2020 U.S. Presidential Election

BlueRidge

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Yes, facts are facts and the fact is that the lawsuit in GA was dismissed.

But not in anyone's lifetime. Unless there are people alive over 160 years ago who are still alive today.

Our system of government settled down a lot since the late 1800. It would be a major big deal for the GOP to split and a new party to form.
ITA.

But this is the kind of time that something like that happens. But it has to be a genuine split, with a significant number of leaders from the current party departing to a new party for it to succeed. A few people starting a new party will fail.

I think the Republican Party will go through tumult but I think it likely will come out the other side as still the Republican Party. I think eventually it will expel the crazies; the reality is they are the radicals so they are more likely to do something explosive like dump the party. The Romney types--not moderates, conservatives--need to hold tight to the party IMO, that's the best chance to get this thing past us.
 

tony

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No, I'm saying they're voting Republican regardless of whether it's an authoritarian. Some because they follow said authoritarian like a cult leader, some because they've always voted Republican, some because they're putting issues like abortion or gun rights above all else, some probably for other reasons, like seeing only what they want to see because they agree with the candidate on a handful of other issues and some because they simply agree with the candidate entirely.
So, because you see him as an authoritarian and because some people see Biden as either socialist or communist, someone from the other side can come and complain that even though we agree with most issues that Biden is going for, at the end of the day, we are still supporting a communist. Do I have your logic correct yet? Or is it different because you're not a conservative?

I don't know what kind of social circles you surround yourself in, but the majority of people don't sit on a message board complaining about a President all day long. There are so many people here that endlessly talk about how they are giving away all of their stimulus money because they don't need it, there are also many people who know deep down that it doesn't matter which candidate becomes President- it won't change their lives much, if at all. Should they not vote at all? Should they not vote for the side they align with more? Should they not vote based on the one issue that matters most to them?

I can tell you that the younger LGBTQ generation is very, very active on social media. We are a typically stingy group. If for some wild reason a Republican would come in and push for LGBTQ rights while the Democrat didn't say anything or wanted to reverse some things, you better believe a lot of the community would vote for that Republican because LGBTQ rights IS the number one thing for them. Are you going to try to tell them that this isn't their number one issue?
No, that was not the reason but I don't think there's any use in rehashing that point.
The first reason was attempted to be that I gave him ratings, which I repeatedly had to shut down by showing that it made no difference what I watched. Then it became 'why would I even watch him anyways', after that finally was understood. I remember it well. And like I said, the same people would rather come here and continuously analyze everything Trump does to death via reading or watching summaries of what he said or did.
 

overedge

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canbelto

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Kelly Loeffler has added her name to the Jan 6 protests, although she might be unemployed by then.
 

Meoima

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Ehm... if Trump fleed to Scotland on 19th January, then he would escape all the lawsuits against him then, he can just stay away from America and never come back...
 

tony

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I don't know. Really. My uncle lives in Chicago and he voted for Trump and the GOP. He is one of the nicest people I know in the family.
I do believe there are many people who voted for Trump simply because they lacked information or it simply means they just voted for the GOP due to their political and religious beliefs.
There are many GOP voters who know Trump is horrible but they still hope that GOP's policies would be better for the country in general.

In my humble opinion, it kind of like Alien vs The Predators. I am sure there are many people in my country would rather "prefer" if China wins the US in the long term when it comes to the economy. And not because they "like" CCP or so, the truth is dislike CCP and their policies a lot but they dislike the US even more.
My guess is that many GOP voters dislike Trump but would rather see their party win, they just do not feel safe with DNC's policies (if they were informed enough though). Also, the lack of trust in the mainstream media plays a huge part as well. In general, it seems more like voting for the party than voting for the person.
I didn't mean to skip over your post. Thank you for sharing. I think you are accurate in what you said, and it's what I am trying to get at. Trump did a lot of solid things that often go overlooked by everyone because there were so many things that were just terrible. But it doesn't mean that people who really weren't affected by any of this should just suddenly jump ship and want someone/a party with issues that don't work out as well for them- whether social, political, whatever. If they lived a solid life for the last four year or have some platform that is #1 for them, then that's how it goes. I don't think your Uncle was voting for an authoritarian or even trying to enable one- I think he saw the two choices and figured Trump's side was better for whatever he personally wants.. ie, he's a reasonable person.

I think the reality is that Biden will probably enjoy approval ratings in the low 60's to start, and I have no doubt that it's possible to gain into the 70's. How is he going to do that? I'll tell you it's NOT by this supposed 74 million people that will ALL just never ever learn to side with who is in power.

Trump will have his loud fans and conspiracy theorists will continue to exist. It doesn't mean much. There are some ridiculous Liberals, too.
 

skatingfan5

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I think the Republican Party will go through tumult
Kelly Loeffler has added her name to the Jan 6 protests, although she might be unemployed by then.
Since her term ended yesterday and it's possible the run-off vote count will not be completed by Wednesday, it is possible that GA will not have any senator that day.

ETA: I did not mean to include that bit from BR's post, but trying to edit out has proved to be impossible. Sorry.
 
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overedge

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Ehm... if Trump fleed to Scotland on 19th January, then he would escape all the lawsuits against him then, he can just stay away from America and never come back...

If he gets charged with federal crimes, he could be extradited.
 

Japanfan

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So, because you see him as an authoritarian and because some people see Biden as either socialist or communist, someone from the other side can come and complain that even though we agree with most issues that Biden is going for, at the end of the day, we are still supporting a communist. Do I have your logic correct yet? Or is it different because you're not a conservative?
Funny thing is I don't see any evidence that Biden is a socialist - course that depends on how one views socialism. OTOH, IMO Trump has definitely shown respect for authoritarian regimes, and disdain for democracy.
 
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Meoima

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If he gets charged with federal crimes, he could be extradited.
So if it's state crimes, he would just not come back? The thing with federal crimes is that he has thrown out pardons for a zillion of his underlings, family and maybe even himself. I don't know how things work.
 

overedge

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So if it's state crimes, he would just not come back? The thing with federal crimes is that he has thrown out pardons for a zillion of his underlings, family and maybe even himself. I don't know how things work.
I'm not totally familiar with it either, but I believe that extradition only works for federal crimes, and that the President can only pardon convictions under federal law. That's why some of the lawsuits against Trump are civil lawsuits, because the President can be sued in civil court just like anyone else, and convictions in civil court can't be pardoned.

Lawyers in the house, feel free to correct me if I'm not getting this right.
 

canbelto

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I'm still confused about the voting machine "scandal." What parts were supposed to have been moved out by Antifa, or whoever?
 

overedge

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I'm still confused about the voting machine "scandal." What parts were supposed to have been moved out by Antifa, or whoever?

I'm getting confused too, but I thought it was the software that runs the machines that was hacked. Not the physical machines themselves.
 

Aussie Willy

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So, because you see him as an authoritarian and because some people see Biden as either socialist or communist, someone from the other side can come and complain that even though we agree with most issues that Biden is going for, at the end of the day, we are still supporting a communist. Do I have your logic correct yet? Or is it different because you're not a conservative?
I think you have to look at behaviour to justify calling someone authoritarian or socialist.

We have seen many things Trump has done that constitutes authoritarian behaviour.

Definition of authoritarian 1 : of, relating to, or favoring blind submission to authority had authoritarian parents 2 : of, relating to, or favoring a concentration of power in a leader or an elite not constitutionally responsible to the people an authoritarian regime

He demonstrates exactly the behaviour as above. He is a bully, narcissist, dictator, hates being contradicted even when proven wrong, expects everyone to bow down to him, attacks people who say things he doesn't like and is basically shown with his latest phone call that he is behaving like a mafia boss and wants people to do what he says without question.

I am not sure what Biden has done that proves he is socialist and justifies him being called one. Here is the definition.

Definition of socialism - a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

I would be interested if anyone can find something that Biden does that even makes him a socialist. A universal healthcare system?
 

canbelto

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Trump talks about the "inner parts of machines." I'm still confused as to what he might be referring to.

Trump: “Do you think it’s possible that they shredded ballots in Fulton County? Because that’s what the rumor is. And also that Dominion took out machines. That Dominion is really moving fast to get rid of their, uh, machinery. Do you know anything about that? Because that’s illegal, right?”
Germany responded: “No, Dominion has not moved any machinery out of Fulton County.”
Trump: “But have they moved the inner parts of the machines and replaced them with other parts?”
Germany: “No.”
Trump: “Are you sure, Ryan?”
Germany: “I’m sure. I’m sure, Mr. President.”
 

BlueRidge

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I would be interested if anyone can find something that Biden does that even makes him a socialist. A universal healthcare system?

No he doesn't support Medicare for All which would nationalize the health care industry.

People don't really seem to put much of any limit on what socialism means though. If someone advocates government programs they call that socialist. I don't think it is, and I think if you follow what those who call themselves democratic socialists in the US advocate they have a very different policy agenda from Biden. But if you just count advocating for government programs as socialist then you've snared pretty much all Democrats. Then the term is meaningless.

I think the people who are afraid of socialism believe that the socialists on the edge of the Democratic Party are going to take over momentarily and institute huge government intervention in the economy. Th socialists would like to in fact. But I don't think its going to happen.

I don't personally believe that anyone who supports Trump rationally fears socialism. In fact I think they've consciously eschewed rational thought as regards politics and embraced emotion.
 

olympic

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Regarding the back and forth about Miami by a few posters upthread:

I am also in Miami. I have lived here since 1995. I agree that in Miami (and elsewhere), Trump voters are not a monolith of crazed monsters BUT people need to understand that they do enable something bad and anti-Democratic by voting for him.

It has been interesting in my 25 years here. I came here with preconceived notions about the Latino community like a lot of non-Latin people. The big takeaway is not only is the Latino community very diverse culturally, but very diverse on the values they vote on. They also do not view themselves generally speaking as POC - A big mistaken assumption by white liberals.

My 1st experience in the 90s was viewing the schism between Cuban and non-Cuban Latinos. A Puerto Rican friend pointed out that existing issues between black Cubans and white Cubans in the community. A lot of white Cubans like to point out their ties to Spain (if they exist). The earlier Cuban arrivals to FL were whiter and the later arrivals starting around 1980 (Mariel boatlift) darker. The whiter Cubans didn't / don't mix with and look down on the darker later arrivals. They accuse them of being schooled by the communist government to be reliant on the government for a hand-out when they enter the US. I work with Cuban lawyers who say as much. Cuban Republicanism stem back to JFK and the Bay of Pigs fiasco. They happily celebrate the presidencies of Nixon, Reagan and so on.

Venezuelans are a newly identified voting bloc. From what I see, a lot of them loved the tough talk against Maduro and they enjoy Trump's swagger.

Other Latino groups such as Nicaraguans remember the fight against Ortega / Marxist-socialism and Reagan's lawbreaking stand against it. So, they also are open to Republicanism generally. My Nica neighbor at work has a dark-skinned mother who crossed the Rio Grande to be in the US. Trump would've tormented and deported her if she did that in 2018, but she voted for Trump. Why? She is Catholic and anti-abortion. White liberals shudder. But for her, it's not about being a POC, it's all about her religious values. I think she is an enabler but an important take away for a Democratic strategist is this; understand these nuances like the Trump campaign did.

IMO, Biden was lukewarm about FL. He had the resources to go all in but he seemed to be concentrating (perhaps smartly) on Hillary's 'blue wall', and even more on GA, AZ and NC which he lost by a much smaller margin. I felt smug that he lost my state but won anyway. Florida needs to learn it is not as needed for the EC as it thinks it is. HA
 

BlueRidge

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Venezuelans are a newly identified voting bloc. From what I see, a lot of them loved the tough talk against Maduro and they enjoy Trump's swagger.

and Trump did nothing to dislodge Maduro because as always he was all talk.

Let us hope those who seriously care about policy have noted this. Swagger and bluster are not policy. They resonate emotionally which is what Trump's appeal is all about.

Personally I think trying to explain and excuse people's support for Trump by saying that's its hostile to say they don't have good reasons for their support is a convoluted attempt at virtue signaling. There is no excuse for supporting Trump. Good people make bad choices. And it is reprehensible to defend people who made bad choices rather than hold them accountable.
 

olympic

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and Trump did nothing to dislodge Maduro because as always he was all talk.

Let us hope those who seriously care about policy have noted this. Swagger and bluster are not policy. They resonate emotionally which is what Trump's appeal is all about.

Personally I think trying to explain and excuse people's support for Trump by saying that's its hostile to say they don't have good reasons for their support is a convoluted attempt at virtue signaling. There is no excuse for supporting Trump. Good people make bad choices. And it is reprehensible to defend people who made bad choices rather than hold them accountable.
I have to say that I haven't had the chance to discuss politics with Venezuelans the way I have with Cubans, PRs, Nicaraguans, Colombians, and say Argentinians. My post was just an up-close observation of their voting patterns and yes, I even say in my post, those that vote for Trump (for any reason) are enablers and bear responsibility. BUT if Ds want them to listen, they need to understand the nuances. A lot of times, Ds miss that mark
 

BlueRidge

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I have to say that I haven't had the chance to discuss politics with Venezuelans the way I have with Cubans, PRs, Nicaraguans, Colombians, and say Argentinians. My post was just an up-close observation of their voting patterns and yes, I even say in my post, those that vote for Trump (for any reason) are enablers and bear responsibility. BUT if Ds want them to listen, they need to understand the nuances. A lot of times, Ds miss that mark
I wasn't suggesting you were excusing anyone. I appreciate your sharing your personal experience.

I don't think any national campaign is going to win people over who have not become involved in the party at the local level. If no one in Florida knows how to speak to constituencies there, its too late when there is a presidential campaign. People need to chose to involve themselves with a party's effort because it will improve their lives and that happens at a local level.

ETA: and just to add, you were talking about how Dems can win over voters which I think is a different thing than talking about why people voted for Trump. I don't think that the Dems had anything to do with people voting for Trump. I think he seriously gave people permission to feel angry, resentful, to feel animosity toward others, and this had a big appeal once people saw that it was acceptable to do this. Millions of people went on a big emotional bender in this country and we're going to spend a long time picking up the pieces.
 
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Dobre

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The "early" generation of Cuban immigrants--those that came when Castro took power--are quite unusual among the Latino immigrant population as a whole. They were largely wealthy and educated. And, for this reason, I would assume they were the driving force behind the power of the Cuban lobby. Cuban immigration is also unique in that there was no long wait for citizenship. Cuban athletes, for example, were allowed to go straight to the Olympics, do not pass go. This generation of Cuban immigrants did a lot of great things. Bilingual education, for example, was essentially dead in the United States after WWII, due to anti-German sentiment. (Prior to that time period, German was the most common native language for ESL students in the U.S.). Cuban immigrants arrived with many teachers & professionals and started modern bilingual education in this country.

But most Latino immigration movements are not the elite. I think it is important to realize that the lobbyists for this particular group--while having a strong voice in politics--are not a majority.
 

BlueRidge

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You know, they were just playing an excerpt of Trump on the call. He sounds drunk to me.

but whatever it is I sure as hell am not interested in hearing "why" someone still supports this incompetent corrupt person in the presidency. I do not care what they have to say. They just need to stop.
 

Susan1

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So if it's state crimes, he would just not come back? The thing with federal crimes is that he has thrown out pardons for a zillion of his underlings, family and maybe even himself. I don't know how things work.
Georgia and New York will have to fight it out to see who gets him first.
 

Susan1

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I watched a bit of Fox News yesterday. They were reasonable.
 

ballettmaus

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I think the Republican Party will go through tumult but I think it likely will come out the other side as still the Republican Party. I think eventually it will expel the crazies; the reality is they are the radicals so they are more likely to do something explosive like dump the party.
Would they though? They know that's the only way they can stay in power/get power.

So, because you see him as an authoritarian
Yeah me, scholars of authoritarianism and those who lived in authoritarian regimes or otherwise have experienced it/have experience with it.

and because some people see Biden as either socialist or communist, someone from the other side can come and complain that even though we agree with most issues that Biden is going for, at the end of the day, we are still supporting a communist. Do I have your logic correct yet? Or is it different because you're not a conservative?
I have no idea what you're saying.

I don't know what kind of social circles you surround yourself in, but the majority of people don't sit on a message board complaining about a President all day long. There are so many people here that endlessly talk about how they are giving away all of their stimulus money because they don't need it,
I don't know how that relates to voting Republican no matter what.

there are also many people who know deep down that it doesn't matter which candidate becomes President- it won't change their lives much, if at all.
I don't think we vote just for ourselves or voting only for the short-term. Better access to equal education wouldn't change my life directly and I'm assuming it wouldn't change yours directly either but I still think it would affect my life in the long-run and for the better.
Likewise, while we're all already affected by global warming, we're probably not the ones who would suffer the greatest from the consequences. I don't think that's a reason to not vote for the person who's committed to fighting climate change. And while the US can't do it alone, cleaner energy, electric cars and fewer pesticides etc would still affect me because I'd be living healthier.


I can tell you that the younger LGBTQ generation is very, very active on social media. We are a typically stingy group. If for some wild reason a Republican would come in and push for LGBTQ rights while the Democrat didn't say anything or wanted to reverse some things, you better believe a lot of the community would vote for that Republican because LGBTQ rights IS the number one thing for them. Are you going to try to tell them that this isn't their number one issue?
Sure it's their number one issue. But there's a difference between something being a number one issue and voting for someone because of that issue no matter what. I'd assume that only those who don't believe authoritarianism can happen here or are willing to ignore the threat of authoritariansim/downplay it would be voting for that candidate. And that goes for both parties.


And like I said, the same people would rather come here and continuously analyze everything Trump does to death via reading or watching summaries of what he said or did.
Watching summaries of what he said or did is not the same as watching an entire town hall. And how is watching a summary different from reading an article that summarizes what he said or did? (And before you tell me that articles are biased, articles and reports from German news outlets basically report the same).
 

olympic

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The "early" generation of Cuban immigrants--those that came when Castro took power--are quite unusual among the Latino immigrant population as a whole. They were largely wealthy and educated. And, for this reason, I would assume they were the driving force behind the power of the Cuban lobby. Cuban immigration is also unique in that there was no long wait for citizenship. Cuban athletes, for example, were allowed to go straight to the Olympics, do not pass go. This generation of Cuban immigrants did a lot of great things. Bilingual education, for example, was essentially dead in the United States after WWII, due to anti-German sentiment. (Prior to that time period, German was the most common native language for ESL students in the U.S.). Cuban immigrants arrived with many teachers & professionals and started modern bilingual education in this country.

But most Latino immigration movements are not the elite. I think it is important to realize that the lobbyists for this particular group--while having a strong voice in politics--are not a majority.
There is an idea of Cubans being perceived as pulling the ladder up behind them.
I wasn't suggesting you were excusing anyone. I appreciate your sharing your personal experience.

I don't think any national campaign is going to win people over who have not become involved in the party at the local level. If no one in Florida knows how to speak to constituencies there, its too late when there is a presidential campaign. People need to chose to involve themselves with a party's effort because it will improve their lives and that happens at a local level.

ETA: and just to add, you were talking about how Dems can win over voters which I think is a different thing than talking about why people voted for Trump. I don't think that the Dems had anything to do with people voting for Trump. I think he seriously gave people permission to feel angry, resentful, to feel animosity toward others, and this had a big appeal once people saw that it was acceptable to do this. Millions of people went on a big emotional bender in this country and we're going to spend a long time picking up the pieces.

Local level - I could not agree more. In FL, that is a big problem for Ds, lack of local leaders with bright futures who get people ears
 

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