Abortion discussions - latest court cases

[tony]

But CA ranks higher than FL. So the idea that everyone is fleeing Blue states like CA to go to Red states like FL is not supported by the data.

What list are you going by? The one presented upthread has Florida at #3 in net migration and California #38.

Americans Moved to Low-Tax States in 2021

The pandemic has accelerated changes in the way we live and work, making it far easier for people to move—and they have. As states work to maintain their competitive advantage, they should pay attention to where people are moving, and try to understand why.

taxfoundation.org

This website suggests California is #47 is population growth (at a decline) in 2021.

And it's nothing to do with blue versus red when Florida remains a 50/50 split and Miami (and the other major cities) remaining blue. Orlando, for example, voted for Biden by 23 points. IMO it had everything to do with the state reopening way before most other places in the USA, with most businesses going back to 'normal' in September 2020. Many people who had the freedom to work from home then and even now saw bigger incentive to move to Florida, whether it be the lax rules or the lower taxes or the ability to live in the sun year-round with their new workplace policies. It's not as if a bunch of Trump loving loudmouths recently moved in and took over.

 

[susan6]

Back to abortion laws.....Indiana just passed a bill banning most abortions which will go into effect Sept 15.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/05/politics/indiana-state-house-abortion-bill/index.html
They do NOT want people to vote on this, having seen what happened in Kansas:

A House amendment also failed on Thursday that would have placed a non-binding question on the 2022 general election ballot as to whether abortion should remain legal in Indiana

And Georgians can claim a fetus as a dependent on their tax forms. No clue on how that's going to work, but it's a slippery slope.

 

[once_upon]

Should any of us still have questions about wanting to stop abortions or just a control woman issue - some states are trying pass laws to make contraceptives illegal.

That's a surefire way to increase the desire for abortions.

 

[Dobre]

Indiana becomes first state post-Roe to pass law banning most abortions

Indiana Gov. Eric Holcomb on Friday signed a bill that would ban most abortions -- the first state to pass a restrictive law against the procedure since Roe v. Wade was overturned earlier this summer.

www.cnn.com

----

My aunt says property in Florida is cheap compared to property in Hawaii or California.

True or not true? I know it has risen sharply in Florida over the past year (I've heard this from more than tony); but comparatively, is it still cheaper? I think this is why people here go to Florida. They are looking for warmth, sun, ocean, & palm trees; and Florida is the most affordable they can find.

I mean, most people don't move all the way to Florida from here; but the ones I know who have did so because they couldn't afford Hawaii.

This map says that the median home price in Florida is $100,000 less than even here in Oregon. Basically on par with Idaho. Only a 3rd the cost of a home in Hawaii and less than half the cost of one in California. The date on it is 2022.

Median Home Price by State 2023

(I also have an acquaintance moving to Florida & looking forward to voting against DeSantis).

 

[Allskate]

In case anyone wants to discuss abortion in a thread about abortion, here is an article about what is going on in Indiana. Very sad IMO:

Indiana becomes 1st state to approve abortion ban post Roe

Indiana on Friday became the first state in the nation to approve abortion restrictions since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, as the Republican governor quickly signed a near-total ban on the procedure shortly after lawmakers approved it. Victims of rape and incest would not be...

www.yahoo.com

This map says that the median home price in Florida is $100,000 less than even here in Oregon. Basically on par with Idaho. Only a 3rd the cost of a home in Hawaii and less than half the cost of one in California.

For most people, the affordability of housing depends in large part on what they earn, not just the price tag. For some, living in California can be more affordable than living somewhere else with much lower housing price tags. This is especially true if they aren't retired yet. (Florida is very popular with retirees. My grandparents, who never ever would have voted for DeSantis, retired to Florida for health reasons, not for political reasons.) Having the option of working remotely changes the calculus for a small minority people. Those people tend to earn more, and their moves to another city can drive up the cost of housing in such a city. If someone is looking for the most affordable place to live, though, even if they want to go to Florida, they are not going to choose Miami. And if they are looking for the most conservative place to live, they are not going to choose Miami.

It is not at all unusual for people to sell homes in states that are colder and take the equity from their houses and retire to warm places that cost less. Florida definitely is known for that. States like Arizona and Nevada are becoming more known for that. Some of those places might not seem cheap to the people who work there, but seem cheap to those who retire there. More people have retired than usual since COVID. I know someone who retired and moved to Florida where her siblings were living, but quickly decided she didn't like it there and left. I'm sure others are very happy with the weather and cost of living.

 

[Dobre]

In case anyone wants to discuss abortion in a thread about abortion, here is an article about what is going on in Indiana.

I posted it at the top of my post. Should have put the title in bold, I guess. Sometimes I'm too lazy.

 

[Allskate]

I posted it at the top of my post. Should have put the title in bold, I guess. Sometimes I'm too lazy.

Nah. My bad. I was quickly skimming the posts that were writing about Florida and didn't realize your post actually had a link that was on topic.

The two articles are actually from two different sources. Here's a third one. A majority of the Republicans actually wanted no exceptions, which does not reflect the beliefs of Republicans generally. As in much of the U.S., Indiana's legislators are to the right of the constituents. Eliminating 99% of abortions apparently was not enough for the majority of the Republican legislators:

Indiana adopts near-total abortion ban as governor signs SB 1 into law

Indiana's near-total abortion ban will take effect Sept. 15 after it passed both chambers of the General Assembly and was signed into law by the governor late Friday.

www.indystar.com

 

[once_upon]

Gifted article

Indiana Governor Signs First Post-Roe Abortion Ban, With Limited Exceptions https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/05/...FQAEbGTR5842U86tBdO7AHLVpblcMVM_80Zzqaj1dnnDU

I suggest every single ER in Indiana stock up on IV Lactated Ringers solution, as well as ample supply of other IV fluids. Double or Triple their supply of IV antibiotics and other immediate care for hemorrhaging women who underwent illegal backstreet abortions. The Red Cross should begin immediate and more aggressive campaigns for increasing blood supply and recruitment of repeat blood donors. They will need them.

Females of child bearing age should have some emergency cash available to purchase pregnancy tests - do not use cards or checks to purchase, or store reward cards or Amazon bulk delivery services. The government will track you down and ask for proof you are still pregnant.

 

[Dobre]

"Eli Lilly and Co.—among Indiana’s largest employers—on the state’s new near-total abortion ban: “Given this new law, we will be forced to plan for more employment growth outside our home state.”

The company's statement is attached here:

https://twitter.com/adamwren/status/1555894094244741120?cxt=HHwWgICwue3b0pcrAAAA

----

Then this is a separate article.

Biotech's women leaders decry US abortion bans: 'We will not stand by silently'

More than 70 women in biotech are lending their voices to the outcry of opposition to the Supreme Court’s decision to strike down Roe v. | More than 70 women in biotech are lending their voices to the outcry of opposition to the Supreme Court’s decision to strike down Roe v. Wade, casting...

www.fiercebiotech.com

 

[sk9tingfan]

Indiana has begun to evolve into a fascist state! "The inside of a woman's body is not her own"!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/06/indiana-abortion-ban-vote-quotes/

 

[sk9tingfan]

And now physicians are declining to work in the anti-abortion states:

A challenge for antiabortion states: Doctors reluctant to work there

 

[MacMadame]

In case anyone wants to discuss abortion in a thread about abortion,

Oops. My bad, will get back to it.

I suggest every single ER in Indiana stock up on IV Lactated Ringers solution, as well as ample supply of other IV fluids. Double or Triple their supply of IV antibiotics and other immediate care for hemorrhaging women who underwent illegal backstreet abortions. The Red Cross should begin immediate and more aggressive campaigns for increasing blood supply and recruitment of repeat blood donors. They will need them.

Will they, though? As I've said before, it's not 1973. We have Plan B, we have the internet. We have states where abortion is still legal. This means the bad stuff will be different bad stuff. Such as:

Females of child bearing age should have some emergency cash available to purchase pregnancy tests - do not use cards or checks to purchase, or store reward cards or Amazon bulk delivery services. The government will track you down and ask for proof you are still pregnant.

This is definitely something women didn't have to deal with in 1973. It's not that people didn't have credit cards. It's that CC companies hadn't figured out how to exploit that to the extent they do now.

Also, something I see now that I didn't see in 1973 is that prosecutors are aggressively looking to prosecute women for anything that even looks like abortion. Look at all the women with miscarriages that faced the law intruding on their grief to try to put them in prison.

This is why we know that for most of these people, this is not about saving "babies" but about punishing women.

"Eli Lilly and Co.—among Indiana’s largest employers—on the state’s new near-total abortion ban: “Given this new law, we will be forced to plan for more employment growth outside our home state.”

Wow.

I went to college in Indiana and our school had the Eli Lilly Library. They are such a force in the state that this stand is going to reverberate.

 

[Judy]

Should any of us still have questions about wanting to stop abortions or just a control woman issue - some states are trying pass laws to make contraceptives illegal.

That's a surefire way to increase the desire for abortions.

Wow. 😳

 

[Amy L]

As I've said before, it's not 1973. We have Plan B, we have the internet. We have states where abortion is still legal. This means the bad stuff will be different bad stuff.

There's also DNA testing now. Men having actual responsibility will change a lot of things. But of course there's a vote to ban child support in West Virginia so that men can't force women to get abortions over not wanting to pay.

I went to college in Indiana and our school had the Eli Lilly Library. They are such a force in the state that this stand is going to reverberate.

Mike Pence's terrible RFRA legislation got canceled when Indiana business owners threatened to leave. The same thing happening with Eli Lilly et. al. is all there is to hope for. Evangelicals love grifting for money more than they love punishing sexually active women.

 

[once_upon]

Will they, though? As I've said before, it's not 1973. We have Plan B, we have the internet. We have states where abortion is still legal. This means the bad stuff will be different bad stuff.

Some states are proposing no plan b and no internet shopping for plan b or face prosecution/jail time

This is definitely something women didn't have to deal with in 1973. It's not that people didn't have credit cards. It's that CC companies hadn't figured out how to exploit that to the extent they do now.

Uh no. I think the first credit card available to us was 1975. With his name only. I think I got my own in 1977, at least one that didn't need his signature and his income listed.

 

[susan6]

Females of child bearing age should have some emergency cash available to purchase pregnancy tests - do not use cards or checks to purchase, or store reward cards or Amazon bulk delivery services. The government will track you down and ask for proof you are still pregnant.

I would also suggest getting a burner phone (pay cash for it) that does not connect to your home wifi in any way. Any internet searches, texts, or transactions involving your reproductive system should be done on an untraceable phone.

Not surprised that Eli Lilly is concerned. I'm in Florida (yeah, back to DeathSantis-land) and our university has lost faculty hires and graduate admissions this past year because of his actions.

Voters should demand that states put abortion rights on the ballot, as Kansas did. Indiana flat-out refused to, so women's rights are being trampled by bills passed without voter input by a gerrymandered state congress. And ALL the red states have gerrymandered governments.

 

[once_upon]

Please remember, the Kansas vote was yes to change state constitution to make it possible for legislators restrict/make abortion illegal and the no vote was to prevent the state constition change. In simple terms, people made it more/only about abortion than how the anti abortion groups were trying to manipulate.

In Kansas to obtain an abortion, you must receive education on what abortion us, how the fetus is extracted or otherwise aborted (the education having been developed by anti abortion activists), undergo an ultrasound and view pictures of said ultrasound, have a mandatory 24 hour waiting period. If you are a minor a parent must approve/sign consent, even in the case of incest.

So for the moment abortion is legal, not easy to obtain especially with limited clinics and anti abortionists are not going to be waylaid by one vote. They are going to double down. Money is flowing into the state to restrict abortion even more.

Our work in keeping abortion legal is not done.

 

[alexikeguchi]

And now physicians are declining to work in the anti-abortion states:

A challenge for antiabortion states: Doctors reluctant to work there

After COVID and massive burnout, all levels of healthcare workers have extensive options to walk into dream jobs that were out of reach in the past. The high cost of liability coverage for OB has been a drag on recruitment and retention of specialists for a while, so new OB/Gyns can be even more particular over where they choose to practice. Why would any competent board certified or eligible physician or licensed nurse choose to work in an environment where every decision is second-guessed and there is significant civil and criminal liability? The so-called pro-life states will end up with outcomes even for desired pregnancies going in exactly in the opposite direction, but it will probably take some state senator's wife bleeding out for lack of a physician before anything is done. Thoughts and prayers.

Also, I just have to comment on the idiotic Indiana legislators who wanted a total ban and think that women will "take advantage" of the limited exceptions to save their lives; sure, women make up diagnoses of acute leukemia and congestive heart failure in the 16th week of pregnancy all the time .

 

[Dobre]

When I suggested that voters in states could create ballot measures like ours for keeping vote-by-mail, I was told that citizens in lots of states are not allowed to create citizen-initiated ballot measures. I assume this applies to ballot measures for reproductive rights & privacy as well.

I think maybe this is the list? It looks like only 26 states & D.C. have this ability for citizens to initiate their own measures or to veto a state law put into existence?

Ballot initiative

Ballotpedia: The Encyclopedia of American Politics

ballotpedia.org

(Interesting how this is so much of a western half of the country thing. I wonder what the history is behind that & if there will be a push to expand voters' rights in the eastern half of the country now?)

----

Here's a key for pro-choice voters & ballot measures in November elections:

https://twitter.com/ImSpeaking13/status/1555359832802304002?cxt=HHwWhIC9wd_h35UrAAAA

"California: Vote YES on Prop 1
Kentucky: Vote NO on Amd.2
Montana: Vote NO on LR-131
Vermont: Vote YES on Prop 5"

The ones in California & Vermont are meant to add pro-choice rights to their state constitutions. Montana has a right to privacy in its constitution. Republicans probably want to overturn that, but I don't know if that's part of the measure on their ballot.

I think Michigan should also have a ballot measure for protecting reproductive freedom. They already submitted the required number of signatures, but apparently it's not official that it will be on the ballot yet?

Doing this whole thing state-by-state feels as insufficient as the efforts to pass women's suffrage that way were.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

Why would any competent board certified or eligible physician or licensed nurse choose to work in an environment where every decision is second-guessed and there is significant civil and criminal liability?

Or live in a state where they can't get proper medical care for themselves and their families?

 

[sk9tingfan]

After COVID and massive burnout, all levels of healthcare workers have extensive options to walk into dream jobs that were out of reach in the past. The high cost of liability coverage for OB has been a drag on recruitment and retention of specialists for a while, so new OB/Gyns can be even more particular over where they choose to practice. Why would any competent board certified or eligible physician or licensed nurse choose to work in an environment where every decision is second-guessed and there is significant civil and criminal liability? The so-called pro-life states will end up with outcomes even for desired pregnancies going in exactly in the opposite direction, but it will probably take some state senator's wife bleeding out for lack of a physician before anything is done. Thoughts and prayers.

Also, I just have to comment on the idiotic Indiana legislators who wanted a total ban and think that women will "take advantage" of the limited exceptions to save their lives; sure, women make up diagnoses of acute leukemia and congestive heart failure in the 16th week of pregnancy all the time .

This applies to not just OB GYN's. but also, primary care physicians, etc. I tweeted to Senator Lankford of Oklahoma, who voted for travel restrictions for women to obtain abortions that he and his family be restricted to health care within his state. Note that Oklahoma is #48 in terms of health care quality.

 

[sk8pics]

Indiana has begun to evolve into a fascist state! "The inside of a woman's body is not her own"!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2022/08/06/indiana-abortion-ban-vote-quotes/

I don’t disagree with your outrage at all, but you misquoted the article. It actually quotes a legislator as saying,”The body inside of the mom’s body is not her body.”. It is still outrageous, but makes more sense than what you wrote.

 

[sk9tingfan]

The current status and use of "baby boxes"

Drop Box for Babies: Conservatives Promote a Way to Give Up Newborns Anonymously

After Roe, groups are seeking to expand safe haven laws, which allow women to surrender babies with minimal interference. But these laws pose their own problems.

www.nytimes.com

 

[PrincessLeppard]

This applies to not just OB GYN's. but also, primary care physicians, etc. I tweeted to Senator Lankford of Oklahoma, who voted for travel restrictions for women to obtain abortions that he and his family be restricted to health care within his state. Note that Oklahoma is #48 in terms of health care quality.

Yeah, our governor went out of state for his surgery, when we have world class hospitals right here in Omaha. But he was re-elected anyway because this state would vote for a potato if it had an R next to its name.

To be fair, the potato would be more effective.

 

[sk9tingfan]

Yeah, our governor went out of state for his surgery, when we have world class hospitals right here in Omaha. But he was re-elected anyway because this state would vote for a potato if it had an R next to its name.

To be fair, the potato would be more effective.

Yes, I used to work with some of the physicians from Creighton.

 

[BittyBug]

The current status and use of "baby boxes"

Drop Box for Babies: Conservatives Promote a Way to Give Up Newborns Anonymously

After Roe, groups are seeking to expand safe haven laws, which allow women to surrender babies with minimal interference. But these laws pose their own problems.

www.nytimes.com

As someone on the internet summarized, we are becoming a country where drop boxes are not good enough for ballots but they're just fine for babies.

 

[MacMadame]

Uh no. I think the first credit card available to us was 1975. With his name only. I think I got my own in 1977, at least one that didn't need his signature and his income listed.

Right. CC existed. But nothing like how they are now.

When I suggested that voters in states could create ballot measures like ours for keeping vote-by-mail, I was told that citizens in lots of states are not allowed to create citizen-initiated ballot measures. I assume this applies to ballot measures for reproductive rights & privacy as well.

Can legislators put them on? They can here in CA even though citizens can too.

 

[Dobre]

Can legislators put them on? They can here in CA even though citizens can too.

I assume so. I assume that is why Vermont has one on the ballot in November?

But the states that need protective ballot initiatives the most have Republican dominated legislatures.

 

[once_upon]

GOP WV Rep. Calls For Child Support Ban Because Making Men Pay Could 'Encourage' Abortion

Republican Chris Pritt suggested men should not have to pay child support because forcing men to support their children could "encourage" women to have abortions.

www.comicsands.com

Proof that all men need to be castrated

 

[allezfred]

rejection of the destructive forces of woke-ism and revisionist history.

Treating people with respect and knowing the truth is actually what you are rejecting. In other words, ethnic and other minorities know your place and don't get uppity.