Abortion discussions - latest court cases

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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14,288

Appeals court blocks abortion under Florida consent law​


"An appeals court Monday upheld a decision by a Northwest Florida circuit judge to block a teen from having an abortion without notification and consent of a parent or guardian.

The teen, described by one appellate judge as almost 17 years old and “parentless,” sought court approval to bypass notification and consent requirements in state law."


"'The trial court found, based on the non-adversarial presentation below, that appellant (the teen) had not established by clear and convincing evidence that she was sufficiently mature to decide whether to terminate her pregnancy,' said the ruling, fully shared by Judges Harvey Jay and Rachel Nordby and partially joined by Judge Scott Makar. 'Having reviewed the record, we affirm the trial court’s decision under the deferential standard of appellate review set out (in the consent law).'"

(She's not sufficiently mature enough to decide to terminate, but she's sufficiently mature enough to have a baby without any parental support?)
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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14,288

My Abortion at 11 Wasn’t a Choice. It Was My Life.​


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Video clip: "Michigan Deputy Attorney General Christina Grossi making an impassioned plea to allow women the ability to continue making their own decision about their bodies, their futures and their lives."
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
18,343
Another horrible story just reported:

Doctors delayed a pregnant teen's chemo because it could harm her fetus. Cancer killed them both. NBC NEWS

Can the fake news mafia acknowledge that this story happened in the Dominican Republic in 2012? I was suspicious with the lack of link / evidence, but this is low even for this thread.

Sure, let’s bring in decades old examples from other parts of the world; anything to feed the hysteria. :rolleyes:

 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
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17,738
Can the fake news mafia acknowledge that this story happened in the Dominican Republic in 2012? I was suspicious with the lack of link / evidence, but this is low even for this thread.
Which is it? Fake, which means made up or did it actually happen?

Sure, let’s bring in decades old examples from other parts of the world; anything to feed the hysteria. :rolleyes:

Yes, because if a woman is forced to carry a headless baby in Louisiana, there's really nothing to fear.

There are already documented cases of care not having been provided and there is fear in the medical community. How about you read actual news for a change?! (There are more links if you're interested).








ETA: I wish you'd be forced to face every single woman who has already been denied an abortion, has struggled to get an abortion or medication/medical care and tell every single woman to their face that what they're going through is fake news/hysteria.
 
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maureenfarone

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Messages
2,636
Another horrible story just reported:

Doctors delayed a pregnant teen's chemo because it could harm her fetus. Cancer killed them both. NBC NEWS
I didn't see a link so I went to google and the only info I found was about a teenager in the Dominican Republic. The articles were from 2012. I think that story was horrific and I am definitely pro choice and am appalled at what is happening in the U. S. now but if there is information about this happening in the U. S. since the overturn of Roe v. Wade I couldn't find it.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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18,343
Which is it? Fake, which means made up or did it actually happen?

The “news” was presented as if it were happening in the US today, not the Dominican Republican 10 years ago. If you don’t condemn intentional misrepresentation, you’re part of the problem.

How about you read actual news for a change?! (There are more links if you're interested).

The news is that there’s no constitutional right to an abortion in the US, and that this is a state issue to decide. The constitution does protect right to interstate travel and interstate commerce, which allows anyone to travel to a state in which abortion is legal and have the procedure performed there. Anything else is hysteria.

ETA: I wish you'd be forced to face every single woman who has already been denied an abortion, has struggled to get an abortion or medication/medical care and tell every single woman to their face that what they're going through is fake news/hysteria.

I’d point them in the direction of numerous charities that would help them, or help them myself. I’d encourage them to write to Biden and the Democrats, who have had codifying Roe v Wade into law for years but failed to act on it. I’d encourage them to use referenda where possible to have the will of the people represented.

What I refuse to do is 1) support invented constitutional rights to support one’s political beliefs, and 2) use fearmongering and distortion to scare people into believing things that aren’t true. We’ve had enough from the “medical” community already.
 

sk9tingfan

Well-Known Member
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5,641
I know it won't bring her back, still, I hope her parents sue the sh*t out of those doctors for negligence and malpractice.
No, sue the state whose cruel legislation prompted this behavior for wrongful death. And preferably name the writers of the bill and all who voted for it.
 

antmanb

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,493
The “news” was presented as if it were happening in the US today, not the Dominican Republican 10 years ago. If you don’t condemn intentional misrepresentation, you’re part of the problem.
:rofl: yes who else on FSU makes broad general misrepresentations about all sorts of topics and then switches countries when they’re called out on their bullshit?! Oh you’re taking about the US, well I was talking about the UK or vice versa, or Italy.

It’s straight out of your hypocritical playbook!
 

Theatregirl1122

Needs a nap
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27,841
What I refuse to do is 1) support invented constitutional rights to support one’s political beliefs,

So your contention is that we need a strict originalist interpretation of the constitution, that we need to go by what the founding fathers intended, and that means the only rights they meant us to have are the ones enumerated in the constitution and bill of rights? Then what, I’m wondering, was amendment 9 for?

The founding fathers didn’t believe that rights were GIVEN to the people. The constitution doesn’t GIVE any rights. Rights are inalienable. Innate. The founding fathers weren’t listing the rights they were GIVING anyone.

Bodily autonomy is THE MOST innate right. If you do not have the right to control your own body, you have nothing. It’s not “invented.” It’s fundamental. A bunch of religious wackos don’t get to pretzel themselves into saying the separation of church and state was a protection for Christianity and claim to know what the founding fathers were thinking based on the Magna Carta when we can read what the founding fathers were thinking in amendment 9 and the federalist papers.
 

Trillian

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694
Bodily autonomy is THE MOST innate right.

Thank you for this entire post.

There’s no constitutional support for the argument that a U.S. citizen should lose their fundamental rights to life and liberty because of the whims or religious beliefs of some bullshit gerrymandered state legislatures. It’s a dishonest, misogynistic argument, with no legitimate basis in the text or the history of the document, and it’s completely incompatible with any actual reverence for human life. People repeating the same lies over and over again isn’t magically going to make any of the garbage they’re spouting true.
 

sk9tingfan

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5,641
I didn't see a link so I went to google and the only info I found was about a teenager in the Dominican Republic. The articles were from 2012. I think that story was horrific and I am definitely pro choice and am appalled at what is happening in the U. S. now but if there is information about this happening in the U. S. since the overturn of Roe v. Wade I couldn't find it.
Found the link from CNN:

 

maureenfarone

Well-Known Member
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2,636
Found the link from CNN:

Thank you for the link. This case was from 2012 and happened in the Dominican Republic. I realize that this could and probably would happen in the U. S. but at least at this time the teenager could be moved to a state where an abortion could be obtained based on saving the life of the mother.
 

skatemomaz

Resist
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5,872
The “news” was presented as if it were happening in the US today, not the Dominican Republican 10 years ago. If you don’t condemn intentional misrepresentation, you’re part of the problem.
Excuse me, from the story you linked here is the headline :

Mom fighting abortion bans after her daughter's death points to her homeland as a cautionary tale​

The Dominican Republic's total abortion ban prevented her 16-year-old daughter from getting timely medical care to treat her cancer. This can happen in the U.S., she says.
Please tell me how that is presenting the story as if it were happening in the US today? I found the headline quite clear.
Please also try to convince me it's not happening or will not happen in the US today. I'll wait.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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51,551

And this was interesting to me.
 
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Dobre

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14,288
I do think it is helpful to provide a link when you post a new story. I was going to ask for one, but forgot. (It isn't, after all, hard to ask for one).

Sometimes, I realize, there is no link because you see something on TV or hear it on the radio & want to share. In that case, I do try to say how I accessed the information because of course, one's memory isn't perfect so when I share that kind of stuff it's somewhat less reliable than sharing a written story one can check right away.
 

Amy L

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8,010
Excuse me, from the story you linked here is the headline :

Mom fighting abortion bans after her daughter's death points to her homeland as a cautionary tale​

The Dominican Republic's total abortion ban prevented her 16-year-old daughter from getting timely medical care to treat her cancer. This can happen in the U.S., she says.
Please tell me how that is presenting the story as if it were happening in the US today? I found the headline quite clear.
Please also try to convince me it's not happening or will not happen in the US today. I'll wait.

In the article, there are (current/American) stories like this one:

In the meantime, she was enduring cramps, passing clots of blood and having smelly yellow discharge. But hospital staff said her symptoms were not indicative of a severe enough infection to justify her pregnancy's termination, NPR reported. A few days later, after her symptoms worsened, an ethics panel determined Weller could undergo a stillborn delivery at the hospital.

There's an article about this from NPR here.

In all my womanly hysteria I can't see how "just go to another state" is always possible. If you have cramps, bloodloss, and smelly discharge, how easy is it to really go to a clinic in another state? The nearest place to Houston is New Mexico, which would be an awkward plane ride with the bleeding and smell, but a car ride is like 8+ hours through mostly empty desert where one would be truly SOL if there was a medical emergency on the way. Just because this woman survived waiting until she had the "right" kind of discharge to signal a bad enough infection doesn't mean that others will be that lucky. Having the choice between waiting for an infection to get bad enough for medical intervention or heading to another state is not a fair choice.

And what if you don't have an abortion-supportive state across the border? The lady with the fetus with cranial deformities was told to go to Florida from Louisiana. And she had less than a week to make a decision since she was nearing the 14-week stage which is the cutoff in Florida. If you don't have the funds to take the time off, hop on a plane, stay in a hotel, etc., what are you supposed to do? Contacting an abortion fund or starting a GoFundMe are not timely options.

A lot of states are playing fast and loose with their abortion bans without any regard to healthcare or human freaking decency in general. But I guess if I care about that I'm woke so I'll just sit in gerrymandered Texas and thank the Jesus I don't particularly believe in that the Constitution is closer to its pristine 1776 condition. :rolleyes: You know, like back at the time when women couldn't vote and the chances of dying in childbirth during a woman's lifetime was something like 1 in 8.
 

Dobre

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14,288
But I guess if I care about that I'm woke so I'll just sit in gerrymandered Texas and thank the Jesus I don't particularly believe in that the Constitution is closer to its pristine 1776 condition. :rolleyes:
1787

1788 for ratification.

I believe states didn't start criminalizing abortion until the 1870s?

Of course most states didn't even exist in 1788 so I guess "originalism" must not apply to us?
 

Louis

Private citizen
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18,343
And this was interesting to me.

As I’ve been saying all along to the people claiming they’d flee the US over this ruling, European abortion laws are stricter. Not a single European country abortion on demand at any time laws that the U.S. had under Roe v Wade. All European countries have gestational limits, with a narrow set of exceptions, and some like the U.K. require a reason for abortion. I do not think there will be political support to further liberalize the abortion laws, but maybe I’m wrong.

The U.S. is always tilting to extremes, especially but not only on this issue. European laws have taken a middle ground. In most countries, this is a settled issue, without the type of fighting we see in the U.S. While neither side may be totally happy, the laws are a compromise that the vast majority of people find acceptable.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
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17,738
The “news” was presented as if it were happening in the US today, not the Dominican Republican 10 years ago. If you don’t condemn intentional misrepresentation, you’re part of the problem.
Did you see the whole NBC post/news report? I only saw what was copied on here, so I have no idea what NBC actually reported vs what ended up here. I agree that what ended up here was misleading. That does not mean that NBC didn't report truthfully (after all, you yourself linked an NBC article) and it does not make the story false/fake.

The news is that there’s no constitutional right to an abortion in the US, and that this is a state issue to decide.
There are a lot of things that are not specifically stated in the Constitution but that are derived from what is in the Constitution. And yet, we don't debate those, we only debate the rights the religious right has a problem with.

The constitution does protect right to interstate travel and interstate commerce, which allows anyone to travel to a state in which abortion is legal and have the procedure performed there. Anything else is hysteria.
Except, it's not as simple as that. https://www.poynter.org/fact-checki...or-traveling-out-of-state-to-get-an-abortion/

The Idaho law isn't clear on out-of-state abortion and it leaves the door open for prosecution: https://www.eastidahonews.com/2022/...idaho-laws-may-apply-to-procedures-elsewhere/

That aside, the woman who carries a baby without a skull lives in Louisiana. She cannot have a legal abortion in Louisiana, the place where she lives. Yes, other states allow that kind of abortion but the nearest seems to be Florida. So, no, that woman does not have access to the abortion she needs because she can't have it where she lives and everything else costs money and time she may not have. That is not having access to abortion.

I’d point them in the direction of numerous charities that would help them, or help them myself.
Oh, to be a fly on the wall when you say that to a woman who was just denied her medication or who has just been informed that she will be in need of an abortion her state doesn't provide or is in an immediate need of an abortion she has to travel for (that she may not be able to afford)... It'll be a special treat if the woman's partner is present as well.

You really have no idea, do you?

I’d encourage them to write to Biden and the Democrats, who have had codifying Roe v Wade into law for years but failed to act on it.
How do you codify something with a 50-50 Senate majority when you need 60 votes?

Could they have done it under Obama? Sure. But it was considered settled law at the time, so they focused their time and energy on things they felt were more pressing at the time - like give Americans access to healthcare so that they don't go bankrupt when they get sick.

2) use fearmongering and distortion to scare people into believing things that aren’t true.
There are documented cases of women who have not gotten their medication for their chronic illnesses. What is not true about that?

And boy, if you believe that a woman will not be denied access to chemo in the US I've got not only but 5 bridges to sell you.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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13,275
An article from the WaPo about problems getting methotrexate prescriptions filled. I have gifted the link.

One 46 year old woman is getting a tubal ligation to prove to her pharmacist she cannot get pregnant. She has run out of the drug and is back in pain while waiting to arrange surgery, and so had a painful fall.

Another woman still has a supply. However, in an attempt to go off the drug when was 18, she developed an eye inflammation from the rheumatoid arthritis that permanently damaged her eyes.

Meanwhile pharmacists and doctors have formed a group to determine what they want to do about this sort of situation.

One solution is to make the patient take a pregnancy test each month to cope with unintentional pregnancies. This imposes a cost to women that men don't have and thus may violate federal law.

The WaPo has a link for women to report any medical treatment problems they have experienced since Dobbs.
 

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