2021 Men FS - Voulez-Pooh

skateboy

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7,323
Welllllll... I'll be a slightly different opinion. Of course he's technically ambitious, but the program really doesn't come alive until the step sequence in the middle. And what a beautiful sequence that is, it completely changes the mood and Shae knew what she was doing.

Johnny's arguing point to Tara, that she didn't let him finish, was that Yuzuru had a small chance to still pull it off, even with one less quad because his elements may receive higher GOE and I actually 100% agree with that. It's one thing missing from Nathan still- just a bit more variety going into/out of some of the jumps to get +4's consistently and maybe even some +5's. Of course the judges still give him some, but I always feel like his GOE average should probably be one lower than he receives just based on the criteria. Then again, Yuzuru has some crazy transitions surrounding his jumps and it surely makes them even more difficult to get right.

Nathan really is capable of setting a mood through an entire program, and I understand the work it takes to do the quads he is doing, but I just want a littttttttle bit of something prior to the steps. From that point on, though, just remarkable. Is it Kolyada level masterpiece? No, simply because it's not consistent throughout. But it's also not even close to crap. See Semenenko's attempt at a program for that.

For me, it would've been something like Kolyada.........Brown....Aymoz..Chen.. in terms of overall PCS in the LP. And that's even with me being no fan of Brown's program.
Fair enough... different strokes.

I just don't think Hanyu's body carriage and positions, along with his "artistry" stands up to Nathan at this point. And check again... Hanyu's transitions weren't on point in this program. Watch carefully. Hanyu does have beautiful (and better) outflow from his jumps... when he hits them.
 

tony

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Fair enough... different strokes.

I just don't think Hanyu's body carriage and positions, along with his "artistry" stands up to Nathan at this point. And check again... Hanyu's transitions weren't on point in this program. Watch carefully. Hanyu does have beautiful (and better) outflow from his jumps... when he hits them.
I didn’t even put Hanyu in my clumping of top PCS scores. 😆 I certainly think he’s not doing much of anything as of late, and that SP is a total joke/we’ve seen the LP with different music before.
 

skateboy

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I didn’t even put Hanyu in my clumping of top PCS scores. 😆 I certainly think he’s not doing much of anything as of late, and that SP is a total joke/we’ve seen the LP with different music before.
Thank you. I honestly think Hanyu was scored generously to get 4th in the free skate.

Of course, he's one of the greatest competitors ever. He's had some fantastic moments and there are exceptional qualities to his skating. I love his outflow, when he hits. But we are now into the Quad Lutz, Quad Flip era. Anyone who has ever skated knows that those jumps (even on the level of single rotations) are far harder than loop. salchow and toe loop. It's just... true. And Hanyu doesn't have them. (Okay, an occasional Lutz. And Nathan has landed more Loops in competition than Yuzu has Lutzes.)

As for the PCS... I'm sorry, but Nathan has improved consistently each year. Hanyu has not.

While I'm not a Fanyu, I do appreciate him. And winning two Olympic golds is a damn impressive accomplishment. But -- let's be honest -- 2014 was a mess, in terms of the men's event. 99% of fans had Patrick Chan pegged for Olympic gold, and for good reason. Yuzu was nowhere near Patrick's level of beautiful skating skills at that time (and frankly, still isn't). Yuzuru's SP was great, but his free skate was bad... even he knew it. He didn't expect to win. Who knew that Patrick would have an even worse meltdown? IMO, Yuzu earned the gold medal, but Denis Ten should have won the long program.

In 2018, Nathan absolutely bombed the SP. We all know it. Yuzu's SP was fabulous. But Nathan won the free skate by a huge margin. Yuzu's was mediocre (by his standards), and he did not even receive 2nd place scores from all of the judges.

Sorry. I'm on a tangent. I get a little miffed when Yuzu is considered the GOAT, based on his two Olympic wins. Is he great? Of course he is. When he can do what Nathan can do... I'll be the first to jump on his bandwagon.

In the meantime... I'm all about Nathan.

I would never count Yuzu out. He's a fighter. This is the most exciting time in men's skating we've ever seen. How lucky are we?
 

BittyBug

The missing ingredient
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23,238
It’s not just Hanyu’s 2 Olympic wins. Hanyu is the reason Nathan is doing 5 quads - because it’s the only way he can beat him. All those difficult jump entries that people are trying? Hanyu. Back counter into 3 axel? Hanyu. Spread eagle into and out of jumps? Hanyu.

And while I love Chen, the quality of Hanyu”s blade work is superior. Watch the opening of his Chopin short. He covers almost half the rink with one simple turn (can’t remember it’s a bracket or counter). We don’t see those type of sweeping sustained edges from Chen, who is more the Paul Wylie type of super fast footwork.

There’s no question that Hanyu was not his best today, but please give the man his due. Not because of his 2 Olympic championships, but for what he has done on the ice over more than a decade.
 

skateboy

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It’s not just Hanyu’s 2 Olympic wins. Hanyu is the reason Nathan is doing 5 quads - because it’s the only way he can beat him. All those difficult jump entries that people are trying? Hanyu. Back counter into 3 axel? Hanyu. Spread eagle into and out of jumps? Hanyu.

And while I love Chen, the quality of Hanyu”s blade work is superior. Watch the opening of his Chopin short. He covers almost half the rink with one simple turn (can’t remember it’s a bracket or counter). We don’t see those type of sweeping sustained edges from Chen, who is more the Paul Wylie type of super fast footwork.

There’s no question that Hanyu was not his best today, but please give the man his due. Not because of his 2 Olympic championships, but for what he has done on the ice over more than a decade.
Hanyu is wonderful, no doubt. Hanyu's blade work in his past Chopin program is not what we're seeing today. It happens.

But the real reason everyone is now attempting quad Lutzes and flips? Boyang Jin.

And honestly -- let's really be honest now -- Hanyu's spread eagle OUT of jumps were meant to disguise wonky landings.
 

becca

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20,424
Thank you. I honestly think Hanyu was scored generously to get 4th in the free skate.

Of course, he's one of the greatest competitors ever. He's had some fantastic moments and there are exceptional qualities to his skating. I love his outflow, when he hits. But we are now into the Quad Lutz, Quad Flip era. Anyone who has ever skated knows that those jumps (even on the level of single rotations) are far harder than loop. salchow and toe loop. It's just... true. And Hanyu doesn't have them. (Okay, an occasional Lutz. And Nathan has landed more Loops in competition than Yuzu has Lutzes.)

As for the PCS... I'm sorry, but Nathan has improved consistently each year. Hanyu has not.

While I'm not a Fanyu, I do appreciate him. And winning two Olympic golds is a damn impressive accomplishment. But -- let's be honest -- 2014 was a mess, in terms of the men's event. 99% of fans had Patrick Chan pegged for Olympic gold, and for good reason. Yuzu was nowhere near Patrick's level of beautiful skating skills at that time (and frankly, still isn't). Yuzuru's SP was great, but his free skate was bad... even he knew it. He didn't expect to win. Who knew that Patrick would have an even worse meltdown? IMO, Yuzu earned the gold medal, but Denis Ten should have won the long program.

In 2018, Nathan absolutely bombed the SP. We all know it. Yuzu's SP was fabulous. But Nathan won the free skate by a huge margin. Yuzu's was mediocre (by his standards), and he did not even receive 2nd place scores from all of the judges.

Sorry. I'm on a tangent. I get a little miffed when Yuzu is considered the GOAT, based on his two Olympic wins. Is he great? Of course he is. When he can do what Nathan can do... I'll be the first to jump on his bandwagon.

In the meantime... I'm all about Nathan.

I would never count Yuzu out. He's a fighter. This is the most exciting time in men's skating we've ever seen. How lucky are we?
I think Hanyu got lucky to win his first OGM too and Denis Ten should have won the long.

But who knew Patrick would mess up the long worse? I did? Chan wasnt known for clean consistent programs.

He was never the strongest jumper and instead of going to a coach to help with that well. Part of being great is working on your weaknesses.


Sure skating skills one could give to Chan but Hanyus at the time were nothing to snuff at and he had always been a much better jumper. I mean to me the jumps aren’t close between Hanyu and Chan.

For me in singles jumps are part of the overal package and so I will take Hanyu as the more well rounded skater than Chan.

Hanyu had had some really memorable programs.

I think in general folks forget that Plushenko when he was young had incredible speed etc.

However as for 2018 Hanyu delivered an Olympic gold worthy performance.

Nathan winning free skate will who says Nathan would have skates like that if he had a chance for an Olympic medal? I mean his team and short were implosions understandable given his lack of experience.

Hanyu was the best one in 2018. He put down two good performances under immense pressure.
 
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MsZem

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And if you started out as athletic you are never allowed to improve. every time you skate people will say all he can do is jump. The decision was made 10 years ago and they will not change their mind now so there’s no need to argue with them. 😁
This is where Patrick Chan was smart. He established himself on the PCS side first, and then when he incorporated quads he was pretty much unstoppable. He didn't even have to land them!

I've come to miss Chan and his skating skills...
 
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Japanfan

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24,348
But who knew Patrick would mess up the long worse? I did? Chan wasnt known for clean consistent programs.

He was never the strongest jumper and instead of going to a coach to help with that well. Part of being great is working on your weaknesses.

I knew. It was so obvious in the Canadian media's coverage of Patrick in the lead-up to 2014. They glorified him totally, and he got really defensive. Patrick is not a pressure skater and doesn't particularly love competition IMHO - I don't think he felt pressure when he beat Buttle for the National title as he was a relative unknown at the time. His three world titles came easily.

All that said, seeing Patrick skating POTO and Four Seasons live is among my favorite memories as a FS fan. Nathan Chen doesn't have the same beauty to me, and nor does Hanyu, although Hanyu does indeed come close.
 

becca

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20,424
This is where Patrick Chan was smart. He established himself on the PCS side first, and then we he incorporated quads he was pretty much unstoppable. He didn't even have to land them!

I've come to miss Chan and his skating skills...
I disagree I think you start with good basics and that includes good jumping technique. I don’t consider Chan winning without landing quads a plus.

I still think Denis Ten should have won that worlds. Ten had beautiful skating and gold jumps

Watching someone fall on jumps isnt a plus.

I think if your going to be a balanced skater your probably not going to be the best at everything because you are working on everything. Chan needed a strong technical couch to help with those jumps and chose a ballet teacher instead.

Chan then was incredible the few times he was on. And deserved that first world title but I think there is a reason Hanyu and Nathan have more titles.
 
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MsZem

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Chan then was incredible the few times he was on. And deserved that first world title but I think there is a reason Hanyu and Nathan have more titles.
They do not.

Unless you mean something other than world titles?
 

millyskate

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14,317
Fair enough... different strokes.

I just don't think Hanyu's body carriage and positions, along with his "artistry" stands up to Nathan at this point. And check again... Hanyu's transitions weren't on point in this program. Watch carefully. Hanyu does have beautiful (and better) outflow from his jumps... when he hits them.
I thought Chen was fantastic in the LP although I agree with @tony that it started getting interesting only when he hit the step sequence.
It was good to see because I thought the SP was a bit of a presentation disaster - completely flat and empty.

I enjoyed Hanyu’s program more than most but like every program, it needs to be skated well to work and it wasn’t.
 

jlai

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12,893
It’s not just Hanyu’s 2 Olympic wins. Hanyu is the reason Nathan is doing 5 quads - because it’s the only way he can beat him. All those difficult jump entries that people are trying? Hanyu. Back counter into 3 axel? Hanyu. Spread eagle into and out of jumps? Hanyu.

And while I love Chen, the quality of Hanyu”s blade work is superior. Watch the opening of his Chopin short. He covers almost half the rink with one simple turn (can’t remember it’s a bracket or counter). We don’t see those type of sweeping sustained edges from Chen, who is more the Paul Wylie type of super fast footwork.

There’s no question that Hanyu was not his best today, but please give the man his due. Not because of his 2 Olympic championships, but for what he has done on the ice over more than a decade.
But aren't we all prone to recency bias? We are measuring the entire history of great male skaters by what Hanyu accomplished. Of course Dick Button didn't do a quad back then. Quads, and multiple quads, are a recent thing, and of course, by the way sports development, only a recently great skater could have met that greatness if that is the definition.

The way each next generation pushes the older generation's envelope, you will always have a skater in the next gen who can do more revolutions in spins, more jumps, transitions, etc then the older generation.

But if you compare Hanyu's greatness to Chen's, then yes, I agree with you. But annointing Hanyu, or anyone, as the greatest of all time, is comparing apples and oranges. That's like judging 6.0 skaters in IJS. Then of course all 6.0 skaters back then sucked under IJS defintions. If we were to judge skaters of all time by how well they do figures, then maybe we'll end up with a different goat.
 
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VGThuy

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I also believe someone like Nathan naturally wanted to challenge himself by doing the most difficult quads he could do. It’s fair to say that he and his generation benefitted from all the work the quadsters have done years past have done since nothing exists in a vacuum and every skater is a product of their time.

Basically, if we’re giving Yuzu credit for Nathan going for the harder quads then we should give other skaters credit for Yuzu doing what he’s doing too. Chan had some of the most challening programs and started getting quads and landing them some of the time. His programs were known for expanding skating skill related difficulty and transitions. So hence, Yuzu and his crazy transitions in and out of jumps.

As for the quads, I remember when Timothy Goebel was named the “quad king” for being the first person to do three quads in one program back in 2000 I believe. We had Yagudin and Plushenko winning gold with multiple quads, Chan having quads and some of the greatest skating skills of all time, Yuzuru being able to be a bit more consistent and have an even tougher quad repertoire with all his crazy entrances and exits out of jumps, and then boom! A whole generation of men doing quad lutzes and flips and whatnot. Ice Network back in 2016 named the new quad kids the biggest story of the year or whatever. People were super angry about that. In fact people faked concern over the likes of Chen and Zhou because they knew things would be harder for their fave quadless skaters to make the Olympic team.
 

BittyBug

The missing ingredient
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But aren't we all prone to recency bias?
Agree. And because of that, I think "GOAT" is an inapt title. More like GOTT - greatest of this time, or even more aptly, one of the greatest of all time (but that doesn't make a nice, neat acronym).

And yes, there is a strong case for that mantle being passed to Nathan Chen, who is absolutely phenomenal and is taking the sport to a new level. But skateboy's post struck me as dismissing Hanyu based on a poor skate here. Past experience shows it's premature to do that, and I wouldn't derive any definitive conclusions based on this year given the terrible training conditions for many skaters. Is Hanyu past his prime? It's certainly possible, but I think it's too early to tell.

On a related note, it seems like there is a backlash against Hanyu because of the Fanyus. How about just settling for the fact that they are both amazing skaters, each with different gifts, and the sport is better for their rivalry.
 

jlai

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Agree. And because of that, I think "GOAT" is an inapt title. More like GOTT - greatest of this time, or even more aptly, one of the greatest of all time (but that doesn't make a nice, neat acronym).

And yes, there is a strong case for that mantle being passed to Nathan Chen, who is absolutely phenomenal and is taking the sport to a new level. But skateboy's post struck me as dismissing Hanyu based on a poor skate here. Past experience shows it's premature to do that, and I wouldn't derive any definitive conclusions based on this year given the terrible training conditions for many skaters. Is Hanyu past his prime? It's certainly possible, but I think it's too early to tell.

On a related note, it seems like there is a backlash against Hanyu because of the Fanyus. How about just settling for the fact that they are both amazing skaters, each with different gifts, and the sport is better for their rivalry.
Agree. I think the only thing that can be compared over time is competitiveness, or number of new moves "invented" by a single skater. A more subjective one will be: which skating performance will be remembered 20 years from now (but there will be few consensus over this)
So who are the most competitive skaters of all times? Witt, for sure, and I still think Plushenko is still the most competitive skater in recent history, just by the sheer consistency and longevity, but who knows, if Hanyu or Chen is still beating fellow skaters at 31 (which Plushy did), then we should reevaluate.
 

GarrAargHrumph

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This is a long thread, so forgive me if it's been mentioned, but in an interview posted by Japanese media after Worlds, Hanyu said he had an asthma attack right after the free skate. He said he was feeling fine during the warm up. He did not say if he was feeling the effects of the asthma attack during his free skate.

Some Russian news reports are saying that Hanyu began experiencing the asthma attack before the free skate, but I can't say if that's true or not.
 

floskate

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I'm with @skateboy on this one. I saw Chen's SA and Nationals performances of thesame programme and was thoroughly underwhelmed by his interpretation of the music but yesterday was different - for me at least. The beautiful and angular stretches into and out of sections of footwork in his step sequence were just gorgeous and at one with the music. Can't say that for most step sequences these days. All these comments referring to him coming alive after the axel, well yeah but that is also what the music called for. Why would you want to see that level of energy before then when the music didn't call for that? Robin Cousins was just interviewed on BBC and said pretty much the same thing, that normally when you're doing 5 quads then something has to give and there isn't maybe the level of musicality etc. but that with Nathan's performance here that was absolutely not the case.
 

skateboy

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The beautiful and angular stretches into and out of sections of footwork in his step sequence were just gorgeous and at one with the music. Can't say that for most step sequences these days. All these comments referring to him coming alive after the axel, well yeah but that is also what the music called for. Why would you want to see that level of energy before then when the music didn't call for that?
:respec:
 

Tavi

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I have to say that for this program I think Nathan deserved every point of PCS he got. It was one of the most compelling performances of anything I’ve ever seen, made exciting by his sheer competitive grit. In fact, it reminded me in that way of Hanyu’s 2015 Semei programs at NHK and GPF. Pretty amazing. 😊
 

PRlady

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I knew. It was so obvious in the Canadian media's coverage of Patrick in the lead-up to 2014. They glorified him totally, and he got really defensive. Patrick is not a pressure skater and doesn't particularly love competition IMHO - I don't think he felt pressure when he beat Buttle for the National title as he was a relative unknown at the time. His three world titles came easily.

All that said, seeing Patrick skating POTO and Four Seasons live is among my favorite memories as a FS fan. Nathan Chen doesn't have the same beauty to me, and nor does Hanyu, although Hanyu does indeed come close.
I saw Hanyu live in Finland and will never forget it. It’s up there with being lucky enough, as a newbie fan, to see Kwan’s Lyra Angelica in Philly live. And Plushenko at 2003 Worlds. A moment when you knew you were seeing a legendary skater.
 

MacMadame

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I thought Chen was fantastic in the LP although I agree with @tony that it started getting interesting only when he hit the step sequence.
I think that depends on what interests you though. I love skaters who make me feel things. That may be feeling the music or a story but it also can be the excitement of "can they do it?" For me, every time Nathan jumped and it was well done, not eeked out, the excitement built. Could he do all the jumps in the program perfectly (kind of like a shutout in baseball)? Then, when he did, the program took on a different kind of excitement and that, combined with the skill that went before it, multiplied the excitement for me.

So, it was all interesting, just in a different way.
 

becca

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I think that depends on what interests you though. I love skaters who make me feel things. That may be feeling the music or a story but it also can be the excitement of "can they do it?" For me, every time Nathan jumped and it was well done, not eeked out, the excitement built. Could he do all the jumps in the program perfectly (kind of like a shutout in baseball)? Then, when he did, the program took on a different kind of excitement and that, combined with the skill that went before it, multiplied the excitement for me.

So, it was all interesting, just in a different way.
I think there is a level of performance that gets elevated with incredible technical performance I mean look at how estactic Nathan was toward the end. It’s why I think PCS and jumps at least in performance and execution are tied together
 

Dobre

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Nathan:swoon:.

Thank you, Jason, for destressing me enough to help me enjoy the final flight.

Whee, Keegan! Two berths for Canada. (You know, providing someone earns it, I assume. Still not 100% sure I understand the new system. But great job!)

Wow, Yuma. I thought maybe the pressure would not be impossible with Hanyu & Shoma there to earn the berths if it didn't work out. But I am impressed that not even one triple axel was popped.

Grateful for the new program Hanyu. I'll take a new program with a few flaws any day over a perfect one I've seen three years in a row.

Well done, Kolyada. It's great to see you back, and looking better than ever honestly.
 

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