Abortion discussions - latest court cases

ЭPiKUilyam

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Question: I have forgotten, what is your personal feeling about abortion? Should viability guide / shape the decision? (I am not talking about the health of the mother or child.)
My personal feeling is that the decision should be left to the pregnant woman alone. Bringing a life into this world when you don't want it or can't afford to have it does not help society, IMO. Consider this situation for a couple that I am friends with: Both parents in their mid/late-40s, married over 20 years, oldest in college, youngest senior in HS. Wife had been having spotty/irregular periods for as long as she can remember and then found out she was pregnant at 46. Neither parent wanted another child, their lives were set, retirements set, children almost out of school. Due to her age she had an amniocentesis, which revealed numerous anomalies. As a family, the children and parents decided that an abortion was the right thing to do for their family.

Now in Texas, this isn't legal. This family would be forced to have a handicapped child, too bad, so sad. That is just wrong. Leave the family planning to the family involved. That is my personal feeling about abortion. And I would never say to someone that they should abstain from sex if they aren't prepared to have a child every time they have sex. Seriously? People think like that?
 
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Aussie Willy

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Where else would the law be tested? It has already been to the Supremes, and they are letting it stand.
The $10K bounty is simply a proposal at this point. He has already said he did the abortion. Little late to un-ring that bell.

Braid is 76. I would suspect he will simply plead Nolo Contendre: . no contest plea or “nolo contendre” plea does simply mean that you do not wish to contest the charges against you. Technically, it is not an admission of guilt. However, depending on the type of plea bargain or sentence being imposed, a no contest can be the equivalent of a guilty plea.

Question: I have forgotten, what is your personal feeling about abortion? Should viability guide / shape the decision? (I am not talking about the health of the mother or child.)

Someone up-thread asked if I knew anyone who had an abortion at 36 weeks. The closest I know is my stepdaughter who had her third abortion at 29 weeks.

My youngest is 41....so this is a long time ago. A woman across the street from me had a premature birth. Now remember, there were no ultrasounds. My step-son saw the baby in the incubator. It was just mindblowing to me that he had seen what I was carrying.
My personal feelings about abortion if you haven't already gathered by my posts is that it is a woman's choice. First and foremost. No one, no matter who they are, have the right to tell other women what to do about their body. That is it in a nutshell. I am not going to moralise or judge those who decide to make that choice. None of my business. I do not place timelines on it.

As for the law, laws can always be tested by people breaking them. Particularly when something such as this is such a bad law. This law creates an environment that allows people to sue individuals for no reason other than they don't like abortion. And they go after ANYONE who has had some role in assisting an abortion. It does not take into account all the practical considerations of that. The Supreme Court just decided not to intervene so the law came into effect. They have made no judgement on it yet. So it has actually not be tested by the Supreme Court.

It is also bad law because it also is invades someone privacy in that a person accusing someone of assisting has to know that a woman has actually had an abortion. What about a woman who has a miscarriage? Can she be accused of having an abortion because she attended a clinic where one moment she was pregnant and the next moment she wasn't? It does not take into account unviable fetuses and that could be a reason why a woman needs abortion.

But the stupidest thing about this law is it still does not stop abortion. Apart from driving abortion underground which puts women's lives directly in danger, people will find a way around it. You do realise on TikTok there are people in other states where abortion is freely available inviting "cousins" to come and visit them and they will take them where ever they need to go. Women can stock up on RU486 pills. People will find a way around it.
 
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AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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My personal feelings about abortion if you haven't already gathered by my posts is that it is a woman's choice. First and foremost. No one, no matter who they are, have the right to tell other women what to do about their body. That is it in a nutshell. I am not going to moralise or judge those who decide to make that choice. None of my business. I do not place timelines on it.

As for the law, laws can always be tested by people breaking them. Particularly when something such as this is such a bad law. This law creates an environment that allows people to sue individuals for no reason other than they don't like abortion. And they go after ANYONE who has had some role in assisting an abortion. It does not take into account all the practical considerations of that. The Supreme Court just decided not to intervene so the law came into effect. They have made no judgement on it yet. So it has actually not be tested by the Supreme Court.

It is also bad law because it also is invades someone privacy in that a person accusing someone of assisting has to know that a woman has actually had an abortion. What about a woman who has a miscarriage? Can she be accused of having an abortion because she attended a clinic where one moment she was pregnant and the next moment she wasn't? It does not take into account unviable fetuses and that could be a reason why a woman needs abortion.

But the stupidest thing about this law is it still does not stop abortion. Apart from driving abortion underground which puts women's lives directly in danger, people will find a way around it. You do realise on TikTok there are people in other states where abortion is freely available inviting "cousins" to come and visit them and they will take them where ever they need to go. Women can stock up on RU486 pills. People will find a way around it.
Thanks. I did not want to be inaccurate.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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13,562
My personal feeling is that the decision should be left to the pregnant woman alone. Bringing a life into this world when you don't want it or can't afford to have it does not help society, IMO. Consider this situation for a couple that I am friends with: Both parents in their mid/late-40s, married over 20 years, oldest in college, youngest senior in HS. Wife had been having spotty/irregular periods for as long as she can remember and then found out she was pregnant at 46. Neither parent wanted another child, their lives were set, retirements set, children almost out of school. Due to her age she had an amniocentesis, which revealed numerous anomalies. As a family, the children and parents decided that an abortion was the right thing to do for their family.

Now in Texas, this isn't legal. This family would be forced to have a handicapped child, too bad, so sad. That is just wrong. Leave the family planning to the family involved. That is my personal feeling about abortion. And I would never say to someone that they should abstain from sex if they aren't prepared to have a child every time they have sex. Seriously? People think like that?
The only issue I have with all that is that if you don't want a child use birth control, or don't have sex. Then you don't have a problem. And if your friends were set.....well have the baby and give it to someone who can't have one. That is quite a Mitzvah. I have 3 adopted cousins. Their parents loved the $hit out of them.

Rights come with responsibilities. If we want the right our bodies, then be responsible and make sure your actions are in line with your plans/beliefs/etc.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,776
The only issue I have with all that is that if you don't want a child use birth control, or don't have sex. Then you don't have a problem. And if your friends were set.....well have the baby and give it to someone who can't have one. That is quite a Mitzvah. I have 3 adopted cousins. Their parents loved the $hit out of them.

Rights come with responsibilities. If we want the right our bodies, then be responsible and make sure your actions are in line with your plans/beliefs/etc.
That is not a reality of the way society works and it is not going to happen.

However I can't be bothered rehashing because we have discussed these points before. But I really resent someone telling me whether I should be allowed to have sex or not, based on someone's beliefs who I don't agree with. Not anyone's place to tell me how to live mine or anyone else's life.

What I do find ironic is that any time I have seen an anti-abortionist being questioned, they have a really poor understanding of the actual Bible which is being used to justify their opinion and have no scientific understanding of how fetal development works. And further to that have no empathy or understanding of all the nuances involved in the argument.
 

AxelAnnie

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Well, one is stuck with the law. I enjoy "talking" with you. You are reasoned and thoughtful in your point of view.

I don't see the "conversation" nationally changing ever. I think people are fairly entrenched in their views (which is of course fine).

I can understand the Catholic Church and their view "


The Catholic Church believes that all human life begins at the moment of conception, and from that point has potential. This means Catholics believe that all life is sacred from the moment of conception. This is otherwise known as the sanctity of life" Their life mission was/is proselytizing.

My husband's first wife was a "born again Christian" (He was too at one point). He explained to me that the reason she kept talking to people about it was like she was convinced she had the cure for everything if you only accepted Christ.

And then there is Judaism. Jews are kind of surprisingly different in their views. You will be pleased to know

Resource originally created by National Council of Jewish Women St. Louis, adapted with permission. www.ncjw.org Advocacy Resource
Judaism and Abortion
NCJW works to ensure that every single person can make their own moral and faith-informed decisions about their body, health, and future. Our
Jewish values compel us to support full access to safe and legal abortion care as basic health care. Below is a Q&A regarding some common misconceptions about Judaism and abortion.

 Does Jewish law state that life begins at conception? No, life does not begin at conception under Jewish law. Sources in the Talmud note that the fetus is “mere water”
before 40 days of gestation. Following this period, the fetus is considered a physical part of the pregnant individual’s body, not yet having a life of its own or independent rights. The fetus is not viewed as separate from the parent’s body until birth begins and the first breath of oxygen into the lungs allows the soul to enter the body.

Now I am not advocating everyone should convert to Judaism. Although the abortion part is ok, cheeseburgers are out, as well as lobster and mussels. :ROFLMAO:

I just wish the rancor could be left out.
:ROFLMAO:
 

ЭPiKUilyam

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915
It would be wise to leave the Catholic Church out of this. Not only has the Catholic Church ignored/condoned the rapes of thousands of children by their priests, but the Catholic Church also has forced nuns, who were also raped by priests, to have abortions if they became pregnant. The Catholic Church doesn't give a **** about the "sanctity of life". The Catholic Church only cares about their sanctity to oppress women. It is one of the oldest and richest organized criminal enterprises in history.
 

AxelAnnie

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The Catholic church is a fountain of hypocrisy. After what has gone in that church over the years they are in no position to lecture anyone about morals and subsequently have become irrelevant to the discussion.
Ya think? My company which handles digital service of documents and storage of same had the joy of handling the Clergy I, Clergy II, and Clergy III cases, and there is another one coming down the pike
At the beginning of these cases, the documents all had to be scanned in by us. My daughter kept reading them....aloud. It was so horrid. "Little Johnny went to the mailbox and Sister Whomever (yep not just the priests) invited him to come into the house...........where she had her way with him.

It was so despicable. These were religious men that we trusted. I will never understand that level of evil.
 

skipaway

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Texas Doctor First to be Sued for Performing Abortion
On Monday, an Arkansas man said he decided to file a lawsuit to test the constitutionality of the Texas measure after reading a news report about Braid’s declaration. Oscar Stilley, a former lawyer convicted of tax fraud in 2010, said he is not personally opposed to abortion, but believes that the measure should be subject to judicial review.
 

Sparks

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12,645
This Arkansas man is a real gem.

Stilley is a disbarred Arkansas lawyer who is suing Dr. Alan Braid after the Texas doctor admitted to violating the state’s abortion ban. Stilley is a federal “tax protester” who was convicted of tax fraud and is currently serving the remainder of his 15-year prison sentence on home confinement

 

misskarne

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The quite funny, or perhaps more ironic, part is that the barbarians just won't get how this will show how stupid and ridiculous the Texas law is.

This...er, pillar of society is not Texan. He has no involvement. He doesn't even know the name of the woman who got the abortion. He wouldn't even know that an abortion took place if the brave and admirable doctor hadn't admitted to it. He doesn't even appear to have strong feelings about it; he just wants money.

Is not greed also a sin?
 

Theatregirl1122

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25,342
This whole thing is a test balloon. Someone needed to get sued under the law in order to take it to the Supreme Court, which is why Doctor Braid essentially came out and said, “I did an illegal abortion; somebody sue me.” He’s not confused about the consequences. If he couldn’t handle the situation, he would have performed the abortion and then not very publicly announced it to the press. The decision to announce it to the press was made so that a legal case could be built.

The fact that the person who sued him makes a very lame hero for conservatives is a bonus, especially since he actually filed suit specifically in order to take the case to the Supreme Court as well. (Which doesn’t make him a good person, but let’s not assume his motivations when they are in black and white.)

Read the article. The person suing is against the law and sued because he believes it should be tested before the Supreme Court. Both people involved here understand that this has to happen to force the Court to rule on the merits instead of punting.
 

Aussie Willy

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The quite funny, or perhaps more ironic, part is that the barbarians just won't get how this will show how stupid and ridiculous the Texas law is.

This...er, pillar of society is not Texan. He has no involvement. He doesn't even know the name of the woman who got the abortion. He wouldn't even know that an abortion took place if the brave and admirable doctor hadn't admitted to it. He doesn't even appear to have strong feelings about it; he just wants money.

Is not greed also a sin?
This guy is testing the law. I don't think it is about the money.
 

misskarne

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21,226
This whole thing is a test balloon. Someone needed to get sued under the law in order to take it to the Supreme Court, which is why Doctor Braid essentially came out and said, “I did an illegal abortion; somebody sue me.” He’s not confused about the consequences. If he couldn’t handle the situation, he would have performed the abortion and then not very publicly announced it to the press. The decision to announce it to the press was made so that a legal case could be built.

The fact that the person who sued him makes a very lame hero for conservatives is a bonus, especially since he actually filed suit specifically in order to take the case to the Supreme Court as well. (Which doesn’t make him a good person, but let’s not assume his motivations when they are in black and white.)

Read the article. The person suing is against the law and sued because he believes it should be tested before the Supreme Court. Both people involved here understand that this has to happen to force the Court to rule on the merits instead of punting.
Ah, that makes a whole lot more sense, I didn't read it properly. And that makes it 100 times better!
 

DORISPULASKI

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And some in the TX lege, having effectively outlawed abortion, at least for a while, wants women tried for murder if they "kill" a fertilized egg. The only exception is ectopic pregnancy.

So that would include using Plan B, and probably some normal contraceptives.


I would have said this is crazy, but nothing seems to be too crazy for the Texas Republicans these days.

I take it these guys do not know that 2/3 of fertilized eggs don't make it?


And that 10 to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage?


If I had a female loved one in Texas, I would plead with them to evacuate now
 
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Aussie Willy

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And some in the TX lege, having effectively outlawed abortion, at least for a while, wants women tried for murder if they "kill" a fertilized egg. The only exception is ectopic pregnancy.

So that would include using Plan B, and probably some normal contraceptives.


I would have said this is crazy, but nothing seems to be too crazy for the Texas Republicans these days.

I take it these guys do not know that 2/3 of fertilized eggs don't make it?


And that 10 to 20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage?


If I had a female loved one in Texas, I would plead with them to evacuate now
Wow that legislation is scary indeed. It talks about health insurance being prohibited from providing for abortions and I don't see any exceptions for rape or incest. It also removed all qualifications about risk to the mother.

These people have no empathy, critical thinking ability nor understanding of medical facts. In short they are a bunch of a-holes.
 

AxelAnnie

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Wow that legislation is scary indeed. It talks about health insurance being prohibited from providing for abortions and I don't see any exceptions for rape or incest. It also removed all qualifications about risk to the mother.

These people have no empathy, critical thinking ability nor understanding of medical facts. In short they are a bunch of a-holes.

i find that really hard to believe. They must be relying on the woman to know she is pregnant and wants an abortion ASAP. The only problem there is 6 weeks from the last period. Don't know if they are counting from the beginning or from the end? In any event, whether one thinks the law is right or wrong many women don't know they are pregnant at 6 weeks.

Another thing of note. They call it the Heart Beat Law. Tiny problem there. Generally (like almost always the only way you can hear the heartbeat at 6 wks is with a vaginal ultrasound. Aside from the fact that a vaginal ultrasound is a really good time........it means an extra visit that someone has to pay for.

And for even more fun:

British researchers analyzed scans of the hearts of healthy fetuses in the womb and found that the heart has four clearly defined chambers in the eighth week of pregnancy, but does not have fully organized muscle tissue until the 20th week.

So for me (don't faint) I would expand the window for a legal option to the 20th week.
.
 

ballettmaus

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The proposed TX law that @DORISPULASKI linked to above avoids the false fetal “heartbeat” issue since it gives “personhood” to a fertilized ovum, stating it had all the rights a child has in TX. About as extreme as it can be.
This is ridiculous. It's not a person, it's a clump of cells. If that can be considered a person, I want pets to be considered persons, too. And apes! Definitely apes.
 

AxelAnnie

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It's not a heartbeat.

It is 6 weeks from the first day of your last period. That's BS.
Well there is a beat it is just it is not a completed heart yet. Needs a little more time in the crock pot.
 

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