2020 U.S. Presidential Election

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,303
You know what's funny about this exact phrasing? You know how many people living in Miami will tell you 'I came from a socialist/communist country, I know the signs. Don't tell me what is and isn't socialism, I escaped it!', etc when talking about why they weren't vote for Biden? I'm sure @olympic can back me up on this, because that's all I heard from quite a few people for a few months leading up to the election. I don't get why your experience trumps (not punning) what other people are expecting to happen. Because the people you choose to follow are better educated? Your/their opinion matters more? You spend more time analyzing every move Trump makes while many people find the key issues, vote for what suits them best, and they move on so therefore your ideas hold more weight?


So you're saying people that feel very strongly about one issue and one issue only are wrong in that taking precedence over everything else? So these so-called clear threats of authoritarianism that you think only the super educated can see (or honestly I don't even know what you're going for at this point) should be the number one issue for EVERYONE?

I'd think that the thought of taking away any kind of gay/trans rights, if it came from a Democrat at some point, would be more than enough for people within the community to flock to the Republican candidate, no questions asked. If a Democratic candidate wanted to segregate schools/neighborhoods or something super extreme, you don't think that most people, including the majority of minorities, would flock to the Republican candidate? I said in a PM to someone that being in an ethics course this previous semester, I met a lot of younger Latina ladies in Miami and when we got to abortion, they were all very clear that this is a huge issue for them and they weren't going to vote any other way, as the election had been approaching at that point. Are they wrong for seeing that as an actual occurring problem but 'ignoring' the so-called signs of authoritarianism?

Your number one issue that has made you hellbent on this forum for how many months/years seems to be how you've lived through authoritarianism and you don't want signs of it to pop up. That's fine. I can't tell you how to feel. But why are you suggesting that people who have their own precedence of issues suddenly 'don't believe' something can happen that you personally see?

Because several of you attempted to take me to task for getting the information straight from the source, and then you constantly come here talking about everything Trump does. I wanted to immediately know what he said, but it was the end of the world (literally, read the stressed out posts) for some that I had done that.

You chose to directly engage with me when I said it was ridiculous to assume that 74 million people were hardcore MAGA and ready to fight into a civil war. I think anyone who says that out loud is damn foolish. Now you're throwing this slant, without directly saying so, that you put more effort in than others, especially all of those terrible Republicans, and anyone who doesn't put in such effort clearly isn't considering YOUR number one issue.

I remember a speech from a Cuban immigrant at the republican convention. He was talking about how castro didn’t campaign on being a dictator! Lol. Maybe campaign is the wrong word but his platform or whatever was free education for all and then free this and free that! And maybe he delivered all that “free” stuff but then he started to kill or jail everyone who opposed him giving the “free” stuff. So maybe lots of people think socialism just meant western European socialism but there is all the other examples of Authoritarian socialism!!

There is a larger issue in that I believe people can vote however they want on whatever issues they want!!

In the bush era liberals loved “what’s the matter with kansas” because all the blue collar democrats started to vote for pro life republicans rather than union backed pro choice democrats. And they believed was wrong! It was wrong to vote for social issues over economic issues. But then I read the book and then I was like “I don’t vote on economic issues but social issues! So why is right for me but not for them?” But anyway people have the right to think and vote whatever and however they like and have an ideology of whatever!
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,521
Holy sh*t I just choked on my own spit when Trump said that if the Dems win the senate that the damage to the US will be permanent and irreversible. And my work colleagues were asking me if I am okay.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,918
Incidentally there is so much talk about the Dems failing to win the Latino vote you'd think that they had lost it. But they won it by a large margin.
This drives me nuts. It is like false advertising for the Republican Party and unfair to Latino voters.

It is the white vote that went for Trump. (The rural vote, the uneducated vote, etc).

These groups also shifted the most percentage-wise toward Biden this time. Well, OK. I'm good with that. They had the furthest to come.

It is the groups that went the most strongly for Clinton that shifted the most percentage-wise toward Trump this time. (Black male voters, Latino voters, there is a sizable list, urban? I saw a graphic on this yesterday but I don't remember everything on it).


Regardless, here is the metaphor that went off immediately in my head when I saw that graphic:

Every year when I taught school, my students would fall into 2 groups when it came to their standardized test scores.

1 group were the top-scoring students. These students passed the test with the highest numbers. These students also very often grew less than their peers.

1 group grew the most. These students were often the students with the lowest scores from the year before. Some of these students passed the test. Some didn't.

Why? Some of it is just statistical. Some of it may be that the students who did poorly the year before underscored relative to their potential. Some of it--quite a bit, I would guess--is that the lower scoring students from the year before gained some natural developmental growth. (Their brains matured). This may have happened for their peers earlier. And a lot of it may be that the teachers & the school as a whole directed a whole LOT of time and attention on those kids who were the furthest behind.

Just as the Republican Party and Democratic Party directed a whole LOT of time and attention toward specific groups & specific regions where they thought their candidates could make up ground.


Note: I've read that, with regard to the Republican Party & Latino voters this came in the form of massive negative disinformation campaigns. (Not surprising as that was pretty much true for the Republican strategy during this election in general).

Note 2: I believed in celebrating both groups of my students. It didn't matter to me that the state only cared if blank percent of my students passed the test or if the class as a whole grew blank percent. It was easy to not "meet standard" and still have all the kids in the class either a. pass the test or b. grow as much as the state wanted them to grow. If that wasn't enough to make the state happy, too bad. (They kept raising the scores my kids were required to meet or changing the test anyway). My kids grew and my kids succeeded. Resources--mostly time--were not limitless; but everyone experienced some form of success.
 
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Lemonade20

Former Kurtholic
Messages
1,355
I love the ignore feature we have here at FSU; off you go. We have serious issues here in the US and they were not created for your personal amusement.

I lost sympathy for the US when they voted Trump into office. He’s still your president till January 20th and still your problem. It’s not for our “personal amusement”. My thoughts are with those who have suffered and passed away under his presidency from YKW. I’ve never seen a more incompetent president.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,521
I lost sympathy for the US when they voted Trump into office. He’s still your president till January 20th and still your problem. It’s not for our “personal amusement”. My thoughts are with those who have suffered and passed away under his presidency from YKW. I’ve never seen a more incompetent president.
It is never about personal amusement. What happens in the US impacts the rest of the world. Personally I cannot believe that people voted for such a dangerously incompetent deranged madmen. And when over 350K people have died that is serious sh*t. But to listen to this person blame everyone else and keep banging on about an election that he clearly lost but cannot accept it, it makes my blood boil. Then the only way to deal with it is to laugh because it is so ridiculous.
 

Lemonade20

Former Kurtholic
Messages
1,355
It is never about personal amusement. What happens in the US impacts the rest of the world. Personally I cannot believe that people voted for such a dangerously incompetent deranged madmen. And when over 350K people have died that is serious sh*t. But to listen to this person blame everyone else and keep banging on about an election that he clearly lost but cannot accept it, it makes my blood boil. Then the only way to deal with it is to laugh because it is so ridiculous.
It’s incredibly crazy isn’t it?
 

caseyedwards

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,303
It is never about personal amusement. What happens in the US impacts the rest of the world. Personally I cannot believe that people voted for such a dangerously incompetent deranged madmen. And when over 350K people have died that is serious sh*t. But to listen to this person blame everyone else and keep banging on about an election that he clearly lost but cannot accept it, it makes my blood boil. Then the only way to deal with it is to laugh because it is so ridiculous.
Very simple- Cuomo is one of the governors who put ********* patients into nursing homes. You say Trump had the power to prevent that? Or to prevent ******** from ever entering America? And if so how? And how exactly in a totally decentralized country can any system have been put In place from the top down in a short time? US is not South Korea. So this is why it was so easy for people to vote for Trump and why he almost won. US is 50 states with 50 governments not some kind of centralized system. He didn’t have the power to ban Cuomo from putting ********* patients in nursing homes. And he didn’t have the power to do mask mandates!
 

skateboy

Well-Known Member
Messages
7,323
Very simple- Cuomo is one of the governors who put ********* patients into nursing homes. You say Trump had the power to prevent that? Or to prevent ******** from ever entering America? And if so how? And how exactly in a totally decentralized country can any system have been put In place from the top down in a short time? US is not South Korea. So this is why it was so easy for people to vote for Trump and why he almost won. US is 50 states with 50 governments not some kind of centralized system. He didn’t have the power to ban Cuomo from putting ********* patients in nursing homes. And he didn’t have the power to do mask mandates!
Trump has unbelievable power over the ones who love him. If, back in February or March, Trump had leveled with the American public about the deadliness of YKW, and encouraged everyone to wear masks/social distance, ALL of his followers would have jumped to do so.

As a result, we would have had a president who lead by example, we would have far fewer YKW cases and deaths and -- ironically -- Trump would have won a second term.
 

acraven

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,295
That is true. And it was obvious back in March (perhaps earlier, base on the info available to him). What flaw caused him not to see it?
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
Messages
50,775
It is never about personal amusement. What happens in the US impacts the rest of the world. Personally I cannot believe that people voted for such a dangerously incompetent deranged madmen. And when over 350K people have died that is serious sh*t. But to listen to this person blame everyone else and keep banging on about an election that he clearly lost but cannot accept it, it makes my blood boil. Then the only way to deal with it is to laugh because it is so ridiculous.
Trump is a stain on the US. I cannot believe that a conman, racist, with zero compassion, p*grabber got elected in 2016 over a highly qualified woman. When someone says he voted for Trump be ause the alternative was worse, I say What???

Trump enablers are even worse. Without their support he would have been removed from the office. After he lost the election in a landslide they are fighting to support his lies. It is a shame and a disgrace. After 350,000 Americans died due to his incompetenc, there were still 74 million who voted for him. Fortunately for us 81 million voted for Biden. I will not relax until Biden gets sworn in on January 20.

There is too much craziness and possibly violence coming up. It worries me but we do have some jokes about Trump. The Borowitz report in particular is very entertaining. It helps to laugh sometimes. so I understand what you mean.
 

MsZem

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,564
I love the ignore feature we have here at FSU; off you go. We have serious issues here in the US and they were not created for your personal amusement.
Because no American has expressed any similar sentiment :rolleyes: loads of people online have also mentioned looking forward to Trump being dragged out of the White House. Sometimes people deal with serious issues with humor and hyperbole. And as @Aussie Willy noted, Trump's actions affect people outside the US, too. So of course it's of interest to many.
 

MacMadame

Staying at home
Messages
40,907
I love the ignore feature we have here at FSU; off you go. We have serious issues here in the US and they were not created for your personal amusement.
Oh, put me on ignore too! Because when Pence ratifies/announces/whatever it's called the EC votes and Trump goes off on him, I will laugh and laugh and laugh. Because Pence deserves it for being an enabler and because no matter how much Trump rants, on Jan 20th at noon, he will NO LONGER BE PRESIDENT!

This drives me nuts. It is like false advertising for the Republican Party and unfair to Latino voters.
It's like when people write analysis pieces about how "white women put Trump in office" when more white men voted for Trump than any other demographic.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
Messages
24,521
Very simple- Cuomo is one of the governors who put ********* patients into nursing homes. You say Trump had the power to prevent that? Or to prevent ******** from ever entering America? And if so how? And how exactly in a totally decentralized country can any system have been put In place from the top down in a short time? US is not South Korea. So this is why it was so easy for people to vote for Trump and why he almost won. US is 50 states with 50 governments not some kind of centralized system. He didn’t have the power to ban Cuomo from putting ********* patients in nursing homes. And he didn’t have the power to do mask mandates!
I am not sure what Cuomo has anything to do with Trump lying about the seriousness of the ***** from day one. Or didn't you listen to the Bob Woodward tapes? Which then his fan base listen to what he says.

And maybe I can speak from experience living in a country (and state - Tasmania) that has taken it seriously. Where I am we are not in lockdown. We are encouraged to social distance, use hand sanitiser (it is at the entrance of every store) and every restaurant has a QR code where you register when you eat in. But we are pretty much free to go about our daily lives without restriction.
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,918
It's like when people write analysis pieces about how "white women put Trump in office" when more white men voted for Trump than any other demographic.
Ah, yes. And how "the problem" in 2016 was that Hillary was the wrong candidate. Too "polarizing."

The problem couldn't possibly have been that millions of American citizens chose to listen to a completely polarizing & unqualified man full of B.S. rather than an inclusive message from a strong, intelligent woman:p.
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,233
Not sure where to put this but it seems that McConnell is having trouble keeping GOP senators in line. He needs to take lessons from Nancy Pelosi:

But... but... but... Democrats are always the ones in disarray. Just ask the MSM. (Which reminds me: I might have missed them because the weeks before Christmas were crazy but were there articles discussing the GOP in disarray to death?)
 

ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
16,233
You know what's funny about this exact phrasing? You know how many people living in Miami will tell you 'I came from a socialist/communist country, I know the signs. Don't tell me what is and isn't socialism, I escaped it!', etc when talking about why they weren't vote for Biden?
Of course, Biden supports socialist programs/elements of socialism. That's no secret. But so does every single Republican who supports bailouts for farmers and loans for businesses. And so does every welfare state or social democracy in Europe.

I don't doubt that Biden said things that the people you're referring to recognized and I don't doubt that they recognized it as socialism or socialist elements. And I'm pretty sure they're right about that.
I do doubt that they fled socialism though. Rather, I would wager that they fled oppression, violence and poverty and that is not a result of socialism but the authoritarianism that came with it in their respective countries (and that usually comes with extremist forms of government, whether it's on the left or right).


Because the people you choose to follow are better educated? Your/their opinion matters more? You spend more time analyzing every move Trump makes while many people find the key issues, vote for what suits them best, and they move on so therefore your ideas hold more weight?
Authoritarians have certain characteristics and behavioral patterns and Trump displays them. Biden does not.


So you're saying people that feel very strongly about one issue and one issue only are wrong in that taking precedence over everything else?
That depends. Are we talking single issue voter or priority? Priority, I don't have an issue with. Single issue, on the other hand... If your single issue is abortion rights and you ignore things like welfare, healthcare, education and climate change simply because you want to get what you want on abortion and then climate change causes you to lose your job and consequently, healthcare and you don't have any welfare (e.g. social security, food stamps) and your children end up without a diploma or no college degree and therefore, get a low-paying job and likewise don't have welfare, how much have you gained from getting what you want on abortion?

I believe the same can be said about any issue.

My only exception is when the single issue is preserving democracy (although, while it is a single issue, it also is not because it usually affects a number of other issues). But I don't believe that there is anything more important than democracy because democracy is the foundation for the rights and freedoms we have; democracy gives us those rights and freedoms and protects them and I think that any single right that we might gain through a single issue vote, will sooner or later be worthless if we lose democracy and all the other rights guaranteed by the Constitution (but particularly the rights guaranteed by the 1st, 4th, 5th, 6th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 19th and 24th amendments).

So these so-called clear threats of authoritarianism that you think only the super educated can see (or honestly I don't even know what you're going for at this point) should be the number one issue for EVERYONE?
I'm no really sure where your perception of super educated comes from. My only guess is that it comes from my reference to scholars and I referred to them simply because they're experts in the field of authoritarianism (and to point out that Trump's authoritarian traits aren't merely my opinion but backed up by those who studied the subject, kind of like when we make a statement and provide a link to back it up).

It may be the wrong term but not all of them are historians and I have no idea what else to call them.

I'd think that the thought of taking away any kind of gay/trans rights, if it came from a Democrat at some point, would be more than enough for people within the community to flock to the Republican candidate, no questions asked. If a Democratic candidate wanted to segregate schools/neighborhoods or something super extreme, you don't think that most people, including the majority of minorities, would flock to the Republican candidate?
Depends entirely on who the Republican candidate would be and what kind of an alternative they would present. If they're a reasonable alternative, then sure and I wouldn't have a problem with it. As a matter-of-fact, I'd vote for that Republican myself in that case.

If they're not a reasonable alternative then, based on what we've seen in 2016, I would assume the majority of voters would stay home.


I said in a PM to someone that being in an ethics course this previous semester, I met a lot of younger Latina ladies in Miami and when we got to abortion, they were all very clear that this is a huge issue for them and they weren't going to vote any other way, as the election had been approaching at that point. Are they wrong for seeing that as an actual occurring problem but 'ignoring' the so-called signs of authroitarianism?
Did "seeing it as an occuring problem" mean that they voted one way for that single reason? Then I believe I answered that question above.


and you don't want signs of it to pop up. That's fine. I can't tell you how to feel. But why are you suggesting that people who have their own precedence of issues suddenly 'don't believe' something can happen that you personally see?
I'm not aware of an authoritarian state (left or right) where there isn't oppression, people have not been stripped of certain rights and there isn't a split society with a small minority of an upper class, basically no middle class and a large majority in the lower class without a way out.
Based on that, it's difficult for me to believe that anyone who believes that authoritarianism can happen and is fully aware of what that would entail (in the medium and longterm), would trade all their freedoms and rights to gain something on a single issue. (That doesn't mean that those people don't exist, it's just really difficult for me to believe because see my immediate answer before this one).

That doesn't mean that I don't think that there aren't those who would mind living under an authoritarian regime. But I don't necessarily think that they're the single issue voters but rather those voters who agree with the authoritarian's philosophy.

Because several of you attempted to take me to task for getting the information straight from the source, and then you constantly come here talking about everything Trump does.
And you think we talk about what Trump does simply because we read a single article?

You chose to directly engage with me when I said it was ridiculous to assume that 74 million people were hardcore MAGA and ready to fight into a civil war.
You mentioned Republicans who would vote for a Republican no matter what and I simply stated that I considered those voters the real problem.
So, basically, I was agreeing with you with regards to the MAGA folks.

I think anyone who says that out loud is damn foolish. Now you're throwing this slant, without directly saying so, that you put more effort in than others,
Yeah well, if I hadn't put in an effort on the subject, I would have gotten bad grades.
In all seriousness, I grew up with information on authoritarianism as it was a subject matter of history classes, political science classes (once in elementary school (grade 5 or 6) and at least three times in high school (grade 7, 11 and 13) and for high school, that meant that it was the subject for a quarter semester) and field trips to museums and memorials. Additionally, you can catch a documentary on something Hitler and/or authoritarian year-round on TV in Germany (and since it's something that I'm interested in, if I came across it, I usually watched it) and every year on every WWII anniversary, there are newspaper articles, radio reports and specific broadcasts and mentionings in news reports on TV, many including accounts of eye witnesses or relatives of eye witnesses and scholars of the Holocaust and authoritarianism.

That said, I am guilty of presuming that (the majority of) people don't want to live in an authoritarian state and, I guess, I posted on a "see something, say something" concept. (I also spent a lot of time during the Trump administration in Germany as I was waiting for my immigrant visa and aside from a phone call with my parents, FSU was the only place where I knew there were people as invested in US politics as I during the time).
 

Susan1

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,959
If Trump does indeed go to Scotland he'll have to leave eventually regardless of lawsuits/extradition. Americans can't just move to/set up residence in the UK just because they want to. You get 6 months and then you have to (try to) immigrate or leave. So he wanders over to France. Oh oops France is a Schengen country he gets 3 months there. And so it goes. Eventually he will have to find a government willing to let him stay long term. Perhaps Putin will welcome him :lol:
What about his wife and minor child? Will they be going with him? And the rest of the losers? A compound somewhere, like the Kennedys, only creepy?
 

BlueRidge

AYS's snark-sponge
Messages
58,341
And if they don't win the Senate all their best intentions are likely to come to a screeching halt with Mitch McConnell.

I agree that people like stories but there also needs to be vision.

We will bend the arc of history a little more toward justice. :blah:

Speaking just for myself, the only vision I want to see right now is a vision of, followed by competent execution of, implementing the vaccination campaign that reaches the level needed to end the *********.

Personally I'm sick of politics. I want effective government. But maybe that's just me.
 

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