2022 Four Continents Comes To Rude Euro Land (Relocation to Tallinn)

Brenda_Bottems

Banned Member
Messages
801
Hahaha! A nude portrait of mine got sold for a lot of money many years ago
Surely there has to be more to the story,dear! Do kiss and tell.

Unfortunately,I fear tasteful erotic portraits are a lost art in this day and age.

I think Shirene Human is more likely to come out of retirement.
That would be a most welcome development. Figure skating today desperately needs the classic,conservative influence of Carol Heiss.

-BB
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
Messages
17,116
@Orm Irian I don't disagree with you, but if equity is a concern, would the sport be better served by having four regional championships instead of the current two?

1) Middle East / Eastern Europeans,
2) Western Europeans / Africa,
3) India / Asia / Australia / NZ; and
4) North and South America

It might mean less travel and it might give more countries the opportunity to develop their judges to an international standard.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
38,171
@Orm Irian I don't disagree with you, but if equity is a concern, would the sport be better served by having four regional championships instead of the current two?

1) Middle East / Eastern Europeans,
2) Western Europeans / Africa,
3) India / Asia / Australia / NZ; and
4) North and South America

It might mean less travel and it might give more countries the opportunity to develop their judges to an international standard.
We are such a long way from having serious programs in Africa. Happily, South America is finally submitting competitors from Peru, Ecuador and Chile to join Brazil and Argentina. This plan will look good next decade.
 

Sylvia

Rooting for underdogs!
Messages
68,652
Speaking of Shirene Human ;), this article was published before South Africa's Matthew Samuels competed at Nebelhorn Trophy:
The last South African to qualify for the Winter Games was Shirene Human in 1998. Samuels was not even born then. Human retired in 2005, a year before Samuels first took up the sport. But his legendary status meant everyone in South African figure skating circles knew about his career and achievements.
And Samuels has done his homework on Human over the years. The Weekend Argus managed to find the nine-time national champion. We asked Human if she would like to record a surprise video for Matthew, one that would inspire her on her qualification journey. And, like a rock star, she did.
 

Bunny Hop

Queen of the Workaround
Messages
7,197
This is technically possible. Skate Ontario has been doing video hub competition since last years sectional. 2020 Challenge was also done this way.
Technically possible, yes, but would kind of suck for those skaters who would have to skate in the middle of the night - even assuming they could make arrangements locally to have a rink open especially for that purpose out of hours.
 

Erin

Banned Member
Messages
10,473
Technically possible, yes, but would kind of suck for those skaters who would have to skate in the middle of the night - even assuming they could make arrangements locally to have a rink open especially for that purpose out of hours.

The Canadian video competitions were done with pre-recorded videos in a specific time frame that was monitored by an official to verify that it was only done once. Then they were aired and the judging was done live. So in theory, the only people getting up in the middle of the night would be whichever judges who fall on the wrong end of the stick (although I assume it would be possible to try to organize things so that a minimum of judges are disrupted too).

I don’t see this happening for an international competition though, although I think track and field did it back in the early p*ndemic days. But I think there are a number of reasons why I don’t think it will happen for skating.
 

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,972
Canada hasn't bid on a 4CC (other than the Olympic test event) in almost twenty years, so I wouldn't expect them to start now.
They could use sportsplexe quatre glace. I am not sure what Laval centre is doing but Quatre glace has been open since July 2020. They have 4 rinks so a practice rink and a big rink could be used. Not much room for spectators but they be strict about who can come to be safe and healthy.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,963
I think it should be canceled ASAP. It has been not only a crappy yeas but an unstable year. Wear a mask...don't wear a mask. Go to school....on just kidding.

I think it would be best for skaters $$$ etc if it were canceled and everyone focused on worlds.

I know, it is another completion and chance for skaters to hone their skills..But it is also tough on the body, long flights, time changes, risking another countries ********* restrictions or problems.

Could someone make a chart of pros and cons...and give each a numeric value?

And the rest of us can take a deep breath and remember it sport. It is not a ********* breakthrough or a cure for cancer, aides or the environment.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,424
If no host is found for 4CCs then one of two things needs to happen with regard to Europeans because it is not fair to the 4CCs skaters to lose the ISU Championship points they'd earn at 4CCs while the Euro skaters get them, especially going into next season but also for both the Olympics and Worlds:

1) Cancel Europeans entirely
2) Do not award WS points for Europeans this year

Taking away the WS points from Euros is probably the most fair and equitable way of handling the cancellation of 4CCs without punishing the Europeans skaters or depressing the ISU's income further - they need this event too.
 

euterpe

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,568
But the European competitors will still get SB---and we know how inflated Euros scores can be. That was fine when 4CC provided inflated scoring as well, but with 4CC scrubbed, that is not fair to skaters from non-European countries.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
Messages
13,963
But the European competitors will still get SB---and we know how inflated Euros scores can be. That was fine when 4CC provided inflated scoring as well, but with 4CC scrubbed, that is not fair to skaters from non-European countries.
Well that is simple enough. In factor it in somehow. Don't count it. Put an footnote. Take a total of the skaters, note how many competitions they were in, and divide into SB scores.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,980
But the European competitors will still get SB---and we know how inflated Euros scores can be. That was fine when 4CC provided inflated scoring as well, but with 4CC scrubbed, that is not fair to skaters from non-European countries.
Really, do tell - how inflated are scores at Europeans?

Let's look at ISU personal best scores to see how many of them were given at Euros since the scoring changes in 2018.
Men
Women
Pairs
Dance

Using the search feature, that doesn't look like a lot compared to other events, such as, say, 4CC and Worlds. Funnily enough, more pairs got their PBs at the World Team Trophy than at Euros/4CCs, even though only six pairs compete at each WTT. Do you know which event is really good for PBs, though? Nebelhorn. Presumably because more people can compete there than at GPs and ISU Championships. Also there have been more NTs in this timeframe.

I do agree with @Karen-W that if there's only one continental championship this season, it shouldn't count towards world standings. Though I do question the fairness of the points under normal circumstances, given that countries can automatically send three entries to 4CC (assuming they have the minimums) while countries must qualify spots for Euros. I'm sure the FFSG would love to send more than one guy to Euros this season! Unfortunately, they can't.
 
Last edited:

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
34,821
Though I do question the fairness of the points under normal circumstances, given that countries can automatically send three entries to 4CC (assuming they have the minimums) while countries must qualify spots for Euros. I'm sure the FFSG would love to send more than one guy to Euros this season! Unfortunately, they can't.
A few years back, I did an analysis here of the places for the four strongest Feds at 4C's (CHN, USA, JPN, CAN) and in only a couple of cases in the history of 4C's until that time-- at least one was Japanese Men -- would the nation have had two spots instead of three, and in all cases, they would have gotten back the third spot the next season. And that was with many of the top skaters skipping 4C's.

For the rest of the nations, TES minimums, which are low for Euros/4C's/OWG, have eliminated most of the (extra)/competitors. In the case of AUS, the outlying top skaters would have been there anyway. Occasionally, there have been two competitive skaters, like two women for AUS and two men for PHI, but they would have qualified two anyway. And, like for many Euros nations, a strong competitor, like Kerry of AUS, would place high enough to ensure that an up-and-comer would have a second spot.

At the bottom of the WS and SB lists, which is where nearly all marginal competitors end up -- and, again, most have been eliminated through TES minimums -- there is little to be gained from SB and WS earned at 4C's. There is an edge case where a new team getting any WS points on the board keeps them from being unseeded, or a SB gets them a GP substitution spot for the following year. The single skater/team that qualifies for Worlds would qualify for Worlds anyway; the extra would not.

It's at the top or middle that those championship SB's and WS points are critical, the former for non-Worlds particpants in next year's GP selection, and the latter for Worlds seeding and next season's GP seeding. Some of the OWG skaters don't go to Worlds, and their subs, who would compete at 4C's, need those seeding points for Worlds.

Extra,marginal participants at 4C's doesn't equal no 4C's Championship WS points when WS at Euros are awarded.

I don't have a snapshot of the last pre-cv SB lists after 4C's to see what percentage of skaters have their highest SB's before Worlds from Euros/4C's, so I can't speak to the relative impact on the SB list. Skaters training in outside Europe and Russia have a timezone/proximity challenge for CS events in which to earn SB's, and skaters from Euro nations are often the appointed alternates for CoR and TEB, which give more chances for earning SB's, something generally more sparse for 4C's countries members, due to cost, travel time, acclimation, re-acclimation, and impact on the skaters' training schedules, especially for those who have lesser Fed support, like Carillo, the men from the Philippines, and the last time I heard, neither the Australian and New Zealand Feds aren't swimming in travel budgets.
 
Last edited:

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
Messages
34,821
Unless there is an unusually strict technical panel, I'd expect scores from Championships to be higher than earlier season events. Skaters have gotten early season feedback by then from international competition, and, in the case of some of the larger Feds, test events, Masters, internal camps, etc. They are aiming to peak for regional championships if their results are to qualify for OWG or Worlds, and if they aren't going to Worlds, to establish themselves at a Championship. Championships are larger events than GPs, except maybe for 4C's Pairs, and scores tend to rise over the course of events, especially ones where start order is seeded.

Most aspects of Championship scores do not result in inflation.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,052
With nations like the USA, JPN and KOR that have significant depth in their singles categories, being competitive with other great skaters at Four Continents (who may not make a world team) still makes for a very exciting competition.

Also, for some skaters where they may not make the World TES, a Challenger Series or Four Continents invite is still very prestigious.
 

manhn

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,838
Is discounting the depth of competition at 4CC still a thing? I will say it for the 20th time, but 2009 4CC will remain the best skating competition I ever attended in person. The competition was strong, the performance quality was high, and the crowd support was immense (Japanese fans are intense!). And I have pretty much seen every high level senior skating competition in person at some point—Olympics, Worlds, GPF, and two Grand Prix. Just no Euros yet.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,052
Is discounting the depth of competition at 4CC still a thing? I will say it for the 20th time, but 2009 4CC will remain the best skating competition I ever attended in person. The competition was strong, the performance quality was high, and the crowd support was immense (Japanese fans are intense!). And I have pretty much seen every high level senior skating competition in person at some point—Olympics, Worlds, GPF, and two Grand Prix. Just no Euros yet.
The ladies' free skate in 2020 was fabulous. So many incredible performances from the top 10.

For as long as I can remember, Europeans seems to be Russian Nationals, and then everyone else.

In women's singles, there is significant technical drop-off beyond the top five or six.
Not that it is a bad thing. What some of the athletes lack in jumping fireworks, they more than make up for it with their performance.

2009 FC was great. I saw that in person as well. From memory, I believe the competition was used as the official Olympic test event. So, everyone sent their A Teams, too.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information