Abortion discussions - latest court cases

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
26,131
I thought I would start a new thread about abortion cases.

South Carolina is about to sign into law a bill that would ban most abortions. And it is about to be approved by the governor.


Of course it is hoped the Supreme Court will support it if it get taken to the courts.
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,249
So the opponents say it can take women months to know they are pregnant. Way more than six weeks. That menstrual cycles can vary. Irregular periods. That is a compelling argument. Because if a woman did have a regular period the time frame in the fetal heartbeat bill is too narrow not to ban all abortion

But who wants to talk about details like this? Not proper for government
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
14,463
So the opponents say it can take women months to know they are pregnant. Way more than six weeks. That menstrual cycles can vary. Irregular periods. That is a compelling argument. Because if a woman did have a regular period the time frame in the fetal heartbeat bill is too narrow not to ban all abortion

But who wants to talk about details like this? Not proper for government
Um..............Geesh! Women are not morons. Abortion is not a birth control method! Whatever "situation" they have like irregular periods figure something out. If you are having sex then be responsible for the outcome. Hate to be silly.....but really! And, months to know you are pregnant? I don't buy it.......... But even so.....if you have irregular periods figure out how to manage it.

But even if that is true.......buy a flippin' pregnancy test and start using it daily. Then you will know in plenty of time if you are pregnant.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
26,131
Um..............Geesh! Women are not morons. Abortion is not a birth control method! Whatever "situation" they have like irregular periods figure something out. If you are having sex then be responsible for the outcome. Hate to be silly.....but really! And, months to know you are pregnant? I don't buy it.......... But even so.....if you have irregular periods figure out how to manage it.

But even if that is true.......buy a flippin' pregnancy test and start using it daily. Then you will know in plenty of time if you are pregnant.
Hmmm not everyone fits into a convenient little box.
 

misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
Messages
22,853
:mad:

I have to remind myself that in all/most of the western developed world, a woman's right to reproductive choice (constitutionally based in Canada, the US, and likely elsewhere) is a done deal. Much of the world has moved on.
But we cannot relax and cannot sit back and think the job's done, because people like AxelAnnie and her ilk want to take that right away from us. We can never stop fighting for that right.
 

genevieve

drinky typo pbp, closet hugger (she/her)
Staff member
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40,417
Um..............Geesh! Women are not morons. Abortion is not a birth control method! Whatever "situation" they have like irregular periods figure something out. If you are having sex then be responsible for the outcome. Hate to be silly.....but really! And, months to know you are pregnant? I don't buy it.......... But even so.....if you have irregular periods figure out how to manage it.

But even if that is true.......buy a flippin' pregnancy test and start using it daily. Then you will know in plenty of time if you are pregnant.
I know better than to respond, buuuut:

1) I had a friend who learned she was pregnant, but then every appointment she went to they added weeks to how pregnant she was. She knew she wanted an abortion, but what she thought was going to be a standard 9-12 week D&C ended up being a late term abortion because apparently she had had 2 or 3 regular periods while pregnant. She had no idea until she finally missed a period. It happens, and can be terrifying.

2) Like it or not, abortion is, for many, being responsible for the outcome.
 

syzygy

Well-Known Member
Messages
173
Abortion is not a birth control method!
Simple, don't restrict other birth control methods like many of the states with abortion bans seem to be doing.
And, months to know you are pregnant? I don't buy it..........
Someone hasn't taken a basic health class.
But even if that is true.......buy a flippin' pregnancy test and start using it daily.
Considering no doctor with brains will confirm one as pregnant until they are usually 8 weeks in (even if your pregnancy test was positive)... what do you even mean by this?
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,249
:mad:

I have to remind myself that in all/most of the western developed world, a woman's right to reproductive choice (constitutionally based in Canada, the US, and likely elsewhere) is a done deal. Much of the world has moved on.
Maybe but The UK actually has more conservative abortion law than most American states! Maybe that’s why it’s a done deal. The Supreme Court in 1973 was like abortion any time any place and since then US has been making its laws more conservative but still not as conservative as UK
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,314
But we cannot relax and cannot sit back and think the job's done, because people like AxelAnnie and her ilk want to take that right away from us. We can never stop fighting for that right.
Absolutely. That which can be given can also be taken away.
Banning abortion will never stop women from getting abortions.

I’m thankful I live in Canada where it’s a non-issue and doesn’t continually get threatened.

Banning abortion will only stop safe, legal abortion.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
14,463
I know better than to respond, buuuut:

1) I had a friend who learned she was pregnant, but then every appointment she went to they added weeks to how pregnant she was. She knew she wanted an abortion, but what she thought was going to be a standard 9-12 week D&C ended up being a late term abortion because apparently she had had 2 or 3 regular periods while pregnant. She had no idea until she finally missed a period. It happens, and can be terrifying.

2) Like it or not, abortion is, for many, being responsible for the outcome.
Have no fear. I am actually quite nice....ask my grandchildren :)

Sorry for your friend. I am a little confused about the timeline. Your friend learned she was pregnant. She knew she wanted an abortion.
It seems she saw a doctor who added weeks to her pregnancy putting her out of the 9-12 week window. Do I have that right?

Why didn't she have an abortion when she first learned she was pregnant? Why?

The issue I have is the wait. I just don't get that.

Where you see a fetus, I see a life. I see hands and toes and digestive system. There is nothing else it can be but a developing life.

It is not my world (bummer) but if it were, I would have no abortions, Except for rape or the life of the mother.

I am a Jew, and Jews say life begins with the first breath the baby takes. Religiously have an abortion any time, because it is not a life.

So for me the entire conversation is When Does Life Begin. A fetus is a baby in the making. It is not going to come out and be a cow! It can only be a person. I would say it begins at conception. But that is just me.

Not that it makes a difference, I have settled on first trimester abortions(again in my world) get a pass. You are young, stupid, and won't be making that mistake.

Having said that, I have three daughters. My step-daughter has had 3 abortions. (Really, we could never figure out what she was using for birth control- but she assured us she was using something.....you would think after the second abortion she would wise up. With the third one, she did not have an abortion until late in the 2nd trimester. She was not in a committed relationship. She just thought having a baby would be fun....................until her sister-in-laws who had children at that point
explained the facts of life.

My two daughters have each had an abortion. I took them to the appointments. When I found out my older daughter was pregnant and going to have an abortion, I talked to our gynecologist. He was very wise. I asked him how I was going to handle this. He recommended VODKA! That helped me a lot.

They have a different slant on it all now. Perspective can do that.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
14,463
Simple, don't restrict other birth control methods like many of the states with abortion bans seem to be doing.
What other birth control methods are being restricted? I don't know of any state that bans birth control.
Someone hasn't taken a basic health class.

Considering no doctor with brains will confirm one as pregnant until they are usually 8 weeks in (even if your pregnancy test was positive)... what do you even mean by this?
Really?


Woman's Health
Blood tests can tell if you are pregnant about six to eight days after you ovulate. Doctors use two types of blood tests to check for pregnancy: Quantitative blood test (or the beta hCG test) measures the exact amount of hCG in your blood. So it can find even tiny amounts of hCG.

So, there you go.
 

jenny12

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,985
So for me the entire conversation is When Does Life Begin.

The entire conversation for me is what is best for the woman (or people who can get pregnant). For her health, for her emotional well-being, for her finances, for her identity. All those things have to do with a life of a woman. Her body, her choice. Period. We need to be fighting for a world of equality. Abortion is a vital aspect of that. It doesn't mean that it's not a hard decision. But it needs to remain a decision. As many others have mentioned here, banning legal abortion just means a rise in illegal abortion. You cannot and should not force a woman to be pregnant. Pregnancy is not a punishment for having sex. And if anyone thinks that, they must really hate sex and women.
 
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Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
25,314
Where you see a fetus, I see a life. I see hands and toes and digestive system. There is nothing else it can be but a developing life.
I don't think pro-choice folk would disagree that it's a developing life - I certainly wouldn't.
It is not my world (bummer) but if it were, I would have no abortions, Except for rape or the life of the mother.

It is your world in terms of your right to make your own reproductive choices. As I've told you before - if a woman is against abortion, she doesn't have to have one.

Fetuses don't have protected rights under the Canadian and American constitutions, and I would expect the same to be true for the constitutions of other western developed nations.

If constitutions granted fetuses rights that trumped the rights of the women who carried them, the implications would be severe. If certain practices were deemed offensive, women could be jailed or locked up.

One case involving a woman's right to choose comes to mind. There was a pregnant woman in Canada who was addicted to glue, and already had several mentally handicapped children. The Province of Manitoba took her to court to mandate an abortion, and the court ruled that the mandate was in violation of her human rights. A woman's right to reproductive choice includes the right to carry to term.

If fetuses had the superior rights, women could be penalized for all sorts of perceived transgressions. They might be incarcerated for failing to follow what are considered the right dietary and lifestyle practices, for example.

I am a Jew, and Jews say life begins with the first breath the baby takes. Religiously have an abortion any time, because it is not a life.
You totally contradict yourself here. Sure wish AG was around to give an informed scriptural interpretation.

My general understanding as a Jew is that abortion is permitted because the fetus is not a life until a certain point. For example, SFAIK Jews don't name a fetus until a certain point. I stand to be correct on that if wrong.

Here is one view:



So for me the entire conversation is When Does Life Begin. A fetus is a baby in the making. It is not going to come out and be a cow! It can only be a person. I would say it begins at conception. But that is just me.

Not that it makes a difference, I have settled on first trimester abortions(again in my world) get a pass. You are young, stupid, and won't be making that mistake.

Well, the question of when life begins is a controversial one.

But even if it begins at conception, abortion should still be allowed/legal IMO. The status of the fetus is not at issue, though pro-life likes to make it so. The question that law-makers grappled with in determining whether or not to legalize abortion was a constitutional one, not a moral one. Legalization was based on 'right to privacy' in the US and 'right to security of person' in Canada. I'm not sure what constitutional bases other countries use, but I expect they are along similar lines.

Another thing @AxelAnnie: you conveniently and consistently fail to recognize that the right to carry to term is also a reproductive choice (as mentioned above).

Don't kid yourself that situations have and could occur in which women are forced to have abortions. I don't have the source handy, but recall a situation in China where a whole town's worth of women were forced to have an abortion, at the height of the population crisis. And think of all the women who have been victim to forced sterilizations (e.g. Indigenous and mentally handicapped women.) This just happened recently in one or more of the US detention camps. Women's periods were also tracked, and for awhile, women were subjected to an unnecessary pelvic exam. With regard to the latter, I don't recall for certain whether that was women in detention, or women elsewhere (though I think the former).

And think of all the women who have been basically forced by their families to have an abortion because they are bearing a girl, and girls are a liability in many societies. China seriously skewed its male-female balance in favor of males because of this.

Don't kid yourself - there could be more times and places in which women are forced to have abortions due to resource shortages/preferences for boys.

You fundamentally don't get the meaning of 'a woman's right to choose'.


 
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misskarne

Handy Emergency Backup Mode
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22,853
It seems she saw a doctor who added weeks to her pregnancy putting her out of the 9-12 week window. Do I have that right?

Why didn't she have an abortion when she first learned she was pregnant? Why?

The issue I have is the wait. I just don't get that.
You do realise that in many states in the US, multiple doctor's visits are mandated, legislated by PEOPLE LIKE YOU as a way to put barriers in the way of women seeking abortion?

There are places that require women seeking a termination to listen to the 'heartbeat', purely to try and guilt trip them. States that require a referral to pregnancy "counselling" services, which are really run by filthy religious hypocrites like you and exist only to shame women out of having an abortion and shame them for having sex.
 

once_upon

Enough
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24,026
Why not? Of course, it can.

I think what @once_upon means it that women will have abortions regardless of the law. Please correct me if I'm wrong, @once-upon.
If you've ever read any of my posts on abortions I've given plenty of examples of women who I knew who had abortions before they were legal or when their partner did not want her to have. A baby and physically punched her, pushed her downstairs to attempt to rid her of the fetus.

All throughout history, there are stories of women seeking herbs to abort, seeking measures or activities to abort.

You simply will not stop abortion by legislation or your own ethics or privilege.
 

genevieve

drinky typo pbp, closet hugger (she/her)
Staff member
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40,417
Sorry for your friend. I am a little confused about the timeline. Your friend learned she was pregnant. She knew she wanted an abortion.
It seems she saw a doctor who added weeks to her pregnancy putting her out of the 9-12 week window. Do I have that right?

Why didn't she have an abortion when she first learned she was pregnant? Why?

The issue I have is the wait. I just don't get that.
I understand the confusion. It was confusing! This happened decades ago, and although I was close enough to know all the details, it didn't happen to me, so some of the details are lost to time. But I believe what happened is she showed up to the first appointment (which was at least some days after she learned she was pregnant - a same-day appointment was not a thing), which starts with a pregnancy test and an exam, and the doctor either discovered or had reason to believe she was outside the window for the simple D&C. So she had to get a difference pregnancy test and make another appointment. It was not possible to just get a different abortion same day, same clinic. I believe the next appointment was one week later. Somehow either during that week, or at the next appointment, the doctors discovered she was even further along than they'd thought, which kicked her into a totally different category. Late-term abortions involve a lot of hoops to jump through, especially in the state we lived in then. The cruelty is that the time between appointments, which she had no control over, contributed to her pregnancy being further along.

Trust me, the delay was not her choice AT ALL. The laws around abortion access meant that she did not have agency in making this happen any faster than it did. None of us had insurance back then. I don't know if that played into scheduling - she paid for it all out of pocket, but it was a far more expensive procedure, and we were all working in restaurants making $2.01 an hour plus (bad) tips.

ETA: this was long ago that there was no BS requirement to make her "listen to the heartbeat", or other really cruel barriers that exist now for no other reason but to punish a woman seeking a legal medical procedure.
 
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Judy

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,482
Have no fear. I am actually quite nice....ask my grandchildren :)

Sorry for your friend. I am a little confused about the timeline. Your friend learned she was pregnant. She knew she wanted an abortion.
It seems she saw a doctor who added weeks to her pregnancy putting her out of the 9-12 week window. Do I have that right?

Why didn't she have an abortion when she first learned she was pregnant? Why?

The issue I have is the wait. I just don't get that.

Where you see a fetus, I see a life. I see hands and toes and digestive system. There is nothing else it can be but a developing life.

It is not my world (bummer) but if it were, I would have no abortions, Except for rape or the life of the mother.

I am a Jew, and Jews say life begins with the first breath the baby takes. Religiously have an abortion any time, because it is not a life.

So for me the entire conversation is When Does Life Begin. A fetus is a baby in the making. It is not going to come out and be a cow! It can only be a person. I would say it begins at conception. But that is just me.

Not that it makes a difference, I have settled on first trimester abortions(again in my world) get a pass. You are young, stupid, and won't be making that mistake.

Having said that, I have three daughters. My step-daughter has had 3 abortions. (Really, we could never figure out what she was using for birth control- but she assured us she was using something.....you would think after the second abortion she would wise up. With the third one, she did not have an abortion until late in the 2nd trimester. She was not in a committed relationship. She just thought having a baby would be fun....................until her sister-in-laws who had children at that point
explained the facts of life.

My two daughters have each had an abortion. I took them to the appointments. When I found out my older daughter was pregnant and going to have an abortion, I talked to our gynecologist. He was very wise. I asked him how I was going to handle this. He recommended VODKA! That helped me a lot.

They have a different slant on it all now. Perspective can do that.
You also have to factor in women trying to leave a domestic abuse situation.

i’ll come back to comment more on your story - not in attack mode sort of way.
 

syzygy

Well-Known Member
Messages
173
What other birth control methods are being restricted? I don't know of any state that bans birth control.
In any state where this is not explicitly illegal, any organization can change their insurance to not cover a woman's birth control without even notifying the government. Insurance companies can also legally refuse to cover birth control if they feel it violates their morals. There are only 8 states that guarantee access to free birth control.
Really?


Woman's Health


So, there you go.
Any doctor I've ever seen won't use a blood test to confirm a pregnancy as they can give false positives. They usually require a vaginal ultrasound which must be delayed until 6 to 8 weeks after a missed period. And then you need MORE appointments to get an abortion. In Utah, women are literally forced to read fake information before consenting to abortion.
Even more specifically, it will stop safe, legal abortions for working class, and poor people - middle class & higher can just take a little vacation to Mexico.
This doesn't even take into the account that some of the bills that have the possibility of being passed that allow punishment for any abortion, whether it's on state grounds or not.
 

taz'smum

'Be Kind' - every skater has their own story
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3,215
Maybe but The UK actually has more conservative abortion law than most American states! Maybe that’s why it’s a done deal. The Supreme Court in 1973 was like abortion any time any place and since then US has been making its laws more conservative but still not as conservative as UK

@caseyedwards Edwards, I wish you'd do your research before talking about other countries!

The UK as a whole does not have conservative abortion laws, only Northern Ireland does!

In England, Scotland and Wales, you can legally have an abortion at up to 23 weeks and 6 days of pregnancy, in line with the Abortion Act 1967.
https://www.msichoices.org.uk/abortion-services/abortion-and-your-rights/#:~:text=In England, Scotland and Wales,legally travel to receive treatment.

Also, in Northern Ireland the abortion laws were changed in 2020.

Abortion is now legal in all circumstances in Northern Ireland in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. When the pregnancy poses a risk to the woman's physical or mental health, the time limit is 24 weeks.

Abortions are permitted at any time up to birth when there has been a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality or where the child is likely to suffer severe mental or physical impairment.
 
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caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,249
@caseyedwards Edwards, I wish you'd do your research before talking about other countries!

The UK as a whole does not have conservative abortion laws, only Northern Ireland does!

In England, Scotland and Wales, you can legally have an abortion at up to 23 weeks and 6 days of pregnancy, in line with the Abortion Act 1967.
https://www.msichoices.org.uk/abortion-services/abortion-and-your-rights/#:~:text=In England, Scotland and Wales,legally travel to receive treatment.

Also, in Northern Ireland the abortion laws were changed in 2020.

Abortion is now legal in all circumstances in Northern Ireland in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. When the pregnancy poses a risk to the woman's physical or mental health, the time limit is 24 weeks.

Abortions are permitted at any time up to birth when there has been a diagnosis of a fatal foetal abnormality or where the child is likely to suffer severe mental or physical impairment.
I said more conservative. You need two doctors to approve it!. So that’s incredible. In the US doctors aren’t even necessary in some states. New York just said “physician assistants, nurse practitioners, and licensed midwives” can do abortions. So the fact that in UK you need two doctors means UK is far more conservative than America
 

Yazmeen

All we are saying, is give peace a chance
Messages
5,801
Takes a special kind of clueless to think that outlawing abortion will stop abortions.
I believe I've told this story before, so I apologize if I'm repeating myself.

Years ago when I was a practicing GYN before I switched fields, an article in a GYN newsmagazine (not a peer-reviewed journal) showed the results of an informal survey one abortion clinic manager ran. She asked her fellow clinic owners, managers, employees one question: "Have you ever performed an abortion on one of the "pro-life" people who protests at your clinic?"

Now this sound like something where she'd get very few "yes" responses, doesn't it? Care to BET???? The floodgates opened - she got DOZENS of responses in the affirmative. The most frequent reason cited was "I'm a special case" (meaning not like those "others"). There was always an excuse why it was okay for them but not for others: age, income, health reasons. They seemed to think that if they had a "reason," it was alright. It never seemed to occur to them that other patients had "reasons" and weren't just aborting for convenience or selfishness.

The wildest story was one clinic manager setting up the procedure ridiculous early before the clinic opened for the women who LED the protests every week (she was a "special case," you see) so that no other patients would be there. After the procedure was completed and the patient was ready for discharge, the clinic owner went up to her and offered her hand to shake as a gesture of decency.

The patient refused the hand and said "May God forgive you for what you've done," turned on her heel and walked out. She was back leading the line at the very next protest.

The clinic owner said it took all her strength not to go out there, grab this woman and shout to her "followers" about what she had done. Instead, she went home with a massive headache.

Pro-life, MY ASS. Only when it conveniences THEM and the can exert their self-appointed superiority over others.
 
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