Abortion discussions - latest court cases

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,878
Can someone please explain the constitutional argument? I don't quite understand why a woman's constitutional right is violated. Is it due to precedence?
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,801
Not sure a court would automatically hold a man responsible for private school, a new home and four show horses. But, I suppose it would depend on the financial situation of the parties.

The man is not getting screwed, he is +held responsible as a parent. If he doesn't get visitation, there would have to be a reason.

The man is responsible, along with the woman. He gives child support for the child he participated in creating.
Oh yes. And it was four horses + horse shows. Yes, I agree about being responsible for your actions. The visitation was very limited. I don't remember...........but i will try to remember to ask my brother.

But you didn't respond to my other question. If the man wants the woman to have an abortion...tough. if the woman wants to keep the child, then I think she should bear financial responsibility. And if the man wants the baby but the woman has an abortion that is ok. Yet if the man doesn't want to have a child and the woman does, he is left with 18 years of child support. What if this child is the only one the man is going to have (say testicular cancer). He cannot compel the woman to have the child? Doesn't seem right. It would be his only child. The whole issue as far as I am concerned is just nuts, and unfair to everyone. And, then there are people who gave their child up for adoption but want them back. Or how about the girl/woman who gives the baby up, and the father finds out several years later that a. there was a child, and b. he was never consulted on what happened to that child. Does he have no rights?

I watch a lot of Lifetime movies.....hence I have developed a keen sense of right and wrong (just kidding).
 

Lemonade20

If I agreed with you, we’d both be wrong.
Messages
1,903
Oh yes. And it was four horses + horse shows. Yes, I agree about being responsible for your actions. The visitation was very limited. I don't remember...........but i will try to remember to ask my brother.

But you didn't respond to my other question. If the man wants the woman to have an abortion...tough. if the woman wants to keep the child, then I think she should bear financial responsibility. And if the man wants the baby but the woman has an abortion that is ok. Yet if the man doesn't want to have a child and the woman does, he is left with 18 years of child support. What if this child is the only one the man is going to have (say testicular cancer). He cannot compel the woman to have the child? Doesn't seem right. It would be his only child. The whole issue as far as I am concerned is just nuts, and unfair to everyone. And, then there are people who gave their child up for adoption but want them back. Or how about the girl/woman who gives the baby up, and the father finds out several years later that a. there was a child, and b. he was never consulted on what happened to that child. Does he have no rights?

I watch a lot of Lifetime movies.....hence I have developed a keen sense of right and wrong (just kidding).
AA, please go back to your Lifetime movies. You're babbling like a brook
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
24,805
But you didn't respond to my other question. If the man wants the woman to have an abortion...tough. if the woman wants to keep the child, then I think she should bear financial responsibility. And if the man wants the baby but the woman has an abortion that is ok.

Um, to restate once again - it is her body, her choice. So it doesn't matter whether the man wants the baby. He has own choices, but they do not include the right to make decisions regarding the woman's body.

However, there are far more women who have abortions because the man involved doesn't want anything to do with the child, far, far more than women who have abortions when the man wants the baby.

@AxelAnnie, you seem to entirely not get a woman's/person's right to bodily autonomy and agency.

Nor do think your argument through in terms of defending a world where those rights are denied. Constitutionally based rights.

Would you be okay if another constitutionally based right was denied, for example, the right to freedom of speech?

Is a woman's constitutionally based right of less value than other constitutionally based rights?




Yet if the man doesn't want to have a child and the woman does, he is left with 18 years of child support. What if this child is the only one the man is going to have (say testicular cancer). He cannot compel the woman to have the child? Doesn't seem right. It would be his only child. The whole issue as far as I am concerned is just nuts, and unfair to everyone. And, then there are people who gave their child up for adoption but want them back. Or how about the girl/woman who gives the baby up, and the father finds out several years later that a. there was a child, and b. he was never consulted on what happened to that child. Does he have no rights?

Her body, her choice. His body, his choice.

The man with testicular cancer who only has a chance of having one child has a choice in who he has sex with. He can choose a woman who wants to have a child.

A man does not have to be consulted in what another human being chooses to do with her own body. He has no rights in that regard. But he still has choices. Just like a man who doesn't want a child can find a woman who likewise doesn't want one.

Please stop treating men like victims in these situations. They are not victims. And plenty of them just bugger off and find ways to avoid paying child support - which is for the child he helped create.
 
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Reuven

Official FSU Alte Kacher
Messages
16,330
Always liked then-Senator Kamala Harris’ question she put to beer-loving sexual predator Brett Kavanaugh: "Can you think of any laws that give the government the power to make decisions about the male body?" He had to admit he knew of none.
 

jenny12

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,444
But you didn't respond to my other question. If the man wants the woman to have an abortion...tough. if the woman wants to keep the child, then I think she should bear financial responsibility. And if the man wants the baby but the woman has an abortion that is ok. Yet if the man doesn't want to have a child and the woman does, he is left with 18 years of child support. What if this child is the only one the man is going to have (say testicular cancer). He cannot compel the woman to have the child? Doesn't seem right. It would be his only child. The whole issue as far as I am concerned is just nuts, and unfair to everyone. And, then there are people who gave their child up for adoption but want them back. Or how about the girl/woman who gives the baby up, and the father finds out several years later that a. there was a child, and b. he was never consulted on what happened to that child. Does he have no rights?

This hand wringing about “poor men” is so unnecessary to the point of being absurd. It’s a woman’s body. Period. Why should men have any rights over a woman’s body? You are attempting to portray a picture of evil women deliberately aborting a poor, innocent man’s “baby” and that picture has absolutely no place in the realities of what actually happens. Now, you think women just abort “babies” just to stick it to men? You seem to be just finding new ways to create a nonsensical narrative of how evil women are. Her body. Her choice. If a woman feels she needs an abortion, then she needs one and she is doing what’s best for herself. Instead of being so concerned about men and fetuses, maybe do some soul searching about why women seem to be the last people you care about.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,910
Should a woman be allowed to sell any organ she wants as well? It’s totally agreed by all it seems government has the right to prevent a woman from selling a lung.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
Messages
12,781
A man can't sell a lung either. It is a transplant organ. It can only be donated.

Q: So it’s legal to sell whole bodies and their parts, even heads and limbs?
A: It’s illegal to sell human fetuses. Otherwise, yes: In almost every state, it’s legal to sell the human remains of adults. One misconception promoted by some brokers is that it is illegal to sell body parts and that people who distribute them may only be reimbursed for processing, shipping and other expenses. In most states, such laws only apply to transplant organs, such as hearts and kidneys, and to tissue, such as skin and bone. But in almost every state, these laws do not apply to whole cadavers or to parts, such as torsos, shoulders and heads. Reuters found that some brokers conflate rules for transplant organs with those for non-transplant body parts in order to create the impression that they do not profit from body donations
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
Messages
12,781
On Facebook, a question is being asked this way:

A high school football star had a rape charge against him dropped after 16 year old girl confessed the rape never happened. He spent almost 6 years imprisoned and broke down when the charge was moved to dismissed.
Should Women Go To Jail for False Rape Accusations?.

This probably is referring to the Brian Banks/Wanetta Gibson case

Maybe the Facebook post is a one off, but it is written in such a rabble-rousing way that I fear there will be a big forced birther push to make it look like "real" rape seldom occurs.

This crap has been flown before;
Remember MO Senate candidate Todd Akin:

He claimed "legitimate" rape victims almost can't get pregnant.

.Meanwhile Gov. Abbott is going to get rid of rape and rapists...

Jailing rape victims will do that...

More about rape and the public view of rape:

The public and police officers grossly overestimate the percent of false rape accusations. It is no wonder it is hard to get a rape conviction, or to get women to report a rape.

The above article discusses the problem-

rapists that are convicted average about 6 rapes apiece.

About 25% of women will be raped in their lifetime. The rapists are overwhelmingly people they know.

Women falsely reporting rape generally do not falsely accuse a real person, so the percent of rape accusations that falsely accuse a named person is very, very small.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,801
This hand wringing about “poor men” is so unnecessary to the point of being absurd. It’s a woman’s body. Period. Why should men have any rights over a woman’s body? You are attempting to portray a picture of evil women deliberately aborting a poor, innocent man’s “baby” and that picture has absolutely no place in the realities of what actually happens. Now, you think women just abort “babies” just to stick it to men? You seem to be just finding new ways to create a nonsensical narrative of how evil women are. Her body. Her choice. If a woman feels she needs an abortion, then she needs one and she is doing what’s best for herself. Instead of being so concerned about men and fetuses, maybe do some soul searching about why women seem to be the last people you care about.
That is an interesting conclusion.

In your world, are there time limits within which abortion is OK, and outside of which (health of mother excepted, of course) it is not ok?

Your reading comprehension skills seem to be lacking. I do not think women, and surely you are not referring to all women) are evil.

BTW - I suspect I hold women's intelligence and reasoning abilities in higher regard than most. Miss a period.........see the doctor. Very simple. Then, abortion is a decision.

I do not think women abort babies to stick it to men. That would be horrid if it weren't so silly.

Her body and her responsibility. If you don't want a baby.....don't have sex. It is really quite simple. You play, you pay. BTW - how does a woman "feel" she needs an abortion? I would think having an abortion would live in the logical and rational part of a woman's brain.

Decisions about whether to go forward with a pregnancy are often thought to be the domain solely of women. Much as motherhood should not be imposed on a woman, however, fatherhood should not be imposed on a man.​

That entire construct is just wrong.

Men’s rights and pregnancy​


Men have the right to avoid conceiving unplanned pregnancies either by choosing not to have sex or to use condoms: currently condoms are the only form of contraception over which a man can take full responsibility.
Beyond this, men have few rights in a decision about their partner’s pregnancy because the law makes no other provision:
  • If a woman chooses to continue with a pregnancy he may be held financially responsible for the upbringing of the child, regardless of their relationship or his part in the child’s life
  • If she chooses to have an abortion she may do so without his agreement
If a woman decides to have a baby, then it is incumbent upon her to be responsible for that life.
She is the person who played "hide the weenie". There are many consequences of having intercourse---STD's and Pregnancy are kind of at the top of the list. If you missed a period get the the DR during the first three months. That is a lot of time to notice or expect you are pregnant. It is called being responsible!

So, it is her body and her choice. Totally. And we all need to be responsible for our own choices in life. And a woman does have a choice.......but it is not a choice that should impact others. If you are adult enough to play "my body, my rules" then the consequences that fall from that are also yours, whether you have the baby or have an abortion. And, if you are old enough to have sex, you are certainly old enough to understand the consequences of your action.
 
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jenny12

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,444
In your world, are there time limits within which abortion is OK, and outside of which (health of mother excepted, of course) it is not ok?

Her body and her responsibility. If you don't want a baby.....don't have sex. It is really quite simple. You play, you pay. BTW - how does a woman "feel" she needs an abortion? I would think having an abortion would live in the logical and rational part of a woman's brain.


That entire construct is just wrong.

If a woman decides to have a baby, then it is incumbent upon her to be responsible for that life.
She is the person who played "hide the weenie". There are many consequences of having intercourse---STD's and Pregnancy are kind of at the top of the list.

So, it is her body and her choice. Totally. And we all need to be responsible for our own choices in life. And a woman does have a choice.......but it is not a choice that should impact others. If you are adult enough to play "my body, my rules" then the consequences that fall from that are also yours, whether you have the baby or have an abortion. And, if you are old enough to have sex, you are certainly old enough to understand the consequences of your action.

I don’t think I am in any place to impose limits on abortion. That is up to a woman and her doctor. You seem to have it in your mind that most women will deliberately wait until the last minute to have an abortion when it is usually because they have to either for the sake of their own life or because of health problems with the fetus.

Women can have both logical and emotional reasons for having abortions. It is not your call to determine which reasons are legitimate. Also, you can say “don’t have sex” all you want but the reality is the banning abortion does not lead to people making more responsible (or at least responsible as you define it) decisions about sex. It leads to women having unauthorized abortions that puts their lives in jeopardy.

Your repetitive demand for consequences on people’s private sexual choices really shows what this is all about. You can’t stand that women have sexual autonomy these days and want them punished for making “bad choices.” The anti-abortion movement is an anti-woman movement. Period.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,801
I don’t think I am in any place to impose limits on abortion. That is up to a woman and her doctor. You seem to have it in your mind that most women will deliberately wait until the last minute to have an abortion when it is usually because they have to either for the sake of their own life or because of health problems with the fetus.

Women can have both logical and emotional reasons for having abortions. It is not your call to determine which reasons are legitimate. Also, you can say “don’t have sex” all you want but the reality is the banning abortion does not lead to people making more responsible (or at least responsible as you define it) decisions about sex. It leads to women having unauthorized abortions that puts their lives in jeopardy.

Your repetitive demand for consequences on people’s private sexual choices really shows what this is all about. You can’t stand that women have sexual autonomy these days and want them punished for making “bad choices.” The anti-abortion movement is an anti-woman movemenWat. Period.
Way to shirk your duty as a woman and person. So, an abortion at 36 weeks is ok with you.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,801
Are you just making stuff up or do you actually know someone who had an abortion at 36 weeks gestation?

I mean other than for a non viable fetus?

At this point, I think you are just trying to say the most outlandish thing you can think of.
Actually, I do know someone who had a late-term abortion. IMO it was horrific. I would like to pray that women who don't want children make their decision in a timely manner. My step-daughter skewered around thinking she would have the baby and have all the fun and experiences that her brother and his wife were having. Not going to happen. D&S married finished law school and had a child. M. father who didn't want a kid (and they were married) disappeared. How do you explain this to your kid.....especially after you are re-married and had a kid? You don't. There is no good way to handle this.

I remember when one of my grandchildren came onto the bathroom when his mother was going to the bathroom.....and had some menstrual blood down there somewhere. Lovely daughter explained that Girls have a vagina. He was ok with that, as he thought it applied to one friend. He was completely gob smacked to discover that ALL girls have a vagina. Wish you could have seen his face.
 

taf2002

Fluff up your tutu & dance away.....
Messages
26,268
And now there's a new word - stealthing. It's when a man removes the condom without his partner's knowledge or consent. Despicable! It's especially vile since the woman will have a very hard time getting an abortion in today's climate.

AA - I love your imagination. Such interesting anecdotes! When I'm sitting on the toilet no one can see my vagina or if there's blood there. I guess your daughter was touching her toes for some reason.
 

alexikeguchi

Well-Known Member
Messages
872
Separate from the emotions, I'm having a hard time seeing how some rando person in TX could actually prevail in a civil lawsuit. Wouldn't they have to prove that a woman accessed a clinic specifically to undergo an abortion, and then that it occurred after six weeks gestation? That is protected health information not available to someone uninvolved in a patient's medical care. As in an actual HIPAA violation, not a bogus violation like a member of congress discussing their own vaccination status for example.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,842
Separate from the emotions, I'm having a hard time seeing how some rando person in TX could actually prevail in a civil lawsuit. Wouldn't they have to prove that a woman accessed a clinic specifically to undergo an abortion, and then that it occurred after six weeks gestation? That is protected health information not available to someone uninvolved in a patient's medical care. As in an actual HIPAA violation, not a bogus violation like a member of congress discussing their own vaccination status for example.
That is why the "reporting" website has been pulled down twice from different website hosts because of the violation of privacy for those who are being sued. It violates the agreements for being allowed to have a website on their services.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,842
Duty as a woman to what?

Late term abortion represents like 1% of all abortions. You really think a woman would go through pregnancy for eight months just to have an abortion after that for sh*ts and giggles?
Exactly. Most women who have to make that decision will have been expecting to have a healthy baby. It is a f*cking awful decision to have to make.

And this term "duty" when it comes to women? What an outdated concept.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
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21,474
I would think that a 36 week "abortion" would be called birth. Or is the contention that a doctor would deliver a 36 week old fetus and then kill it?
That is what people like @AxelAnnie claim, always without proof.

The reality that people like AA don't want to accept that if any kind of discussion is being had at that very late stage, it is because the baby is incompatible with life. It is a horrendous scenario, a terrible tragedy, where an often very wanted baby cannot survive due to some critical flaw in development. The baby is often born in tremendous pain and suffers until the moment it departs. The risk to the pregnant person's life is often elevated too.

No woman is going to get to 36 weeks and then decide to have an "abortion" for funsies. Nor would any doctor agree to perform such a procedure just because she didn't want the baby anymore.
 

ЭPiKUilyam

Banned Member
Messages
1,333

‘Fundamental Right’: Defiant Texas Doctor Goes Public About Abortion He Provided​



I'm not sure I would have his bravery, but he has my support. He's been practicing before Roe. He knows firsthand about back alley abortions and deaths from abortions before Roe. My mother is an OB and she is pro-choice after experiencing it all back in the early 70s. I just wonder about the legal implications this has for him? Will he be forced to divulge his patient's name? What a freaking mess.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,801

‘Fundamental Right’: Defiant Texas Doctor Goes Public About Abortion He Provided​



I'm not sure I would have his bravery, but he has my support. He's been practicing before Roe. He knows firsthand about back alley abortions and deaths from abortions before Roe. My mother is an OB and she is pro-choice after experiencing it all back in the early 70s. I just wonder about the legal implications this has for him? Will he be forced to divulge his patient's name? What a freaking mess.
What Constitution is he referring to? I assume he is referring to the Texas Heartbeat Law.

To function as a society there are laws and guidelines in place.

Texas can make any laws they want. If this guy doesn't like it.....move to another state.
The US Supreme Court chose not to review this law....leaving it in place.

His bloviating about it ensures he will be out of business pretty quickly. If he wanted an illegal abortion (and it does not matter whether he thinks it is constitutional) He has no say in the matter

His bloviating is a pathetic move for publicity. I don't see his actions as brave. I see them as weak. If it was about this woman wanting an abortion....how bout he drive on over to a nearby state?

We (as a society) will always remain deeply divided on this issue (IMO)

Here are two issues that were resolved.....not peacefully....but people agreed to not agree AND abide by the laws.

Remember Ruby Bridges?

Or Rosa Parks?
 
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once_upon

Vaccinated
Messages
19,858
What Constitution is he referring to? I assume he is referring to the Texas Heartbeat Law.

To function as a society there are laws and guidelines in place.

Texas can make any laws they want. If this guy doesn't like it.....move to another state.
The US Supreme Court chose not to review this law....leaving it in place.

His bloviating about it ensures he will be out of business pretty quickly. If he wanted an illegal abortion (and it does not matter whether he thinks it is constitutional) He has no say in the matter

His bloviating is a pathetic move for publicity. I don't see his actions as brave. I see them as weak. If it was about this woman wanting an abortion....how bout he drive on over to a nearby state?

We (as a society) will always remain deeply divided on this issue (IMO)

Here are two issues that were resolved.....not peacefully....but people agreed to not agree AND abide by the laws.

Remember Ruby Bridges?

Or Rosa Parks?
Did you read that it was a 9 hour drive, she couldn't risk taking off work and more importantly I think is that she had no child care for her 4 children? She and the doctor felt there were no options
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,761

‘Fundamental Right’: Defiant Texas Doctor Goes Public About Abortion He Provided​

...

I'm not sure I would have his bravery, but he has my support. He's been practicing before Roe. He knows firsthand about back alley abortions and deaths from abortions before Roe. My mother is an OB and she is pro-choice after experiencing it all back in the early 70s. I just wonder about the legal implications this has for him? Will he be forced to divulge his patient's name? What a freaking mess.
Texas Republicans devised a law intended to avoid judicial review. If someone tries to press the issue with Dr. Braid, we'll see how this despicable legislation fares. If nobody tries it, other doctors will know that they can follow his lead.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
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12,781
Dr. Braid is the Rosa Parks of this bad law. To fight a bad law, someone has to violate it. Rosa Parks refused to move to the back of the bus. Dr. Braid performed an abortion, presumably at over 6 weeks

Let the legal process begin (and end successfully to bring down this law.), I hope before too many women die from septic backstreet abortions, like the 3 young women in Dr. Braid's announcement.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,842
What Constitution is he referring to? I assume he is referring to the Texas Heartbeat Law.

To function as a society there are laws and guidelines in place.

Texas can make any laws they want. If this guy doesn't like it.....move to another state.
The US Supreme Court chose not to review this law....leaving it in place.

His bloviating about it ensures he will be out of business pretty quickly. If he wanted an illegal abortion (and it does not matter whether he thinks it is constitutional) He has no say in the matter

His bloviating is a pathetic move for publicity. I don't see his actions as brave. I see them as weak. If it was about this woman wanting an abortion....how bout he drive on over to a nearby state?

We (as a society) will always remain deeply divided on this issue (IMO)

Here are two issues that were resolved.....not peacefully....but people agreed to not agree AND abide by the laws.

Remember Ruby Bridges?

Or Rosa Parks?
How about testing the law to see how stupid it is? That is also an option. And he does have the right under the constitution and Roe V Wade to perform it. More doctors need to take a stand on it.

Someone will now have to come forward to sue him for their $10K bounty and so it will have to go to court. So lets see who that bunny is. And you sure as hell can bet that thousands will contribute to a go fund to help him with his legal fees. That is what needs to happen.

As for doctors who perform abortions being brave, they sure as hell they are. They get death threats all the time and the anti-abortion nutjobs are that number one threat.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,801
How about testing the law to see how stupid it is? That is also an option. And he does have the right under the constitution and Roe V Wade to perform it. More doctors need to take a stand on it.

Someone will now have to come forward to sue him for their $10K bounty and so it will have to go to court. So lets see who that bunny is. And you sure as hell can bet that thousands will contribute to a go fund to help him with his legal fees. That is what needs to happen.

As for doctors who perform abortions being brave, they sure as hell they are. They get death threats all the time and the anti-abortion nutjobs are that number one threat.
Where else would the law be tested? It has already been to the Supremes, and they are letting it stand.
The $10K bounty is simply a proposal at this point. He has already said he did the abortion. Little late to un-ring that bell.

Braid is 76. I would suspect he will simply plead Nolo Contendre: . no contest plea or “nolo contendre” plea does simply mean that you do not wish to contest the charges against you. Technically, it is not an admission of guilt. However, depending on the type of plea bargain or sentence being imposed, a no contest can be the equivalent of a guilty plea.

Question: I have forgotten, what is your personal feeling about abortion? Should viability guide / shape the decision? (I am not talking about the health of the mother or child.)

Someone up-thread asked if I knew anyone who had an abortion at 36 weeks. The closest I know is my stepdaughter who had her third abortion at 29 weeks.

My youngest is 41....so this is a long time ago. A woman across the street from me had a premature birth. Now remember, there were no ultrasounds. My step-son saw the baby in the incubator. It was just mindblowing to me that he had seen what I was carrying.


 

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