2020 U.S. Presidential Election

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,125
If we’re talking about accessibility and control, we can look at religiously-tied healthcare clinics and hospitals like those Catholic ones where for many areas are the only healthcare providers and hospitals for many miles. They’ve succeeded in not providing services they find objectionable. If it’s only about scale, even if they were all broken up to independent companies in the dozens/hundreds, they could all still decide not to allow Parler due to its laxed or no moderation procedures. Nothing is forcing them to host Parler.
 

Louis

Private citizen
Messages
15,461
If it’s only about scale, even if they were all broken up to independent companies in the dozens/hundreds, they could all still decide not to allow Parler due to its laxed or no moderation procedures. Nothing is forcing them to host Parler.

If that's the case, then fine. I have confidence that a decision is reasonable if dozens or hundreds of companies come to the same conclusion. Two? Not so much.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
65,885
Trump is a billionaire. He can hire somebody to build his own platform and then say whatever he wishes. But, Trump is also cheap and prefers someone else assumes the costs. There in lies the dilemma. He's been using that as an economical threat to FoxNews for months.

And, no social media platform ever asks what ones political affiliation is therefore, they cannot kick you off because you belong to any particular political party.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
34,125
If that's the case, then fine. I have confidence that a decision is reasonable if dozens or hundreds of companies come to the same conclusion. Two? Not so much.
I really am for breaking up these companies. They're too big, and I kind of thing a lot of the personality types who are running it really start buying into their own power.

Trump is a billionaire. He can hire somebody to build his own platform and then say whatever he wishes. But, Trump is also cheap and prefers someone else assumes the costs. There in lies the dilemma. And, no social media platform ever asks what ones political affiliation is therefore, they cannot kick you off because you belong to any particular political party.

Is he a billionaire or a "billionaire"? One thing that truly saved Trump back then was that his creditors ended up determining that the Trump name was too important to lose financially, and it was his name and image that gave him the gig on The Apprentice. After this Presidency, I don't see anybody thinking his name is worth saving if it needs to be saved.
 

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
65,885
I really am for breaking up these companies. They're too big, and I kind of thing a lot of the personality types who are running it really start buying into their own power.



Is he a billionaire or a "billionaire"? One thing that truly saved Trump back then was that his creditors ended up determining that the Trump name was too important to lose financially, and it was his name and image that gave him the gig on The Apprentice. After this Presidency, I don't see anybody thinking his name is worth saving if it needs to be saved.
Based on those leaked tax documents, I'd say "billionaire" is more accurate. It's going to be interesting to see who calls those loans in now that he doesn't have direct influence via the WH to offer as collateral. His legal bills are going to get pretty big as well when NY goes after him. If GA decides to file obstruction charges, even more. And, if Rudy is disbarred in NY, his legal team is getting pretty limited, given he doesn't pay his bills.
 

Barbara Manatee

Well-Known Member
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1,534
The FSU example doesn't hold for me either. This is akin to every web hosting provider refusing to host FSU, while Golden Skate can continue.
I think it's more akin to every web provider refusing to host FSU because its forums were being used to make plans to break skaters' legs, while GS continued because its forums were being used to complain about biased judging.
 

jlai

Title-less
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12,829
If that's the case, then fine. I have confidence that a decision is reasonable if dozens or hundreds of companies come to the same conclusion. Two? Not so much.
But big companies also come under scrutiny more than the rest. Like antitrust, or a media storm if they don't do the right thing. And if they ban anyone that sparks controversy, there is quite a bit to pay, in terms of public image.

Actually small companies get away with more, in that sense.
 

jlai

Title-less
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12,829
I think it's more akin to every web provider refusing to host FSU because its forums were being used to make plans to break skaters' legs, while GS continued because its forums were being used to complain about biased judging.
And the fsu part is closer to twitter deleting a user account
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
39,413
If that's the case, then fine. I have confidence that a decision is reasonable if dozens or hundreds of companies come to the same conclusion. Two? Not so much.
It's way more than two companies.

The issue is that these companies have Terms of Service and can boot you off if you violate them. If you think they shouldn't have booted off Trump, there could be several reasons.

(1) you don't think he really violated the TOS. Having watched his video where he says "this is just the beginning", I would say he absolutely did violate their TOS.
(2) you don't believe companies should be able to have a TOS and to boot people off if they violate it. To which I say, good luck with that especially when you don't want to give services to someone due to their behavior and the law says you have to. i.e., someone trashes your place every time they come into it for coffee so you don't want to serve them coffee any more.
(3) you think that as long as they don't boot off other people who you think are as bad as Trump or worse, they shouldn't boot off Trump. i.e., uneven moderation. I think of this argument as trying to argue that because not everyone who speeds gets a ticket, you shouldn't either.
 

jlai

Title-less
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12,829
I don't think enforcing TOS should have anything to do with company size. If you think a company is too big, that's an antitrust issue and there are attempts on lawsuits on that end already
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
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16,091
The bakery example doesn't hold for me. There are thousands of bakeries.
There are thousands of bakeries in the US but not in the area one lives at and even fewer who make wedding cakes. While it's probably possible, it's very expensive and inconvenient to transport a wedding cake all across the country and cake testing a cake in NYC when you live in Colorado is a little difficult.

Is he a billionaire or a "billionaire"?
I was going to ask the same question.

I'm really enjoying the #noflylist on Twitter. People just don't feel sorry for the MAGA-heads. They are arrogant asses who thinks the law doesn't apply to them.
Speaking of the No Fly List. Airlines are private companies, too. They ban people who they consider a security risk to the other passengers. How did Twitter and FB do anything different than ban whose words they consider a security risk to others?
 

Louis

Private citizen
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15,461
@MacMadame, I'm talking about Google and Apple - not Facebook and Twitter. Facebook and Twitter should be able to set their own rules and moderate as they see fit. Parler or any other platform should be able to set up competition and moderate in a different way, as they see fit. Except they can't because they've been banned from the two distribution platforms and the three major cloud providers.

I have never used Parler, but based on the home page, there is (was?) a clear community-based moderation commitment, and requiring ID was an attempt to keep out the trolls. It's not like this was a complete free for all - at least it wasn't advertised as such. On the surface, Parler went beyond Twitter and other bot-laden platforms.

In practice, I don't know how it worked, and no one can tell me. I'd like the supporting facts - what % of Parler's 10 million users and what % of posts were objectionable? Quantitative metric by quantitative metric, where did Parler fail where Twitter, Facebook, etc. succeed? Yes, there was a very big problem with this platform - but we've had live-streamed suicides, child molestation, and other terrible offenses from Facebook. Was there no workable mediation; no alternative to banning Parler? Maybe there wasn't. I'd like to see the facts. I'd also like the tech companies to guarantee that there will free and fair competition to Twitter and Facebook, under the same standards.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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24,383
@MacMadame, I'm talking about Google and Apple - not Facebook and Twitter. Facebook and Twitter should be able to set their own rules and moderate as they see fit. Parler or any other platform should be able to set up competition and moderate in a different way, as they see fit. Except they can't because they've been banned from the two distribution platforms and the three major cloud providers.

I have never used Parler, but based on the home page, there is (was?) a clear community-based moderation commitment, and requiring ID was an attempt to keep out the trolls. It's not like this was a complete free for all - at least it wasn't advertised as such. On the surface, Parler went beyond Twitter and other bot-laden platforms.

In practice, I don't know how it worked, and no one can tell me. I'd like the supporting facts - what % of Parler's 10 million users and what % of posts were objectionable? Quantitative metric by quantitative metric, where did Parler fail where Twitter, Facebook, etc. succeed? Yes, there was a very big problem with this platform - but we've had live-streamed suicides, child molestation, and other terrible offenses from Facebook. Was there no workable mediation; no alternative to banning Parler? Maybe there wasn't. I'd like to see the facts. I'd also like the tech companies to guarantee that there will free and fair competition to Twitter and Facebook, under the same standards.
Oh please. They can go and set up their own platforms and server. They just cannot use the major players in the market to facilitate people having access to what they offering. It is just going to make it harder for those of a like mind to find these services. But they are not being censored to stop from offering the service.

As a person who is currently setting up an app at the moment and using Apple and Google to host our app, then I understand how it works. But if we really wanted to we could do it ourselves. It would just cost a fortune to do it, let alone just having the basic knowledge to do it.

The people whining the most about this stuff are multi-millionaires who still are on the air and are still saying what they bloody well like.
 
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MacMadame

Staying at home
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39,413
Speaking of the No Fly List. Airlines are private companies, too. They ban people who they consider a security risk to the other passengers. How did Twitter and FB do anything different than ban whose words they consider a security risk to others?
But the No Fly List is a government thing. Airlines agree to honor it but the FAA creates it.

@MacMadame, I'm talking about Google and Apple - not Facebook and Twitter. Facebook and Twitter should be able to set their own rules and moderate as they see fit. Parler or any other platform should be able to set up competition and moderate in a different way, as they see fit. Except they can't because they've been banned from the two distribution platforms and the three major cloud providers.
Google and Apple threw the Parler app out of their app stores. That is not the only way to get an app on your phone though it certainly is the easiest and safest. But it's safest because these companies have a list of qualifications you have to meet to be included. Which means they are like Facebook and Twitter in that they have a TOS and can boot an app if it does not meet it.

Parler has only been thrown off one cloud provider AFAIK, AWS (Amazon). The next biggest is Azure (Microsoft) followed by Google Cloud. I know Google threw them out of the App store but that doesn't mean Google Cloud, which is a different subsidiary, won't host them. They also have IBM Cloud Services and then a host of smaller companies. So they have choices and have announced they found a new host.
 

overedge

G.O.A.T.
Messages
29,538
So yesterday the New York Times ran this story:

I am of two minds about this sort of coverage, which the Times has been doing for the past couple of years. On one hand I agree that it's important to understand why Trump supporters are disengaged and angry. OTOH I'm starting to feel that if someone consciously chooses to get their news only from OANN and QAnon sites, and goes on about the election being stolen without being able to point to any proof of it, they don't deserve the Times' attention - especially if they don't have a coherent response to the facts about the situation. What next, interviews with David Icke about how the UK Royal Family are all lizards in disguise and in cahoots with the Rothschilds to control the world banking system?
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,091
But the No Fly List is a government thing. Airlines agree to honor it but the FAA creates it.
I did not know that. That said, my arguement remains largely the same: while the FAA is federal, they still put them there for security reasons. Why should the government have the right and not private companies?
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,383
Now Hal is showing Ben Shapiro complaining about how the left is shutting down the right by not allowing them platforms to spread their hate and lies. And now he is worried about his own podcast. Although it really is ironic that those that spread the most hate and lies complains about the left's hate and lies.

BTW - Ben Shapiro sounds like a chipmunk on speed.
 

Susan1

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9,732

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
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7,761
They are becoming radicalized extremists in their 60s. I have no idea what to do. My husband doesn't like the political talk but won't cut off ties to his parents. He will literally leave the room for a few minutes when they start ranting, but won't tell them to stop. He just waits and tries to change the subject instead. I find it very upsetting and don't want to invite them over anymore, but then I get accused of being "mean" to his parents. They haven't been here since New Years so I haven't heard their hot takes on the coup, but I'm really afraid of the crazy stuff they're going to rant about the next time I see them.
You're not alone trying to figure out the radicalization of the senior MAGAs, according AP:
Records show fervent Trump fans fueled US Capitol takeover (apnews.com)
Among them was Lonnie Leroy Coffman, 70, an Alabama grandfather who drove to Washington to attend Trump’s “Save America Rally” in a red GMC Sierra pickup packed with an M4 assault rifle, multiple loaded magazines, three handguns and 11 Mason jars filled with homemade napalm, according to court filings.

The truck was found during a security sweep involving explosives-sniffing dogs after two pipe bombs were found and disarmed Wednesday near the national headquarters of the Republican and Democratic parties. Coffman was arrested that evening when he returned to the truck carrying a 9mm Smith & Wesson handgun and a .22-caliber derringer pistol in his pockets. Federal officials said Coffman is not suspected of planting the pipe bombs, though he was charged with having Molotov cocktails in the bed of his truck.

His grandson, Brandon Coffman, told the AP on Friday his grandfather was a Republican who had expressed admiration for Trump at holiday gatherings. He said he had no idea why Coffman would show up in the nation’s capital armed for civil war.
 

becca

Well-Known Member
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20,048
There's nothing to stop anyone from going retro and hosting their own content on their own servers. The cloud isn't the only way to compute, and many companies are not on the cloud at all.
But this may radicalize folks further
 

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