Afghanistan

becca

Well-Known Member
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20,625
Full video of the speech is available here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbMp7GHhdqs
I hate to say it but I think we are too. Americans IMO have no real clue what war is like.

We haven’t had a war on our soil since the Civil War. We have never experienced a mass bombings on our soil. Isolated events but mass events no?

So we sit here in relative comfort and just send our troops places and our bombs places with no real clue about the consequences that we bring. Or the chaos. And then we get tired of it and leave.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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43,210
Trump didn't, and wouldn't have, removed the military while leaving thousands of American civilians stranded.
That's pretty much exactly what he did though. He left almost no troops there but didn't get any civilians out. He gave the Taliban the keys to the Kingdom and for pretty much nothing in return. He needs to own his own role in this mess. Not that he will. Instead, he's wiped his website of all mention of his role in negotiating with the Taliban.


According to this article, things might not be smooth sailing for the Taliban, btw. Apparently, there are other terrorist groups in the area that don't agree with them on everything and might try to take over as well.
 

Vagabond

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19,761
Isn’t Nikki Haley a Trumplican? :confused:
When it suits her, which is most of the time.

On the other hand, she is capable of stuff like this:
 

Judy

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3,233
I should hope not, given that there are also many Afghan citizens who need to be evacuated and resettled in the US.

FWIW, I doubt they know precisely how many American citizens there are anywhere in the world. People move around, and not all of them can/will get in touch with the relevant authorities.
They likely know how many are there but they could be in hiding too. But the media doesn't know everything either.
 

Rina RUS

Well-Known Member
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1,081
I mean the Soviet government lasted for a few years!

It is said that government lasted for 3 years. USSR had been supporting that government even after leaving the country. It is said it could last even longer, but USSR stopped supporting that government, because USSR didn’t exist anymore. It is also said there was a kind of international boycott against that government.

As for the army, Russians say they had the same problem in Afghanistan: those people who were taken to the state army could easily join the mujahideen troops. Now people who were taken to the state army easily join the Taliban troops, so the Taliban army can “grow like a rolling snowball”.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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43,210
They likely know how many are there
Doubtful. In one article I read, back in May they didn't have a list of all the Afghan translators let alone all the people who have worked for American companies or helped the military. As for US citizens, where would such a list be compiled? Is there a requirement to register with the US consulate when you visit a foreign country? I don't know of any such requirement but I've never traveled to the Middle East.
 

MsZem

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16,514
Doubtful. In one article I read, back in May they didn't have a list of all the Afghan translators let alone all the people who have worked for American companies or helped the military. As for US citizens, where would such a list be compiled? Is there a requirement to register with the US consulate when you visit a foreign country? I don't know of any such requirement but I've never traveled to the Middle East.
I can't speak as to US requirements, but unless my government is somehow tracking me abroad, they wouldn't know where I am when I'm traveling. I don't even use my Israeli passport for most destinations.
 

Vagabond

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19,761
As for US citizens, where would such a list be compiled? Is there a requirement to register with the US consulate when you visit a foreign country? I don't know of any such requirement but I've never traveled to the Middle East.
It's not a requirement, but the U.S. Department of State recommends that all of its citizens living abroad register with the nearest consulate or embassy when living abroad. This is how the U.S. Government knows whom to evacuate.

Given that the Taliban uprising had been going on for quite some time before the collapse of the Ghani government, I would expect that most Americans in Afghanistan followed the recommendation.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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43,210
It's not a requirement, but the U.S. Department of State recommends that all of its citizens living abroad register with the nearest consulate or embassy when living abroad. This is how the U.S. Government knows whom to evacuate.

Given that the Taliban uprising had been going on for quite some time before the collapse of the Ghani government, I would expect that most Americans in Afghanistan followed the recommendation.
Well, that's good. It doesn't cover travelers but rational people aren't going to pick this month to visit Afghanistan.

I would suspect that most of them have gotten out already if it weren't for the article I read that said that many were resisting leaving until the last second.

There also seems to be some confusion as to who is eligible to leave. The US is saying anyone with a pending SIV app. But I read an article on CNN that interviewed two people who have pending SIV apps but seem to think they can't leave until they are approved.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
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30,764
It's not a requirement, but the U.S. Department of State recommends that all of its citizens living abroad register with the nearest consulate or embassy when living abroad. This is how the U.S. Government knows whom to evacuate.

Given that the Taliban uprising had been going on for quite some time before the collapse of the Ghani government, I would expect that most Americans in Afghanistan followed the recommendation.

Not sure if this is the same for the US, but there are some countries that imply or say outright that if you're not registered with the local embassy or consulate, they won't help you if there's an evacuation. Either that or you'll be very low down on the priority list.
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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1,558
Trump didn't, and wouldn't have, removed the military while leaving thousands of American civilians stranded. Biden did, apparently against the advice of his generals, CIA, and common sense. The taliban have all the leverage now. They could take hundreds of hostages, or worse.
:rofl:

Trump would have personally handed over Ivanka, Jared and Donnie Jr. if he thought he could grift a few pennies more out of it.

Or if he thought his ego would be stroked in any way shape or form.

Particularly by folks who are so concerned about "But muh freedoms" or "But muh taxes" or "Har de har har I'm owning those libs har de har" that they fall mindlessly for his grift.

No one is saying this is a wonderful situation. Under Don the Con it would have been so. much. worse.:(
 

ballettmaus

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16,819
I want to take a moment and call out the press for fomenting hysteria. I wanted to see stories on how the evacuations were proceeding because I rely on data and results before I judge a leader’s handling of a situation. I could not find anything substantial and I thought: How easy it was to find the rush to judgment on Biden pieces bordering on hysteria, mostly opinion pieces, then find actual news of what our leaders were doing about the situation. Of course, I keep seeing emotional video clips of a military plane with Afghanis clinging to it, but I had a lot of trouble locating data of who actually was getting in and out
CNN had a news clip this morning from one of their journalists who spoke of chaos and you could hear shots being fired in the background. At the same time, the NBC correspondent tweeted that things had calmed down, evacuation was going okay and planes were leaving.
The CNN journalist was on the civilian side of the airport, the NBC correspondent on the military side. It all depends on the story they want to tell.
 

MsZem

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16,514
Trump would have personally handed over Ivanka, Jared and Donnie Jr. if he thought he could grift a few pennies more out of it.
Not Ivanka!

FWIW, I believe Jared would have done a better job of negotiating than his father in law. Some of the details of the agreement that was reached boggle the mind.
 

b-man

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1,342
:rofl:

Trump would have personally handed over Ivanka, Jared and Donnie Jr. if he thought he could grift a few pennies more out of it.

Or if he thought his ego would be stroked in any way shape or form.

Particularly by folks who are so concerned about "But muh freedoms" or "But muh taxes" or "Har de har har I'm owning those libs har de har" that they fall mindlessly for his grift.

No one is saying this is a wonderful situation. Under Don the Con it would have been so. much. worse.:(
It didn't collapse under Trump, he knows how to manage problems. Trump said withdrawals would be conditioned based, that is, if Taliban violated the agreements, which they did, the US wouldn't be bound by the agreements. The dementia riddled Biden proceeded with the withdrawal regardless, apparently ignoring advice from Miley and the CIA. The Biden withdrawal announcements in April/May led to the collapse of the Afghan Nat Army, who would fight when supported and encouraged by the US. !00% fault on Biden.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,790
Trump didn't, and wouldn't have, removed the military while leaving thousands of American civilians stranded. Biden did, apparently against the advice of his generals, CIA, and common sense. The taliban have all the leverage now. They could take hundreds of hostages, or worse.
So would have Trump done? Seriously you think the narcissist in chief could have handled it any better.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,790
It didn't collapse under Trump, he knows how to manage problems. Trump said withdrawals would be conditioned based, that is, if Taliban violated the agreements, which they did, the US wouldn't be bound by the agreements. The dementia riddled Biden proceeded with the withdrawal regardless, apparently ignoring advice from Miley and the CIA. The Biden withdrawal announcements in April/May led to the collapse of the Afghan Nat Army, who would fight when supported and encouraged by the US. !00% fault on Biden.
Yeah he really knew how to handle a ********* didn't he.

Where it the evidence Biden has dementia? Trump exhibits all the signs of dementia - irrationality, no cohesive train of thought, forgets many things, etc etc.
 
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ballettmaus

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16,819
Biden did, apparently against the advice of his generals, CIA, and common sense.
The generals and IC are all saying that they did not expect the fall of the government so quickly. That, too, is advice they gave Biden and one could argue that that advice is the reason for the chaos.

I would like to know what advice they gave him exactly. There seems to be consensus that 2,500 troops weren't enough had they stayed. Logically, they should have adviced him to increase troops and that was never going to happen.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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13,638
:rofl:

Trump would have personally handed over Ivanka, Jared and Donnie Jr. if he thought he could grift a few pennies more out of it.

Or if he thought his ego would be stroked in any way shape or form.

Particularly by folks who are so concerned about "But muh freedoms" or "But muh taxes" or "Har de har har I'm owning those libs har de har" that they fall mindlessly for his grift.

No one is saying this is a wonderful situation. Under Don the Con it would have been so. much. worse.:(
What sources are you basing these assertions on?
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
Messages
1,558
It didn't collapse under Trump, he knows how to manage problems. Trump said withdrawals would be conditioned based, that is, if Taliban violated the agreements, which they did, the US wouldn't be bound by the agreements. The dementia riddled Biden proceeded with the withdrawal regardless, apparently ignoring advice from Miley and the CIA. The Biden withdrawal announcements in April/May led to the collapse of the Afghan Nat Army, who would fight when supported and encouraged by the US. !00% fault on Biden.


Trump knows how to handle problems??? Yeah, and Jason has five quads and I'm calling Interpol right now about Yuzu's scores. I don't live in that fantasy world:D.

Or the fantasy world where Biden has "dementia". Of course, to believe that, one would have take seriously the ravings of the frozen fish stick heir. And be calling Interpol about figure skating scores.....

I do live in the world where Trump couldn't handle the CV, was such a sore loser that he fomented insurrection, and ripped off the federal government for the money that his broke and debt ridden self needed so badly. ETA: There is absolutely no evidence he would have handled Afghanistan any differently than the way he mishandled everything else.
 

Rina RUS

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1,081
I am just so sad for the good Afghanistans ... it is like the Taliban cannot be defeated. No matter what.

I read an article about the history of all those wars in Afghanistan.

It says Afghanistan declared independence from Great Britain in 1919. Muhammad Nadir Shah was the first king. After his death his son Muhammad Zahir Shah started to rule the country. He organized the first contemporary university, broadened rights of women, he tried to have good relations both with Moscow and Washington. He was overthrown by Muhammad Daoud. Muhammad Daoud declared himself the first president, but his politics “was far from democracy”. Then local communists overthrew Muhammad Daoud. (It is said that USSR most likely didn’t participate in that.) Local communists started to build socialism, but many people didn’t like the changes. The religion became the key issue, so mujahedeen (‘defenders of religion’) started to fight with communists. The rulers were also fighting with each other, were cruel to people, people were migrating to Pakistan…

Finally, USSR decided that the situation had become too dangerous, decided to get involved. The new (pro-Soviet) ruler was more tolerant to the religion, there also was amnesty of mujahedeen and etc. Yet the war didn’t stop. Iran and Pakistan kept helping the mujahedeen (they could train in Pakistan, could get weapon). Later USA, China started to help the mujahedeen too.

When USSR didn’t exist anymore, mujahedeen managed to overthrow the communists. Yet mujahedeen kept fighting with each other.

As for “Taliban”, it is said that this word means “students”. Taliban appeared a few years after the leaving of the soviet troops. Taliban believed that mujahedeen couldn’t stop the war, because mujahedeen were not religious enough. It was a new generation – a generation “practicing terrorist methods”. Somebody was supposed to teach children of all those people who had migrated from Afghanistan to Pakistan, so some teachers did it, and Taliban is the result of their work.

It is said Taliban make no secret of the fact that they were trained in Pakistan, that they get weapon in Pakistan. They also can gather new fighters there and be treated in Pakistan hospitals. Pakistan denies relations with Taliban.

 
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b-man

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1,342
That's pretty much exactly what he did though. He left almost no troops there but didn't get any civilians out. He gave the Taliban the keys to the Kingdom and for pretty much nothing in return. He needs to own his own role in this mess. Not that he will. Instead, he's wiped his website of all mention of his role in negotiating with the Taliban.


According to this article, things might not be smooth sailing for the Taliban, btw. Apparently, there are other terrorist groups in the area that don't agree with them on everything and might try to take over as well.
Hmmm. I thought Biden was the President since January, seven months ago. Trump left 2,500 troops with no collapse. Since the Taliban were violating the agreement post Trump, it seems unlikely he wouldn't have adjusted his response. I have confidence Trump would have done better. When he thought Assad violated agreements in Syria, he took action, 60 cruise missiles. Biden wanted out regardless of the costs, 10,000 stranded Americans. The EU may despise Trump, as he is often more successful, but they never questioned his resolve. They have just been educated on Biden's resolve. I can't imagine how Biden could have done worse.

Interesting article on how the collapse occurred.
 

b-man

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1,342
Trump knows how to handle problems??? Yeah, and Jason has five quads and I'm calling Interpol right now about Yuzu's scores. I don't live in that fantasy world:D.

Or the fantasy world where Biden has "dementia". Of course, to believe that, one would have take seriously the ravings of the frozen fish stick heir. And be calling Interpol about figure skating scores.....

I do live in the world where Trump couldn't handle the CV, was such a sore loser that he fomented insurrection, and ripped off the federal government for the money that his broke and debt ridden self needed so badly. ETA: There is absolutely no evidence he would have handled Afghanistan any differently than the way he mishandled everything else.
Fauci told Trump it would take 3-5 years to develop a vaccine. Trump got 2 vaccines out in 9 months, with a 3rd following shortly thereafter. He was smart enough to start mass production with big orders before FDA approval, so once approval came in Nov '20, people were getting shots in December. It would never have happened under sleepy Joe. I love the way Trump "couldn't handle" the CV.

I would be a sore looser too after seeing video of Fulton county election center, and that's not counting irregularities in AZ, NV, MI, and your home state.. Were you part of the fix?

Both Trump and sleepy Joe wanted out of Afghanistan. Only dementia ridden Biden left 10k Americans stranded behind enemy lines. Hopefully Miley or that fool Blinken will bail him out.
 

b-man

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Messages
1,342
You live in such an interesting world.

EU thought Trump was flaky and unreliable. They've said so.
Agree. And Trump thought the EU skated without paying their NATO committments, and said so. Now they got "reliable" Joe. How's that working out?
 

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