Abortion discussions - latest court cases

Aussie Willy

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Allskate

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This is a state where abortion is legal BUT there is a 24 hour waiting period, a required ultrasound and showing the woman the ultrasound results, and required watching video.

It is a HUGE thing. Especially since Kansas is a state that provides abortion surrounded by states that don't.

I know you are very pro women's rights, but the conservative Bible belts states usually aren't. Before people say Kansas is not Bible belt, I've traveled in rural Kansas. If not Bible belt state it's trying hard and modeling itself after them
A friend of mine is from a small town in rural Kansas, and she went back there to raise her kids after her divorce. She was judged harshly for the divorce. Her daughter was treated terribly when she voted Democrat in a mock election in high school. Most counties like this voted "yes" yesterday. However, things were quite different in Lawrence, where she went to college. And the most populous counties overwhelmingly voted "no" yesterday. Kansas does have a Democrat as a governor, albeit a more conservative one.

AFAIK, the vote yesterday doesn't change the fact that there is a 24 hour waiting period, ultrasound results, etc. And there is no indication that the Kansas legislature wants to repeal these laws. It's not black or white. There are lots of people who would like to very significantly restrict abortion but allow it when the woman's life is in danger or, for example, when a ten year-old is raped and gets pregnant. (I think the Ohio/Indiana situation involving that poor girl is going to make it less likely that politicians will insist on no exceptions for abortion bans.)

My man Steve pointed out the voter turnout was over 900K. Over double previous primaries and nearly as high as the last two general elections. That was the key. Let's hope all those voters and more show up in November.
I watched Steve talk about the huge voter turnout. However, I didn't see him say that was the reason for the result. Obviously, if all the increased turnout had been with the most conservative Kansans, the numbers on the ballot initiative would have been different. But, the last I saw, more Republicans turned out than Democrats. There are pro-choice Republicans and there are Republicans who don't want total bans.

As Steve repeatedly pointed out, the percentage voting "no" far outnumbered the percentage who voted for Biden. I suspect that Democrats (and independents) had a larger surge (compared to the 2018 primaries) than the Republicans, but I also think that there were Republicans voting no as well and that is part of the reason for the degree of the "no" victory. I don't expect many of those Republicans to vote for Democrats in the fall. And the fall elections are critical, especially for the Senate. The Democrat voter turnout will be critical. Unfortunately, mid-terms usually go the party not in power and for so many people abortion is not the most important issue.

But the progressives don't think it's enough. Do they want a free abortion clinic on every corner? He's doing all he can do. Vote blue for enough Senate and House members to have a real majority and change the laws.
I think people just get frustrated and tend to blame whoever is in power. That's not just for abortion. Unfortunately, it's for things like gas prices and food prices as well. Biden doesn't control OPEC and cannot force companies to refine more gas instead of spending their money buying back stock or paying higher dividends. (Energy companies are seeing huge profits, not just huge revenues, and gas prices have surged around the world.) But, Biden will be blamed for gas prices and there are Democrats in Congress who probably are going to pay a price this fall, too.

The latest in Georgia - tax deductions for fetuses:
 
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MacMadame

Doing all the things
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I think all states deliberately write propositions, amendments, bond issues, etc hard to read, difficult to interpret.
Having been involved in writing by-laws, I would say that most of the time it is not deliberate. :lol:


But the progressives don't think it's enough. Do they want a free abortion clinic on every corner? He's doing all he can do. Vote blue for enough Senate and House members to have a real majority and change the laws.
:rolleyes:

First of all, it isn't enough. Making women wait any period of time, being forced to have medically unnecessary procedures, and then watch videos as if they are a child who doesn't know their own mind (and that contain numerous lies), is not okay. Neither is limiting abortion when the fetus isn't viable. Carrying a dead fetus to term or one that will be in enormous pain and die a few hours or days later is not okay.

That doesn't mean progressives don't realize that is all that is practical to get at this time. As far as I can tell, progressives are a lot more practical than some others on the left. We get what we can get and just work harder to get more later.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
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71,460
It wasn't just Democrats, and apparently many didn't vote down ballot, or up as the case may be. Extreme GOP candidates are likely to have a real problem in the general election. Every Democrat will hammer home who opposes choice. I didn't see Steve last night, but this morning after the dust settled
 

Allskate

Well-Known Member
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11,866
It wasn't just Democrats, and apparently many didn't vote down ballot, or up as the case may be. Extreme GOP candidates are likely to have a real problem in the general election. Every Democrat will hammer home who opposes choice.
On MSNBC just now, someone said that 20% of Republicans voted "no." Half of the "no" votes came from Republicans and independents. However, I don't think that this necessarily means that extreme GOP candidates will lose in November. There definitely were extremists who won their primaries last night. I think some of them may very well win. Not simply because of abortion but because of other issues as well. I'll be shocked if the House does not go red. A no on the constitutional amendment or even supporting Roe does not necessarily mean someone will vote for a Democrat.
 

Cachoo

Well-Known Member
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9,606
A friend of mine is from a small town in rural Kansas, and she went back there to raise her kids after her divorce. She was judged harshly for the divorce. Her daughter was treated terribly when she voted Democrat in a mock election in high school. Most counties like this voted "yes" yesterday. However, things were quite different in Lawrence, where she went to college. And the most populous counties overwhelmingly voted "no" yesterday. Kansas does have a Democrat as a governor, albeit a more conservative one.

AFAIK, the vote yesterday doesn't change the fact that there is a 24 hour waiting period, ultrasound results, etc. And there is no indication that the Kansas legislature wants to repeal these laws. It's not black or white. There are lots of people who would like to very significantly restrict abortion but allow it when the woman's life is in danger or, for example, when a ten year-old is raped and gets pregnant. (I think the Ohio/Indiana situation involving that poor girl is going to make it less likely that politicians will insist on no exceptions for abortion bans.)


I watched Steve talk about the huge voter turnout. However, I didn't see him say that was the reason for the result. Obviously, if all the increased turnout had been with the most conservative Kansans, the numbers on the ballot initiative would have been different. But, the last I saw, more Republicans turned out than Democrats. There are pro-choice Republicans and there are Republicans who don't want total bans.

As Steve repeatedly pointed out, the percentage voting "no" far outnumbered the percentage who voted for Biden. I suspect that Democrats (and independents) had a larger surge (compared to the 2018 primaries) than the Republicans, but I also think that there were Republicans voting no as well and that is part of the reason for the degree of the "no" victory. I don't expect many of those Republicans to vote for Democrats in the fall. And the fall elections are critical, especially for the Senate. The Democrat voter turnout will be critical. Unfortunately, mid-terms usually go the party not in power and for so many people abortion is not the most important issue.
On MSNBC just now, someone said that 20% of Republicans voted "no." Half of the "no" votes came from Republicans and independents. However, I don't think that this necessarily means that extreme GOP candidates will lose in November. There definitely were extremists who won their primaries last night. I think some of them may very well win. Not simply because of abortion but because of other issues as well. I'll be shocked if the House does not go red. A no on the constitutional amendment or even supporting Roe does not necessarily mean someone will vote for a Democrat.
Moderate Republicans in the state may support candidates who are far right but are fundamentally the same on agricultural and educational issues. But they might not appreciate the theocratic bullying and had a chance to express their opinion last night. We’ve seen enough wackadoodle crackpots in the legislature over the years to know that the right to choose must be protected from these people. And for once a coalition of Pubs, Dems and independent voters upended the planned abolition of abortion in Kansas. Kansas is still red. But you do see purple creeping in now. And I hope there is a blueprint to take the fight to other red states.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
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14,289
It wasn't just Democrats, and apparently many didn't vote down ballot
I think a number of pundits whose posts I read yesterday "forgot" that Independents exist & couldn't vote in the governor's race anyway. (They might well have voted for non-partisan issues & candidates at the local level, etc.) Those posters only referenced the governor's race & the measure.

Nonetheless, the abortion measure pretty clearly brought out the extra-high turnout.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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A no on the constitutional amendment or even supporting Roe does not necessarily mean someone will vote for a Democrat.
But if the choice is between a GOP extremist or a Democrat, they may very well not vote at all.
 

Allskate

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But if the choice is between a GOP extremist or a Democrat, they may very well not vote at all.
I hope so. That is likely to be the case for some people, especially women. And wise campaigns will focus on abortion rights being about freedom and liberty. My point was that being pro-choice and supporting Roe does not necessarily mean someone will vote for a Democrat. I also think that it does not necessarily mean that they will not vote at all. A voter can support people who are right-wing extremists and are anti-abortion even if that voter is pro-choice. I personally know someone who is pro-choice but who also is a big Trumper. She and her hubby totally buy anything that Fox and the like sell. For plenty of people who are pro-choice, that is not their priority. I also have a friend who lives in politically split household. She went to her first protest ever when Roe was overturned, but she was going to vote Democrat anyway. Her husband's priority is not abortion rights. It is gun rights, so he always votes Republican. I just think it's a leap for anyone to assume that the vote on the Kansas abortion measure necessarily translates to votes for pro-choice politicians in November or that it translates to politicians not banning a lot of abortions through legislation or other measures.

But, I would love to be wrong and for the House to remain blue and for a bunch of right wing extremist and anti-choice candidates in state and federal elections to go down in defeat, with abortion rights preserved and reinstated across the country.
 

Louis

Private citizen
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18,347
I think it's great that the people of Kansas have spoken directly. Not an unelected Supreme Court, not politicians who fail to represent the views of their constituencies, not any intermediary. I understand the argument that human rights should not be up for referendum, but that applies equally to both sides of the abortion debate depending on one's perspective. The referedum was a really good idea in this instance, given that public opinion is so different from politicians' will, and hopefully settles the issue once and for all. The people have spoken. We need more of this, and not just on abortion.
 

MacMadame

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This article infuriates me.


It's not that I don't think people who are against abortion shouldn't be able to open clinics that help women stay pregnant. But they need to be upfront about who they are and what their goals are. And they absolutely should not be allowed to practice medicine without a license or lie about science and healthcare matters. That's dangerous.
 

Dobre

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14,289
Oh, I think DeSantis should definitely make abortion a big deal before the election . . .

Why Florida’s Ron DeSantis suspended an elected state attorney​

An elected prosecutor in Florida said he wouldn't enforce abortion bans, so Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis replaced the state attorney with someone else.


I realize he doesn't give two figs about being the governor of Florida. He wants to spend the next two years running for president.


Response from the state attorney, Andrew Warren

 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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I would hate to think what Death Santis will do if he becomes President. But it isn't good.
 

mtnskater

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I mean, surely the Americans wouldn't be stupid enough to vote for deSantis as President.

...oh, I'm pretty sure that's what we all said about Trump, too.
Well….just a reminder that a majority of Americans voted against Trump in both elections. It was the arcane electoral college that gives disproportionate power to rural states that put him over the top the first time (barely). The electoral college B.S. makes me quake in my boots though because its been a modern trend thatRepublican presidential candidates are not winning the popular vote but squeaking out electoral college wins.
 

caseyedwards

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I mean, surely the Americans wouldn't be stupid enough to vote for deSantis as President.

...oh, I'm pretty sure that's what we all said about Trump, too.
American People are moving to Florida in record numbers. They are already voting for him!
 

jenny12

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Well….just a reminder that a majority of Americans voted against Trump in both elections. It was the arcane electoral college that gives disproportionate power to rural states that put him over the top the first time (barely). The electoral college B.S. makes me quake in my boots though because its been a modern trend thatRepublican presidential candidates are not winning the popular vote but squeaking out electoral college wins.

This is a really important point and why I’m always scared that someone like DeSantis or some other Trump wannabe could potentially win. The electoral college along with unlimited money in politics unfortunately makes it possible for people like this to get in office.
 
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Louis

Private citizen
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American People are moving to Florida in record numbers. They are already voting for him!

Amen to this. People are voting with their feet and moving away from high-tax, woke, crime-ridden hellholes like California and New York to high-growth, low-tax, freedom-loving Florida (and other similar GOP-controlled states like Idaho and South Carolina). DeSantis has spoken the truth about covid all along. He was one of the only people who looked at a balanced cost-benefit analysis and realized that it didn't compute. He took a enormous risk and was right. I know this is a foreign concept to most people, but I think we should vote for politicians who make good decisions regardless of party. DeSantis has a track record of making very good decisions; Biden and Newsom have made disastrous ones. DeSantis needs to do for the entire U.S. what he has done for Florida - high growth, low taxes, small government, and rejection of the destructive forces of woke-ism and revisionist history. I don't agree with him on all issues, but he has governed the best performing large state in the country and deserves a serious look for President. All of the other states with high growth are also Republican-controlled.
 

Pink Cats

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Amen to this. People are voting with their feet and moving away from high-tax, woke, crime-ridden hellholes like California and New York to high-growth, low-tax, freedom-loving Florida (and other similar GOP-controlled states like Idaho and South Carolina). DeSantis has spoken the truth about covid all along. He was one of the only people who looked at a balanced cost-benefit analysis and realized that it didn't compute. He took a enormous risk and was right. I know this is a foreign concept to most people, but I think we should vote for politicians who make good decisions regardless of party. DeSantis has a track record of making very good decisions; Biden and Newsom have made disastrous ones. DeSantis needs to do for the entire U.S. what he has done for Florida - high growth, low taxes, small government, and rejection of the destructive forces of woke-ism and revisionist history. I don't agree with him on all issues, but he has governed the best performing large state in the country and deserves a serious look for President. All of the other states with high growth are also Republican-controlled.

Well apparently Louis is wrong again, Best States for Growth,

Rank State GDP Growth Growth of Young Population Net Migration
1 Idaho 3 6 1
2 Washington 1 7 6
3 Utah 2 1 10

Florida ranks 9th over all, and comes in 32 for Growth of Young Population

California rants 6th in GDP growth which is higher than Florida
 

mtnskater

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American People are moving to Florida in record numbers. They are already voting for him!
Hmmm. I just had married couple friends move from Colorado to Florida this week. And they are looking forward to voting AGAINST DeSantis!

And my friends didn’t move to Florida because Colorado is a crime ridden hell hole run by Democrats. They moved because one of them developed heart problems and felt better at lower altitude.
 

Pink Cats

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As for crime Florida doesn't do all that well either.

That bastion of all things liberal Alaska has the highest crime ranking and Maine has the lowest. The states with the highest Violent Crime are all firmly in Republican territory with high poverty rates. Now could there possible be a link between Republican policies high poverty rates and high crime rates?

Number State Imprisonment Rate adults per 100,000 Ranking Most Dangerous city Poverty rate Ranking Total 2018 murders Ranking Violent Crime rate per 100,000 people Ranking
50 Maine 165 2 Augusta 11.60% 19 24 7 112.1 1
49 Vermont 222 4 Rutland 11% 14 10 1 172 2
48 New Hampshire 253 6 Manchester 7.60% 1 21 6 173.2 3
47 Virginia 560 35 Portsmouth 10.70% 12 391 34 200 4
46 Connecticut 338 13 Hartford 10.40% 10 83 18 207.4 5
45 New Jersey 278 7 Camden 9.50% 5 286 31 208.1 6
44 Kentucky 682 43 Covington 16.90% 45 244 30 211.9 7
43 Wyoming 560 34 Cheyenne 11.10% 17 13 3 212.2 8
42 Rhode Island 212 3 Woonsocket 12.90% 27 16 4 219.1 9
41 Minnesota 249 5 Minneapolis 9.60% 6 106 19 220.4 10
40 Idaho 601 40 Garden City 11.80% 20 35 9 227.1 11
39 Utah 292 8 South Salt Lake 9% 3 60 15 233.1 12
38 Mississippi 812 48 Brookhaven 19.70% 50 171 23 234.4 13
37 Hawaii 305 10 Honolulu 8.80% 2 36 10 248.6 14
36 Iowa 372 16 N/A 11.20% 18 54 14 250.1 15
35 Ohio 567 36 Cleveland 13.90% 35 564 42 279.9 16
34 North Dakota 295 9 Williston 10.70% 11 18 5 280.6 17
33 Nebraska 362 15 Omaha 11% 15 44 11 284.8 18
32 Oregon 461 25 Portland 12.60% 25 82 17 285.5 19
31 West Virginia 492 27 Beckley 17.80% 47 67 16 289.9 20
30 Wisconsin 501 29 Milwaukee 11% 16 176 24 295.4 21
29 Pennsylvania 473 26 McKeesport 12.20% 23 784 46 306 22
28 Washington 336 12 Tacoma 10.30% 9 236 29 311.5 23
27 Georgia 666 42 East Point 14.30% 39 642 45 326.6 24
26 Massachusetts 150 1 Fall River 10% 8 136 21 338.1 25
25 New York 314 11 Newburgh 13.60% 33 562 41 350.5 26
24 Montana 447 22 Helena 13% 29 34 8 374.1 27
23 North Carolina 439 21 N/A 14% 36 628 44 377.6 28
22 Indiana 509 31 Indianapolis 13.10% 30 438 36 382.3 29
21 Florida 582 37 Florida City 13.60% 34 1,107 48 384.9 30
20 Colorado 452 24 Pueblo 9.60% 7 210 27 397.2 31
19 Illinois 418 18 Danville 12.10% 22 884 47 404.1 32
18 South Dakota 601 39 Rapid City 13.10% 31 12 2 404.7 33
17 Texas 746 46 Bellmead 14.90% 40 1,322 49 410.9 34
16 Delaware 533 32 Wilmington 12.50% 24 48 13 423.6 35
15 Kansas 439 20 Wichita 12% 21 113 20 439 36
14 California 424 19 Emeryville 12.80% 26 1,739 50 447.4 37
13 Michigan 508 30 Muskegon Heights 14.10% 38 551 40 449.4 38
12 Oklahoma 931 49 Shawnee 15.60% 43 206 26 466.1 39
11 Maryland 407 17 Baltimore 9% 4 490 37 468.7 40
10 Arizona 740 45 Tucson 14% 37 369 32 474.9 41
9 South Carolina 494 28 Greenwood 15.30% 41 392 35 488.3 42
8 Missouri 687 44 St. Louis 13.20% 32 607 43 502.1 43
7 Alabama 626 41 Anniston 16.80% 44 383 33 519.6 44
6 Louisiana 942 50 Opelousas 18.60% 48 530 39 537.5 45
5 Nevada 584 38 North Las Vegas 12.90% 28 202 25 541.1 46
4 Arkansas 781 47 West Memphis 17.20% 46 216 28 543.6 47
3 Tennessee 553 33 Memphis 15.30% 42 498 38 623.7 48
2 New Mexico 448 23 Gallup 19.50% 49 167 22 856.6 49
1 Alaska 343 14 Anchorage 10.90% 13 47 12 885 50
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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13,275
CT not good at 40, but ahead of NY, NJ, & RI. However, under current Gov. Lamont (D), we are up from 49 or 50 under governors Rell and Rowland (both R) and Malloy (D)., Our deficit is significantly down and our bond rating is up.

Looking at the table, it seems to me more a function of particular administration than party.
 

tony

The older, the crankier
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Well apparently Louis is wrong again, Best States for Growth,

Rank State GDP Growth Growth of Young Population Net Migration
1 Idaho 3 6 1
2 Washington 1 7 6
3 Utah 2 1 10

Florida ranks 9th over all, and comes in 32 for Growth of Young Population

California rants 6th in GDP growth which is higher than Florida
I live in Miami and have experienced the influx of population from the minute Covid started, especially from NYC (it's documented all over the internet), he's not wrong. A lot of people were moving here (or Tampa or Orlando) from all over the US when their jobs went remote and the state reopened shortly after the pandemic began.

And as I mentioned months ago, Miami itself has felt the #1 shift in raise in rent and housing prices since Covid started, and it's by a huge margin.


If rising rents were a race, Miami would be crushing the competition.

Miami rents climbed 45.8 percent in May compared to last May, according to a newly released report from Realtor.com. Miami’s annual rent growth was a stand-out; its closest rival was Orlando at 28.4 percent. Nationwide, rents increased an average of 15.5 percent.
My rent went from $2285 to $3700+, for example.

But there's a little bit of push against Desantis. People simply do not get paid enough to live in these types of conditions, and immigrant families who are sometimes the loudest cheerleaders for him here in Miami-Dade are being forced out of the area in favor of young tech professionals, crypto success stories (there are so many of them), and OnlyFans stars.


As someone who has worked in nightlife and lived a fairly comfortable life since moving to Miami, my change of career to entry-level healthcare professional will not even give me enough salary to get a 1 bedroom apartment on my own in 95% of the available options, as salary has to be anywhere from 2.8 to 3.2+ times the rental price. It can't go on like this forever, but for now if people leave, there are plenty more people to come fill the vacancies from elsewhere.
 
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susan6

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4,242
I live in Miami and have experienced the influx of population from the minute Covid started, especially from NYC (it's documented all over the internet), he's not wrong. A lot of people were moving here (or Tampa or Orlando) from all over the US when their jobs went remote and the state reopened shortly after the pandemic began.

And as I mentioned months ago, Miami itself has felt the #1 shift in raise in rent and housing prices since Covid started, and it's by a huge margin.



My rent went from $2285 to $3700+, for example.

But there's a little bit of push against Desantis. People simply do not get paid enough to live in these types of conditions, and immigrant families who are sometimes the loudest cheerleaders for him here in Miami-Dade are being forced out of the area in favor of young tech professionals, crypto success stories (there are so many of them), and OnlyFans stars.


As someone who has worked in nightlife and lived a fairly comfortable life since moving to Miami, my change of career to entry-level healthcare professional will not even give me enough salary to get a 1 bedroom apartment on my own in 95% of the available options, as salary has to be anywhere from 2.8 to 3.2+ times the rental price. It can't go on like this forever, but for now if people leave, there are plenty more people to come fill the vacancies from elsewhere.
Charlie Crist is essentially campaigning on this, but I'm not sure what his plan will be to address it. Landlords will charge whatever they can get away with.
My big question for Miami is....is there a plan to deal with the millions of climate refugees that will result in the next 20 years or so when a lot of that city ends up underwater?
 

MacMadame

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51,563
I live in Miami and have experienced the influx of population from the minute Covid started, especially from NYC (it's documented all over the internet), he's not wrong. A lot of people were moving here (or Tampa or Orlando) from all over the US when their jobs went remote and the state reopened shortly after the pandemic began.
So what is your explanation for why the data doesn't support this, at least as a state-wide trend?
 

tony

The older, the crankier
Messages
13,537
So what is your explanation for why the data doesn't support this, at least as a state-wide trend?
What? All the data does suggest Florida had a huge population growth particularly in the early days of Covid, but a census more recently dared to claim Miami-Dade lost population. That's honestly laughable, as inventory went from plentiful in the last few years to many properties being rented within 24 hours of listing.

Where are you seeing that this isn't a state-wide trend?


Florida grew by 211,196 residents from July 1, 2020, to July 1, 2021, to a population of 21,781,128, the census estimates show. Texas grew by an estimated 310,288 residents to a population of 29,527,941.

California continued to have the nation’s largest population at 39,237,836, though it lost a net 261,902 residents from July 1, 2020, to July 1, 2021. New York saw the largest decline of 319,020 residents, with its population dropping below 20 million, according to the census bureau.

ETA:
 
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MacMadame

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But CA ranks higher than FL. So the idea that everyone is fleeing Blue states like CA to go to Red states like FL is not supported by the data.
 

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