, to nationalists who want to restrict migration and annex more of Ukraine, to urban liberals who long for democracy and closer ties with the West. Rarely have these disparate groups come together as they have in the last week around Mr. Navalny — because the moment has arrived, more and more Russians say, when they can no longer abide passive acceptance of Mr. Putin.

Mr. Putin’s usually atomized critics have come together around the figure of Mr. Navalny, 44, not for his political views but because he is perceived as a symbol of the main source of the anger that many Russians feel toward the Kremlin: injustice.
People who point to Navalny's many shortcomings are missing the point.
 

caseyedwards

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People who point to Navalny's many shortcomings are missing the point.
If Russia wants to make navalny president that’s up to them. Americans should not want it. Americans don’t know Jack squat about him.
 

mjb52

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I'm so bewildered by the idea that being an ethnic nationalist is somehow nothing to worry about now. Do you think the people who vote for populist/nationalist parties anywhere don't also think the ends justify the means? I have no idea how legit this particular critique of Navalny is, and I think it's definitely very fair to suggest that it is being used purposefully by the Kremlin or whomever to try to disqualify him at the West. At the same time... it is sort of a big deal isn't it? I don't think it's missing the point to suggest that the US has a long and troubling history of promoting deeply problematic figures in other countries that has generally not worked out well historically. It's not like I personally am super invested in this issue and I don't want to get in some big argument or something about it; I guess I just find the idea that being mildly surprised that a figure who is being hugely promoted in the West right now might have a history of racism is "missing the point" a bit weird. As long as there is reasonable transparency about it, as it appears there may be in The NY Times article (I've unsubscribed for a variety of reasons so I can't read it) it doesn't bother me as much.
 

Vagabond

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I guess I just find the idea that being mildly surprised that a figure who is being hugely promoted in the West right now might have a history of racism is "missing the point" a bit weird. As long as there is reasonable transparency about it, as it appears there may be in The NY Times article (I've unsubscribed for a variety of reasons so I can't read it) it doesn't bother me as much.
There is a lot of racism in Russia. There is even more nationalism. You wouldn't have to look far in the governing regime to find either one.
 

DORISPULASKI

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Masha Alekhina of the band Pussy Riot was arrested following recent demonstrations. The charges are for violating "sanitary and epidemiological rules," and she could be subject to two years in jail.

She was released after 48 hours and is awaiting trial.

Now, that's some enforcement teeth in YKW restrictions...

Band member Nadya Tolokonnikova was interviewed by Lawrence O'Donnell about this, Friday, I think.
 

DELTA

Active Member
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I'm so bewildered by the idea that being an ethnic nationalist is somehow nothing to worry about now. Do you think the people who vote for populist/nationalist parties anywhere don't also think the ends justify the means? I have no idea how legit this particular critique of Navalny is, and I think it's definitely very fair to suggest that it is being used purposefully by the Kremlin or whomever to try to disqualify him at the West. At the same time... it is sort of a big deal isn't it? I don't think it's missing the point to suggest that the US has a long and troubling history of promoting deeply problematic figures in other countries that has generally not worked out well historically. It's not like I personally am super invested in this issue and I don't want to get in some big argument or something about it; I guess I just find the idea that being mildly surprised that a figure who is being hugely promoted in the West right now might have a history of racism is "missing the point" a bit weird. As long as there is reasonable transparency about it, as it appears there may be in The NY Times article (I've unsubscribed for a variety of reasons so I can't read it) it doesn't bother me as much.

It's so funny seeing progressives cheering on someone who's openly racist.
 

allezfred

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caseyedwards

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Same thing in that RT article are in NYT and Atlantic

There is no reason for leftists to support navalny as president of Russia. Why they are so desperate to install him as leader needs explanation
 

Vash01

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Last night I saw on CNN that Navalny has asked Biden for help. Not sure what kind of help but it is good to see Russians coming out to protest against Putin. The article mentioned that costs are going up in Russia, and YKW is spreading. There is a lot of frustration so the protests are not just because of Navalny.

When I read that he had returned to Russia, after being poisoned, I wondered why? I think it shows his dedication. Also, living abroad is no guarantee of safety, as we have seen in the case of Litvinenko and others.

Live updates on the protests
 

allezfred

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There was mistake. Allowing people who don’t want to engage in substance to attack sources and make the source the issue
RT is a Russian state funded news organisation. It is absolutely an issue when it comes to reporting on the Russian President’s main opponent.

I would not vote for someone like Navalny, but it seems like many Russians would. Why are you and DELTA against Russian people have the choice to vote between him and Putin? I think the answer is clear. ;)
 

DELTA

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RT is a Russian state funded news organisation. It is absolutely an issue when it comes to reporting on the Russian President’s main opponent.

I would not vote for someone like Navalny, but it seems like many Russians would. Why are you and DELTA against Russian people have the choice to vote between him and Putin? I think the answer is clear. ;)
Do you realize there are other candidates? Last time communist candidate, Grudinin, came second in Presidential election.
 

Jot the Dot Dot

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My concern is which politician would be more malleable, or could be held in check better. Putin subscribes to The Divine Right Of Commissars, and is a known entity incapable of being nudged; Navalny, not so much, and perhaps with him at the helm, Russia has a better chance of liberalization.
 

caseyedwards

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RT is a Russian state funded news organisation. It is absolutely an issue when it comes to reporting on the Russian President’s main opponent.

I would not vote for someone like Navalny, but it seems like many Russians would. Why are you and DELTA against Russian people have the choice to vote between him and Putin? I think the answer is clear. ;)
Russians can do whatever the heck they want! I oppose navalny getting love and support when no one knows his policies on russians in Georgia. Expanding nato to ukraine, does anyone know his position on nordstream 2? What about nuclear North Korea or iran. Gay marriage. Climate change. Even the kind of government structure navalny actually wants to have. That is for Russians to deal with.

My concern is which politician would be more malleable, or could be held in check better. Putin subscribes to The Divine Right Of Commissars, and is a known entity incapable of being nudged; Navalny, not so much, and perhaps with him at the helm, Russia has a better chance of liberalization.
Liberalization to what end? One thing that created Putin was all the incredible sanctions that were carried over from the Soviet Union to Russia. Not only was there a change in leaders there was a whole radical change of systems and Russia had to operate under Cold War sanctions like jackson vannik. And nato too of course. Anti Soviet to anti Russia
 
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Jot the Dot Dot

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Liberalization to what end? One thing that created Putin was all the incredible sanctions that were carried over from the Soviet Union to Russia. Not only was there a change in leaders there was a whole radical change of systems and Russia had to operate under Cold War sanctions like jackson vannik.
Liberalization towards freeing the press, releasing all political prisoners, ending Putin's military ventures which would include the excursions in the Middle East, the list could go on and on.
 

caseyedwards

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My concern is which politician would be more malleable, or could be held in check better. Putin subscribes to The Divine Right Of Commissars, and is a known entity incapable of being nudged; Navalny, not so much, and perhaps with him at the helm, Russia has a better chance of liberalization.

I know what they can liberalize I just don’t know what the reward for Russia is. Why does Russia have such close ties to iran and Syria? Because being under so much US sanctions left over from soviet times meant Russia had to make money somewhere and they found Syria and iran very welcoming! Because they were also under US sanctions. Then that meant more sanctions. Would the US repeal Magnitsky if navalny was pardoned? Or would it take pardoning navalny, and leaving Crimea and Syria as well. And then what about gay rights? Before crimea boycotts of sochi were possible because of gay rights violations!

Then there is the big issue of NATO. What can ever get it abolished or welcome Russia
 

DORISPULASKI

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Do you realize there are other candidates? Last time communist candidate, Grudinin, came second in Presidential election.
Yes. Michael McFaul, former US ambassador to Russia, noted this in an interview this weekend. He said that what he thought Putin was afraid of in Navalny was his reach as a blogger, not his power in an election. He thought what Navalny wanted was to live in a Russia that was a "boring" European style democracy with free and fair elections, rather to be president himself. McFaul' s perceptions may be entirely wrong, but are not as simplistic as pushing Navalny to replace Putin without knowing Navalny' s positions. The issues seem to be assassination and jailing people without cause and free press issues to him.
 

allezfred

Lipinski Stole My Catchphrase
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fixed for you
What does Trump being the Republican candidate in 2024 have to do with anything we have been talking about? :confused:

You really are very dumb, except you think you are clever. Putin really should be asking for his money back.
 

DELTA

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What does Trump being the Republican candidate in 2024 have to do with anything we have been talking about? :confused:

You really are very dumb, except you think you are clever. Putin really should be asking for his money back.
Democrats want to impeach him so he wouldn't run in 2024.
 

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