2022 Four Continents Comes To Rude Euro Land (Relocation to Tallinn)

barbarafan

Well-Known Member
Messages
4,905
I think if the US hosted it, there would be very few top level competitors. It's less than a month before Beijing Olympics, which probably means a lot of the top tier skaters from Asia will simply not go, which already means fewer spectators will be pulled towards attending the event. Further, US Nationals being only a few days before an American 4CC will mean that most Americans will opt for Nationals tickets. Top tier Americans will likely not attend the event, either, as they usually skip 4CCs in the Olympic year, and let the B-team go (unless Vincent Zhou and Alysa Liu would like to add a major senior title to their collection before the Olympics, I guess).

The attractive part about keeping 4CCs in Asia before Beijing OWG was that it will still get some of the top tier skaters from Japan, Korea, and China, who will treat it as a warm-up event, without having to go halfway across the world. It will still likely pull the B-tier American team that will attend 4CC anyway. Assuming spectators are allowed at this event, it will pull an Asian audience that wanted to go to the OWG, but can't because spectators aren't allowed. So personally, I hope an Asian country gets it, but recognize their policies might interfere with a bid.

(Sorry if I messed up any of the details about when and where the competitions happen, or if spectators are or aren't allowed. 😓)
no....in Laval off the island of mtl
 

Carolla5501

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,358
Wasn't it cancelled one other time and "rescued" by USFS in Colorado Springs.

Honestly I can see them doing it again.


And I expect the ISU has already hit some places up and knows a federation that will step up. Just the way the release is worded
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,052
Four Continents has always suffered from the tyranny of distance.

No matter where it is held, many of the competitors often have to travel what seems like half way across the world to attend.

Too bad North Americans weren't relaunched to include countries in South America, and that a comparable Asian / Oceanic competition wasn't held at the same time as well.

If Sydney wasn't in such a state of abject chaos with their clown car of a state government's handling of *********-19 outbreaks, maybe they could have offered an emergency bid in 2022.
 
Last edited:

Orm Irian

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,255
Trying to decide if I’d consider Lake Placid in January. :cold:

I think most Oly-bound skaters would skip it.

If by 'most' you mean 'skaters from the US, Canada and Japan whose federations like showing off their status by letting their best shirk a major championship '. I promise you if Matthew Samuels somehow qualifies a place for RSA at Nebelhorn he will not be allowed to just 'skip' FCC 'because Olympics'.
 

tony

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,157
If by 'most' you mean 'skaters from the US, Canada and Japan whose federations like showing off their status by letting their best shirk a major championship '. I promise you if Matthew Samuels somehow qualifies a place for RSA at Nebelhorn he will not be allowed to just 'skip' FCC 'because Olympics'.
This is a bit extreme, IMO. The skaters can't help that the timing is so close to the Olympics and that it always falls after Europeans. If the Olympics happened to fall in North America and Europeans came after 4CC, I'd expect the same kind of strategic planning as far as not having all top skaters attend. (and an ETA here is that the US and Canada have their Nationals after the New Year, anyways, so that's very little downtime to have them doing Nationals, 4CC, and Olympics all within one month).

If it opens up the opportunity for skaters to get to compete in major ISU Championships who otherwise wouldn't have gone, what's the problem? Samuels would probably want to compete as much as he can, as he would be fighting to make the free skate at the Olympics- not fighting for the top 10 or even for medals.

No one is showing off 'status' by spreading opportunity and/or allowing skaters to focus on their bigger events :rolleyes: and there's no requirement for top skaters to attend any competition at all. Federations can and have skipped past the winner or even the silver medalist from their own Nationals in determining who goes to the Olympics/Worlds.
 
Last edited:

Lacey

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,817
I can see the US doing it, but, two weeks after nationals, it would have to be far away from Nashville in order to hope to get volunteers...

Either Boston, Colorado Springs or Salt Lake City or Las Vegas?

I have the dates of 4CCs being 1/16/22-1/21/22.

Am I off the walls if I say I think there is Short Track Speed Skating scheduled for
1/14/22-1/16/22 in Salt Lake, would it work to have 4CCs there right after Short Track?

Finally, Las Vegas has proven to be a good choice for not major competition...is it too soon after Skate America?
 
Last edited:

Tavi

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,091
If by 'most' you mean 'skaters from the US, Canada and Japan whose federations like showing off their status by letting their best shirk a major championship '. I promise you if Matthew Samuels somehow qualifies a place for RSA at Nebelhorn he will not be allowed to just 'skip' FCC 'because Olympics'.
I can’t speak for other feds, but in an Olympic year the US Fed always sends different teams to 4CCs and the Olympics because of the timing. As to other years, not quite sure what you’re complaining about: in 2020, for example, right before the *********, participants in men included Yuzu, Yuma, Jason Brown, Roman S, and Nam and the other disciplines were equally strong. In 2019, men included Nathan, Vincent, Jason, Shoma, Nam, and Keegan, among others, and again, the other disciplines were equally strong. And in both years, there were great competitors from other feds.
 

FSWer

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,758
From my colleague at Figure Skaters Online, a list of competitions that were originally scheduled for China but then cancelled:

2018 Shanghai Trophy
2018 Cup of China
2020 Asian Open
2020-21 Grand Prix Final (ISU or joint ISU/China decision: CV19)
2021 Junior Worlds (ISU or joint ISU/China decision: CV19)
2021 Cup of China
2022 Four Continents
Oh gee..Will we ever be able to have a competition again without having to worry about it being cancelled?
 

Marco

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,925
If the schedule remains unchanged, the US is a good idea and most likely going to attract the US Team A to finally compete at 4CCs, or even use it as a final skate-off if results are close at Nationals.

Alternatively I would also love it if Korea gets it because their skaters aside from Young You didn't get much chance of international competition since CV-19 started and don't even have a home GP to compete in like Japan. I don't know what travel restrictions between Korea and Japan are going to be like but if there are none / minimal, then having the 4CCs at Japan will work too - the Koreans can go, and either Japanese Team A or Team B are good enough. But I am guessing no Team A from US and Canada.

If the schedule is to be changed, I agree with holding it after Olympics. Is there a WTT type competition this season? If yes then 4CCs can be between Olympics and Worlds; if no then 4CCs can be after Worlds.
 

seabm7

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,912
If the schedule remains unchanged, the US is a good idea and most likely going to attract the US Team A to finally compete at 4CCs, or even use it as a final skate-off if results are close at Nationals.

Alternatively I would also love it if Korea gets it because their skaters aside from Young You didn't get much chance of international competition since CV-19 started and don't even have a home GP to compete in like Japan. I don't know what travel restrictions between Korea and Japan are going to be like but if there are none / minimal, then having the 4CCs at Japan will work too - the Koreans can go, and either Japanese Team A or Team B are good enough. But I am guessing no Team A from US and Canada.

If the schedule is to be changed, I agree with holding it after Olympics. Is there a WTT type competition this season? If yes then 4CCs can be between Olympics and Worlds; if no then 4CCs can be after Worlds.

I got the impression that the major funding source of the event in Korea was the host city and sponsors. This means KSU needs preparation time to secure the sponsorship money. The new KSU president runs a BBQ chicken company. We saw evidences/heard rumors that the president supplied enough chickens to athletes, but I'm not sure if he wants to pursue this 4CC opportunity given the time frame.
 
Last edited:

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,057
You know, I'm really bothered by this narrative that some people here are trying to perpetuate about the USA or CAN not supporting 4CCs, especially during Olympic seasons. So, being a research geek, I went back and compared the 4CCs entries to the Olympics entries every year since 2002, as well as the locations of 4CCs compared to the Olympics.

For what it's worth, the dates of 4CCs have, during the Olympic year, pretty consistently, been the 4th week of January. Euros have, during Olympics years, been the 3rd week of January. I'm sure that this scheduling of 4CCs has been to accommodate the US and Canada, because both countries usually hold their Nationals during the 2nd or 3rd weeks of January during non-Olympic years and they both move them up to the 1st or 2nd week of January (depending on how the calendar falls) during the Olympic year in order to fit 4CCs into the calendar.

There has been exactly ONE Olympic year in which 4CCs and the Olympics were on the same continent - 2018.

2002 - Jeonju KOR / Salt Lake City
2006 - Colorado Springs USA / Torino
2010 - Jeonju KOR / Vancouver
2014 - Taipei TPE / Sochi
2018 - Taipei TPE / Pyeongchang

***Looking at this list, I feel like there is some sort of subliminal message here to Colorado Springs to step up and offer to host, lol.

Going over the entrants lists of both 4CCs and the Olympics since 2002, there are some interesting observations...

Brazil sent 1 Lady 2014 and 1 Lady 2018 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in the Ladies discipline to 4CCs
China sent 3 Men 2002, 3 Pairs 2006 and 3 Pairs 2018 to the Olympics while not sending three entrants in those disciplines to 4CCs
Japan sent 1 Pairs 2014, 1 Dance 2010 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in those disciplines to 4CCs
North Korea sent 1 Man 2006, 1 Man 2010, 1 Lady 2006, 1 Pairs 2006 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in those disciplines to 4CCs – why should we give them a pass because 4CCs was held in South Korea and the USA those years?
Philippines sent 1 Man 2018 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in the men’s discipline to 4CCs
South Korea sent 1 Man 2002 and 1 Dance team 2002 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in those disciplines to 4CCs (which they HOSTED)
Uzbekistan sent 1 Pairs 2002 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in the pairs discipline to 4CCs

Meanwhile, Canada missed sending a full team to 4CCs with three entrants in each discipline twice – once in 2002 (only two dance teams), and once in 2014 (only two pairs teams); and the USA has missed sending a full team to 4CCs with three entrants in each discipline just once – in 2006 (only two pairs teams)

Top 10 Olympic finishers who skipped 4CCs from each year include:
2002 - Elvis Stojko, Li Chengjiang, Timothy Goebel, Todd Eldredge, Michael Weiss, Fumie Suguri, Sarah Hughes, Michelle Kwan, Sasha Cohen, Sale/Pelletier, Shen/Zhao, Ina/Zimmerman, Bourne/Kraatz
2006 - Jeffrey Buttle, Zhang Min, Daisuke Takahashi, Evan Lysacek, Johnny Weir, Joannie Rochette, Shizuka Arakawa, Fumie Suguri, Sasha Cohen, Kimmie Meissner, Emily Hughes, Dube/Davison, Pang/Tong, Zhang/Zhang, Shen/Zhao, Inoue/Baldwin
2010 - Patrick Chan, Takahiko Kozuka, Nobunari Oda, Daisuke Takahashi, Jeremy Abbott, Evan Lysacek, Johnny Weir, Joannie Rochette, Miki Ando, Yuna Kim, Rachael Flatt, Mirai Nagasu, Dube/Davison, Langlois/Hay, Shen/Zhao, Pang/Tong, Evora/Ladwig, Virtue/Moir, Davis/White, Belbin/Agosto
2014 - Patrick Chan, Yan Han, Yuzuru Hanyu, Tatsuki Machida, Daisuke Takahashi, Jason Brown, Akiko Suzuki, Mao Asada, Yuna Kim, Gracie Gold, Ashley Wagner, Polina Edmunds, Moore-Towers/Moscovitch, Duhamel/Radford, Pang/Tong, Peng/Zhang, Castelli/Shnapir, Virtue/Moir, Weaver/Poje, Davis/White, Chock/Bates, Shibutani/Shibutani
2018 - Patrick Chan, Yuzuru Hanyu, Adam Rippon, Vincent Zhou, Nathan Chen, Katelyn Osmond, Bradie Tennell, Mirai Nagasu, Duhamel/Radford, Seguin/Bilodeau, Sui/Han, Yu/Zhang, Virtue/Moir, Weaver/Poje, Gilles/Poirier, Shibutani/Shibutani, Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donohue

Seems like pretty much ANY athlete who has even a remote shot at the podium (and even some who aren't making it to the Free) skips 4CCs to train for the Olympics, and it's been done by the four major 4CCs nations routinely since 2002, with South Korea doing it in for Kim in both 2010 and 2014.

Frankly, with the advent of TES minimums, I'm not sure what more any of the posters here can expect of the 4CCs countries.
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,057
If the schedule remains unchanged, the US is a good idea and most likely going to attract the US Team A to finally compete at 4CCs, or even use it as a final skate-off if results are close at Nationals.
Would people give this tired, false narrative a rest? The US sends its A team to 4CCs almost every season. Yes, a handful of skaters have chosen to decline but this really hasn't been true of our participation or support for 4CCs in over a decade. Once the ISU started awarding WS points for the event and began using the WS to determine starting groups at major championships and the Olympics, our skaters realized that they needed to participate more frequently than they had been. And, honestly, the US A team for both pairs and dance has almost always been sent since the very beginning of 4CCs.

In addition, the US has hosted the event FIVE times, which is second only to South Korea's seven, and one more than Taiwan. The last time the US hosted was 2019 and it was a highly successful event.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
Messages
51,532
Will this affect China's future hosting opportunities? Having to cancel two events seems like too much mismanagement.
 

seabm7

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,912
South Korea sent 1 Man 2002 and 1 Dance team 2002 to the Olympics while not sending ANY entrants in those disciplines to 4CCs (which they HOSTED)
South Korea did send 1 Dance team to 2002 4CC, which they hosted.
 

Rob

Beach Bum
Messages
14,914
Trying to decide if I’d consider Lake Placid in January. :cold:

I think most Oly-bound skaters would skip it.
I went in February one year, nice if you like skiing. I don't ski anymore and i just went there this summer so not for me!
 

Rob

Beach Bum
Messages
14,914
I disagree about the USFS not wanting to host an ISU Championships so soon after Nationals. If that was the case, they wouldn't have submitted a bid in the first place back in pre-C19 days.


How good are the Raiders this year? If they're likely to make the playoffs then we can probably rule Vegas out.

Do we know what the timeline for the Lake Placid rink repairs is? If they weren't able to host LPIDI this year because of the renovations then they probably aren't an option for January.

From a travel perspective, be the easiest/most accessible for most athletes competing. Boston is a major travel hub and the SCoB facility looks gorgeous from the pictures and their website.

From an organizational perspective, Colorado Springs would probably be the easiest though it's not as easy to travel there for many athletes - multiple flight transfers, etc.

My guess, though, if the USFS does submit a bid, it will be either Norwood or Colorado Springs, since both of the sites in question would be very easy to organize not only a competition bubble and both have secondary practice rinks on site.
Raiders beat the Ravens, but its just been a week, won't know till much later in the NFL season.
Lake Placid was a construction zone when I was there in July - outdoor rink completely torn up, machinery in front of Olympic Center and a couple of buildings on Main Street torn down for larger hotel-looking buildings to be built. Sidewalk closed in a lot of places.
 

screech

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,511
I don't know how anyone could expect North American countries to send their top skaters to 4CC in Asia in an Olympic year. It's just not feasible.
I feel like Canada and the US view 4CC as more optional and non-important even in a non-Olympic year because it's so far out of the way. It the last 10 years, it has taken place in North America just twice. The turn-around is too quick for a skater to travel from NA to Asia, back to NA, then off to wherever Worlds is. It throws their system completely out of whack with little to no time for recovery. A 12-ish hour time difference (and 12-ish hour flights) for 4CC competitors, compared to 1-2 hours for Europeans.

Those 2 years where it was in NA (2012 and 2019), most of the top NA skaters did attend. While I doubt it will really happen, feasibly it would make a lot more sense for there to be an Americas championship and an Australasia championship.
 

Colonel Green

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,140
I feel like Canada and the US view 4CC as more optional and non-important even in a non-Olympic year because it's so far out of the way. It the last 10 years, it has taken place in North America just twice. The turn-around is too quick for a skater to travel from NA to Asia, back to NA, then off to wherever Worlds is. It throws their system completely out of whack with little to no time for recovery. A 12-ish hour time difference (and 12-ish hour flights) for 4CC competitors, compared to 1-2 hours for Europeans.

Those 2 years where it was in NA (2012 and 2019), most of the top NA skaters did attend.
This is not really a thing anymore. Non-Olympic Four Continents used to be a skippable event in its first 10-15 years (except if you were an ice dancer, because you always need those WS points), but in the last ten years that isn't so. In the last quad the only notable person who deliberately eschews 4CC is Nathan Chen, and that's because it doesn't fit his university schedule; there are always other skaters who miss it, but that's down to individual circumstances (injuries or training issues, largely). The 2020 4CC had almost everybody you would expect to see there in attendance.
While I doubt it will really happen, feasibly it would make a lot more sense for there to be an Americas championship and an Australasia championship.
Those don't actually make much sense from a competition standpoint because there aren't enough actual participant countries to make either of those events meaningful (and certainly not competitions that warrant being on the equal level to Euros).
 

Tahuu

Well-Known Member
Messages
297
I can see the US doing it, but, two weeks after nationals, it would have to be far away from Nashville in order to hope to get volunteers...

Either Boston, Colorado Springs or Salt Lake City or Las Vegas?

I have the dates of 4CCs being 1/16/22-1/21/22.

Am I off the walls if I say I think there is Short Track Speed Skating scheduled for
1/14/22-1/16/22 in Salt Lake, would it work to have 4CCs there right after Short Track?

Finally, Las Vegas has proven to be a good choice for not major competition...is it too soon after Skate America?

USFS has to move truckload of equipment from Colorado Springs to site of competition. Following Nationals in Nashville on 1/9/2022, it would be easier to have 4CC in Nashville or move the stuff to Colorado Springs or Las Vegas, not Boston in the winter.
 

Lacey

Well-Known Member
Messages
11,817
USFS has to move truckload of equipment from Colorado Springs to site of competition. Following Nationals in Nashville on 1/9/2022, it would be easier to have 4CC in Nashville or move the stuff to Colorado Springs or Las Vegas, not Boston in the winter.
Thanks, very interesting!
 

Karen-W

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,057
USFS has to move truckload of equipment from Colorado Springs to site of competition. Following Nationals in Nashville on 1/9/2022, it would be easier to have 4CC in Nashville or move the stuff to Colorado Springs or Las Vegas, not Boston in the winter.
Is this stuff being moved via ground or rail? I'm hard pressed to imagine the issues with moving a ton of equipment to Boston are much different than returning the equipment to Colorado Springs. You're still going to traverse through the major snow regions of the country. The only difference is bringing the equipment back to Colorado Springs would eliminate any transportation costs since the return trip from Nats is built into the Nats budget already (i can definitely see that as a benefit to stepping up to host an event like 4CCs on 4 months notice).
 

Dai's Blues for Klook

Active Member
Messages
102
Wouldn't it make more sense to let the North American countries participate in Euros? I agree the main reason we won't have "Pan-American Championships" and "Australasian Championships" is because of very few countries in either of those competitions. But if we let North and South American skaters to Euros (and rename it to something else), and let Africa, Asia, and Oceania to 4CCs (to be renamed 3CCs), that would solve the geographical problems, at least.

Would people give this tired, false narrative a rest? The US sends its A team to 4CCs almost every season. Yes, a handful of skaters have chosen to decline but this really hasn't been true of our participation or support for 4CCs in over a decade. Once the ISU started awarding WS points for the event and began using the WS to determine starting groups at major championships and the Olympics, our skaters realized that they needed to participate more frequently than they had been. And, honestly, the US A team for both pairs and dance has almost always been sent since the very beginning of 4CCs.

In addition, the US has hosted the event FIVE times, which is second only to South Korea's seven, and one more than Taiwan. The last time the US hosted was 2019 and it was a highly successful event.

In the Olympic year though? I mean, just in 2018, they didn't send the A-team for any of the four disciplines. And it was understandable. I doubt if it happened in the States this season, the A-team would go, because again, it's less than a month to go before the Olympics, RIGHT after nationals, and if I'm correct that most of their major competitors won't even be there, it would literally only be useful if someone wants a freebie major title or WS (attractive, surely, but have to measure the expense of training against these benefits).
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information