Abortion discussions - latest court cases

clairecloutier

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Oklahoma just passed it's Texas-style (but even more draconian) total abortion ban: illegal from fertilization. Allows private citizens to sue abortion providers.
An OB-GYN in Alabama has already seen the effects of anti-abortion laws. She's seen women in her state who come to hospitals with a miscarriage in need of medical help get turned away. As this criminalization of abortion progresses in the US, doctors will not care if you present in the ER with blood gushing out of you and running onto the floor. They cannot get involved with anything that may be remotely illegal.
A lot of women are going to die.


This enrages me so much. Particularly as someone who has been through a late miscarriage. I can't even imagine having to deal with this s*** at one of the most stressful moments of your life. :mad:

ETA: Another personal story that illustrates the insanity of all this: https://slate.com/technology/2022/0...turn-abortion.html?via=rss_socialflow_twitter

I wonder if women could actually sue their states, legally, if they suffer damage to their health or fertility due to these psycho laws. What about class-action lawsuits?? :unsure:
 
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once_upon

Believer in woman's right to own healthcare decisi
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Probably when class action suits are brought by the families of women like her that died, we might might being the word, see some change.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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The ACLU is working on some of this too. They have been preparing for a while. And have some lawsuits in the pipeline. They have a Reproductive Freedom Project that has been around for decades. Here is their page that lists all the cases they have going:


ETA that this issue with miscarriages being criminalized is the sort of thing I was thinking of when I said it won't be like 1973, but we'll have different problems.
 
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once_upon

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Yeah, the miscarriages and stillbirth issues hits hard for me.

Two miscarriages-scheduled for D/C but 18 hours before procedures my body expelled contents of amniotic sac. One stillbirth which required drugs to deliver a dead baby.
 

quartz

scratching at the light
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My mom had stillborn twins at 6 months, and had to deliver them - she was 19 years old. A niece had to deliver a nearly full term stillborn son. I’ve had two very early miscarriages. I think the official stat is about 15-20% of pregnancies end in miscarriage, but I think there are so many more that women just think oh, that’s a heavier than normal, weird period, when it’s actually a miscarriage.
 

once_upon

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The idiotic anti abortionists really do not understand, nor do they want to, there are many, many, many reasons for abortion. They have this belief that the only reason for abortion is because women don't want consequences of sex. They can't envision anything else, don't want to envision that. They are just blind to what reproductive issues are faced.

Not all babies are the Gerber baby pictures of the past.

OK's newly written/passed law allows abortion in case of rape. EXCEPT the rape must be documented/reported to police before the pregnancy is known to qualify for that exception. Statistics estimate that only 20-40% of rapes are reported (I find that estimate to be too high).

As to the argument that if a person can be charged with manslaughter or murder of an unborn fetus - it's extremely difficult to prosecute successfully those cases and as I understand it, viability is part of the proof needed by the prosecution.
 

Allskate

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I wonder if women could actually sue their states, legally, if they suffer damage to their health or fertility due to these psycho laws. What about class-action lawsuits??
I think states that are banning abortion very quickly will enact legislation that insulates the state and the medical providers from liability.
he ACLU is working on some of this too. They have been preparing for a while. And have some lawsuits in the pipeline. They have a Reproductive Freedom Project that has been around for decades. Here is their page that lists all the cases they have going:
So many of these cases are directly or indirectly based on Roe and Casey. State constitutions may be of assistance in some circumstances, but they are unlikely to help if the Republicans regain control and pass a national ban on abortion. I'm sure that organizations like the ACLU will come up with some new legal theories, but it's going to be challenging and some of these cases may deal only with very narrow circumstances such as circumstances where the fetus never will be viable.

I can imagine that there is going to be a bigger shortage of obstetricians, especially in states with these restrictive laws. Who would want to work under these circumstances? And how much is malpractice insurance going to cost? What if a state makes an exception for the life of the mother but, in an effort not to be charged for "murder," a doctor waits too long or makes the wrong call and ends up costing the woman her life?

There may also end up being a shortage of fertility/IVF specialists in some states.
 

once_upon

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I can imagine that there is going to be a bigger shortage of obstetricians, especially in states with these restrictive laws. Who would want to work under these circumstances? And how much is malpractice insurance going to cost? What if a state makes an exception for the life of the mother but, in an effort not to be charged for "murder," a doctor waits too long or makes the wrong call and ends up costing the woman her life
Malpractice insurance costs for obstetricians AVERAGED $150,000 annually in 2018. Cant begin to imagine what it will be after anti-abortion laws go into place.
 

MacMadame

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As to the argument that if a person can be charged with manslaughter or murder of an unborn fetus - it's extremely difficult to prosecute successfully those cases and as I understand it, viability is part of the proof needed by the prosecution.
I don't know of any cases where the mother lived but the fetus died, that someone was prosecuted for murder. All the cases I know about are where the murder victim was pregnant. And this caused an enhancement to the crime of murder, like carrying a gun during a robbery or an assault also being a hate crime. To me, that makes sense. You've destroyed a potential human and that makes it worse. But prosecuting someone for murder/manslaughter for causing a miscarriage does not.
 

once_upon

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I don't know of any cases where the mother lived but the fetus died, that someone was prosecuted for murder. All the cases I know about are where the murder victim was pregnant. And this caused an enhancement to the crime of murder, like carrying a gun during a robbery or an assault also being a hate crime. To me, that makes sense. You've destroyed a potential human and that makes it worse. But prosecuting someone for murder/manslaughter for causing a miscarriage does not.
George W Bush signed into law the Violence to the Unborn, which basically states that anyone other than the expectant woman seeking medical care for abortion can be charged with manslaughter or murder. I'm not sure about any cases prosecuted under that law which would not be associated with the death of the expectant women. But it is possible.

 

Susan1

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" “I am here to support the SAFE Act because it would protect adolescents, like I once was, from having irreversible medical interventions before they have the chance to mature and understand themselves in a more complex way,” she said."

But they'll make them have babies?
 

once_upon

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This is a bit concerning when we consider possible pregnancies in young girls. Children becoming pregnant at an early age. The article talks about early onset - in some cases as young as 7 or 8. There is no way a body that young could bear a child. Nor should they. Rape, incest, innocent "exploratory" games of doctor and no knowledge of sexual reproduction. We should all be concerned, especially if abortion rights are overturned.


 

dewey

Active Member
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128
A cousin of mine and His wife found out in the 6th month of a very wanted pregnancy that the baby had anacephalia, which is the absence of a brain and is incompatible with life. Their doctor gave them the choice of continuing the pregnancy and letting nature take its course or inducing labor. They decided that they could not cope with the agony of continuing the pregnancy while knowing the inevitable result and chose to induce. They held a funeral and burial for the baby. My point is that at every turn in this most agonizing time in their lives, they were given scientifically correct information followed by the freedom to choose how they proceeded without meddling from lawmakers or activists. There are laws and planned laws, many based on incorrect information, that would have taken a way these choices and forced them to continue the pregnancy not knowing when it would end and risking the complications that can arise in a late term miscarriage.
 

once_upon

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This is a bit concerning when we consider possible pregnancies in young girls. Children becoming pregnant at an early age. The article talks about early onset - in some cases as young as 7 or 8. There is no way a body that young could bear a child. Nor should they. Rape, incest, innocent "exploratory" games of doctor and no knowledge of sexual reproduction. We should all be concerned, especially if abortion rights are overturned.


This is more alarming when you look at some of the hypothesized reasons for this and racial groups. There is some indication that Africian American girls have higher incidence of early puberty. Obesity may play a factor. Hormone exposure - example might be contain in food.

Looking at rape statistics 12.4% of women who experience rape, reported their first sexual assault/rape occurred before age 10 and 30% said between age 11-17. Less than 10% of those rapes were perpetuated by strangers.

Look at the Oklahoma law which will allow abortions in case of rape, if the rape was reported at the time it happened.

If you are under 17 and most certainly under 10 and your rapist is a family member or known person to you and your family, you are probably not going to have the knowledge or means to report it.
 

MacMadame

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" “I am here to support the SAFE Act because it would protect adolescents, like I once was, from having irreversible medical interventions before they have the chance to mature and understand themselves in a more complex way,” she said."

But they'll make them have babies?
There is no gender-affirming care given to minors that is permanent. I really, really hate it when people use their own bad experiences to deny choices to others.
 

Allskate

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I wonder if all the other Catholics who have "sinned" are being denied communion. I don't just mean the publicly known sinners like some of the abusive priests. Every Catholic woman I know has used birth control. I can imagine those priests learn a lot in confession.

 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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I wonder if all the other Catholics who have "sinned" are being denied communion. I don't just mean the publicly known sinners like some of the abusive priests. Every Catholic woman I know has used birth control. I can imagine those priests learn a lot in confession.

Absolutely thrilled at the Arch Bishop. She has been very public in her opinion.

FYI “After numerous attempts to speak with Speaker Pelosi to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking, I have determined that she is not to be admitted to Holy Communion,” Cordileone wrote in a tweet.

The church was well within their purview. Abortion is a mortal sin. Absent a confession and absolution with a promise to sin no more (on that issue) left the church with no choice.

As to all Catholics who sin. Slippery slope there. Catholics with mortal sins may not receive communion. Those who do not confess and ask for absolution are not Catholics in good standing. In other words..........they are not practicing Catholics, and should not take communion.

Mortal sin also called cardinal sin, in Roman Catholic theology, the gravest of sins, representing a deliberate turning away from God and destroying charity (love) in the heart of the sinner.


“However, this is simply an application of Church teaching. One would have to demonstrate that a person’s actions in following Church teaching is explicitly for a political purpose in order to justify the accusation of ‘weaponizing’ the Eucharist,” Cordileone wrote.

And here is a look into Nancy's reality (remember the hair dresser at the beginning of Covid?

Pelosi said last month that the controversy over her support for abortion rights “really gets me burned up in case you didn’t notice, because again I’m very Catholic, devout, practicing, all of that. They would like to throw me out. But I’m not going because I don’t want to make their day.”

Sorry, Nance - you are not a devote practicing Catholic. Simple, really. If you don't follow the rules, you don't get to claim to be a devote catholic. Not difficult.

On the side of the Jews - a child is not a life until it takes a first breath.

And, to claim to be an Observant Jew:

a Jew who adheres faithfully to the principles and practices of traditional Judaism as evidenced chiefly by a devotion to and study of the Torah, daily synagogue attendance if possible, and strict observance of the Sabbath, religious festivals, holy days, and the dietary laws.

Think of it as a club. You cannot be a member if you are not willing to follow the rules of the club. And why would you claim to be? There is something to ponder. It is called lying for some purpose. Some personal gain.
 
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BittyBug

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@AxelAnnie, as a Catholic, I'm going to call bull sh!t on your analysis. The Roman Catholic Church is led by the Pope, and Pope Francis has specifically said that no one should be denied communion. It is the San Francisco Archbishop who is not being a devout Catholic, because he is not following the Pope's direction.

There is an ongoing rebellion within the Catholic Church in the U.S. against the Vatican. They preach against being a cafeteria Catholic (i.e., choosing which tenets of the faith to follow and which to ignore), yet they themselves do the very same by not accepting the direction of the Vatican. I know that conservative Catholics in the U.S. don't like the Pope because he's too liberal for them, but the Pope is the Pope, and if they can't follow the Pope, they should leave the church.

Gift link: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/05/20/...h-Ny6mm1vjgxeRMhLZTjRqVIOGCbvo&smid=url-share

It was the latest sign of the growing rift within the church between conservative American bishops and the Vatican.

The Vatican has warned against denying communion to politicians supportive of abortion rights. Pope Francis has preached that communion “is not the reward of saints, but the bread of sinners.”
 

once_upon

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The Catholic Church is archaic. I dont need some old man declaring he is my gateway to God to tell me what kind of relationship I have with God.

I get that the Eucharist is sacred, but I don't need a priest to invite me to Christ's table and give me "permission" to take part of the salvation that is given freely by God. Certainly not by a group of men who purport to be Godly yet are abusing young men and women. Thank Goodness my denomination declares an open table and declares it is me that makes my relationship right between me and God.

The God I believe in allows me to pray directly to they. Allows me to have compassion for women. Allows me to confess any transgressions to them directly.

The Bible as we know it, was complied by men, who selected which text/letters to be included. Note there are none in the New Testament written by women, even though we know there were many women disciples and many influential letters by women. Most of those books are heavily influenced or written by Paul (Saul) who really didn't have a high opinion of women. Uh...women submit to your husband bullshit. Most of the [email protected] written by Paul? Yeah doesn't really follow the Jewish man who was known as Jesus.

Get over your righteousness.
 

MacMadame

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Conservative Christians, both Catholic and Protestant, are deliberately ignoring the tenants of their faith to justify doing whatever it is they want to do, often punishing people who disagree with their conservative politics, but pretending it's about following God.
 

Susan1

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Absolutely thrilled at the Arch Bishop. She has been very public in her opinion.

FYI “After numerous attempts to speak with Speaker Pelosi to help her understand the grave evil she is perpetrating, the scandal she is causing, and the danger to her own soul she is risking, I have determined that she is not to be admitted to Holy Communion,” Cordileone wrote in a tweet.

The church was well within their purview. Abortion is a mortal sin. Absent a confession and absolution with a promise to sin no more (on that issue) left the church with no choice.

As to all Catholics who sin. Slippery slope there. Catholics with mortal sins may not receive communion. Those who do not confess and ask for absolution are not Catholics in good standing. In other words..........they are not practicing Catholics, and should not take communion.

Mortal sin also called cardinal sin, in Roman Catholic theology, the gravest of sins, representing a deliberate turning away from God and destroying charity (love) in the heart of the sinner.


Scroll down for a list. No Catholic I have ever met would be eligible to receive communion ever unless they went to confession immediately before Mass.
 

once_upon

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Scroll down for a list. No Catholic I have ever met would be eligible to receive communion ever unless they went to confession immediately before Mass.
The few times I attended Mass with my college roommate, or attended a wedding or funeral that included Mass, it seemed it would never end.

Can you imagine everyone needing to do confession and receiving absolution just before receiving Eucharist?
 

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