2020 OG Gymnastics Thread: The Takedown In Tokyo

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
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Official results.

Russia won this handily...3+ points ahead of USA.

Very close among #s 3, 4, 5 & 6. GB really eeked out the bronze! Great for them. Who’d have thunk?
 

soogar

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What needs repercussions is your nasty post.
should she have gone on and (quote Simone) carried out on a stretcher? She did the best for the team she could today.
and the place in the AA is hers. She earned it. No one has any rights to it unless she choses to give it up.
What if she scratches all around as well? You are going to sit there and defend her when there is another gymnast ready to go?
 

Tesla

Whippet Good
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I believe Simone. She has had a tremendous amount of pressure placed on her. The entire burden of the team was on her shoulders. In Rio, she had Aly to help. With the protocols, she doesn't have as much outside help in Tokyo. I think she cracked and did the best for the team. She didn't abandon them. She was out there cheering for and supporting them. I also wonder if the Olympics are triggering her. With team final out of the way, I hope she can regroup, find her center, and continue.
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
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I will say I almost feel like pulling out and being very open about not being mentally ready is going to do so much more for people than winning gold (even if they could have) would. What an incredible example this sets for people to show that some days, you just can't do it, even if you are the best at what you do, and that's ok. It's ok to pull back and protect yourself.
 

Hedwig

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What if she scratches all around as well? You are going to sit there and defend her when there is another gymnast ready to go?
you are familiar with the concept that sometimes favored gymnasts fall, are injured but compete nonetheless (sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't).
If she feels like she has a chance to compete, I would never blame her if the pressure gets to her and she loses a medal.

Just like I would not blame Jade, being thrown into an unexpected AA spot and then not dealing with the pressure. They all do their bests.

And now you go on my ignore list, I really don't need this nasty stuff.
 

VGThuy

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What if she scratches all around as well? You are going to sit there and defend her when there is another gymnast ready to go?
The other gymnast didn’t qualify ahead of Lee or Simone, so either way her berth on the AA is reliant on other people’s actions. If Simone felt ready to compete and completed her sets in practice but then has another major issue on AA, then those are the breaks. Lots of top AAers withdraw if they get injured or can’t complete the competition.
 

Karen-W

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Simone is once again telling press she's not injured, but also that she didn't want to get injured. Wanted to "focus on her mindfulness" and "take a backseat."

For her part Skinner is tweeting in support of the team and Simone.
Hmmm... So, what this really says is that upping the technical ante the way her team did the last few years HAS had a mental toll on her. To the point that she's scared of injuring herself and, on the biggest stage for her sport, she couldn't cope with the stress the possibility of injury had on her mentally.

This is going to give more fuel to those who supported the devaluing of those most difficult elements as a way of discouraging WAG from putting themselves in extreme physical danger.
 

love_skate2011

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Can we just say, China women are such headcases they have flopped for 3 Olympics now,
at least they could have easily clinched that bronze from GB
 

Hedwig

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I will say I almost feel like pulling out and being very open about not being mentally ready is going to do so much more for people than winning gold (even if they could have) would. What an incredible example this sets for people to show that some days, you just can't do it, even if you are the best at what you do, and that's ok. It's ok to pull back and protect yourself.
that's exactly it. I dealt with mental health in my life as well and know how important it still is to be open about it because it still is regarded as weak.
and I also tend to over-exert my self and not step back and protect myself - I am still learning how to do this. And this is a great example of how to do it even in very important moments. We can all learn from her!

Imagine Kerri Strug not jumping the second vault but saying - no - I am injured and don't want to risk a life-time of problems with a second vault? I would have loved her for it and it would absolutely have been the right thing to do. I still despise Bela for urging her on.
 

Cachoo

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Also does anyone have a feeling this will herald a new era of Russian domination ?
like when Yulia won gold in Sochi.

Russia might dominate like in Ladies Figure Skating and Rhythmic Gymnastics
What did Mary Lou do for US gymnastics? It just takes one Olympics to set little minds on fire and Russia now has two gold medal teams to inspire the little ones.
 

Rukia

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Hmmm... So, what this really says is that upping the technical ante the way her team did the last few years HAS had a mental toll on her. To the point that she's scared of injuring herself and, on the biggest stage for her sport, she couldn't cope with the stress the possibility of injury had on her mentally.
I don't think that's what she's saying. I think she's just saying she didn't trust herself to be able to safely perform anything.
 

love_skate2011

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But Yulia's (and others') gold medal in the team event didn't lead to (team event) domination in 2018. ;) Although they might very well win in Beijing.
But Yulia was the face of russian ladies figure skating, she was the one hounded by the press that also contributed to her pressure skating in singles.

Nobody talks about Sotnikova, because it will just bring up again yunabots, scandals and nobody just likes to talk about it or her.
 

Karen-W

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I don't think that's what she's saying. I think she's just saying she didn't trust herself to be able to safely perform anything.
Again, it's sort of a chicken and egg scenario here. Would Simone have felt capable of safely performing her routines had she not increased her technical level so much? We'll never know for sure, but it isn't making a strong argument for letting WAG continue in that direction.
 

Rukia

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I also want to give some props to Cecile Landi, who heard her athlete and immediately just supported her needs. Cecile seems to be the emotional support for both Simone and Jordan, and she seems very proud of their silver medal as well.
 

OlieRow

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millyskate

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This is going to give more fuel to those who supported the devaluing of those most difficult elements as a way of discouraging WAG from putting themselves in extreme physical danger.

There's been a massive narrative in the press and amongst fans about the low valuations being "anti-Simone" and I've always staunchly disagreed.
There were 100 reasons why the FIG didn't want to reward them - for example for extreme dismounts on beam, only a handful of nations are able to afford apparatus over pits to practice those dismounts safely. You cannot ethically prevent gymnasts from poorer programs wanting to compete high difficulty scores to compete with the rich federation gymnasts. But you can slow down the high difficulty elements from populating the code so that nobody in any country puts their life on the line for the sake of being competitive.
As for the Yurchenko double pike, I've been both in awe and cringing since watching it. And I do not believe it would have been right to assign a crazy high value to an element that only 1 gymnast could perform safely if that. Because I wasn't convinced, watching Simone, that even her body was holding up. And there was a strong precedent for this stance by the FIG with the Produnova vault.

And while the conversation is focused on mental health right now, it's hard to believe that either underlying injuries and/or the constant pushing of boundaries haven't played a part. We were mentioning only a few pages back Laurent's coaching style and I'd said already I saw red flags all over his interview. I won't be surprised if his tactics with Simone do come under scrutiny down the line.
 

puglover

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If I understand this correctly, Simone is not claiming a physical injury but acknowledging a mental/emotional issue. Disappointing as this is to happen now, I see it as an important acknowledgement. We hear of skaters retiring claiming injury when it was in fact due to an eating disorder. It has always been more acceptable to suffer from a physical ailment than a mental one.
 

VGThuy

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There's been a massive narrative in the press and amongst fans about the low valuations being "anti-Simone" and I've always staunchly disagreed.
There were 100 reasons why the FIG didn't want to reward them - for example for extreme dismounts on beam, only a handful of nations are able to afford apparatus over pits to practice those dismounts safely. You cannot ethically prevent gymnasts from poorer programs wanting to compete high difficulty scores to compete with the rich federation gymnasts. But you can slow down the high difficulty elements from populating the code so that nobody in any country puts their life on the line for the sake of being competitive.
As for the Yurchenko double pike, I've been both in awe and cringing since watching it. And I do not believe it would have been right to assign a crazy high value to an element that only 1 gymnast could perform safely if that. Because I wasn't convinced, watching Simone, that even her body was holding up. And there was a strong precedent for this stance by the FIG with the Produnova vault.

And while the conversation is focused on mental health right now, it's hard to believe that either underlying injuries and/or the constant pushing of boundaries haven't played a part. We were mentioning only a few pages back Laurent's coaching style and I'd said already I saw red flags all over his interview. I won't be surprised if his tactics with Simone do come under scrutiny down the line.
That hasn't stopped other crazy elements from being valued highly where only a handful (one handful) of gymnasts could do it. Speaking of the Produnova vault, it spent like 15 years being crazily valued and we had more than a decade worth of gymnasts from small federations chucking the skill in the hopes their neck or butts don't touch the matt and they can make it to vault finals as NOBODY does two vaults anymore unless you're a VT specialist or Simone because of the high level of difficulty required today. Sure, it's been devalued now, but so has every other vault. If they really cared about athlete safety, they would do something about this open-ended judging system and put caps on the D-score or something. The fact is those elements are highly devalued and the FIG is NOTORIOUS for being very selective about which hard skills are given more-or-less accurate values and which ones they want to discourage for "safety".
 

becca

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The thing is gymnastics is a sport if you do one wrong move you could get paralyzed. So you have to be mentally strong. I do think maybe Simones program was to difficult. She has great form but in this sport you want to be at place where you can do the skills easily with controlling.

Tumbling out of bounds and of the Matt shouldn’t result in big deductions Because it indicates lack of control.

To me part of being great is being able to pull things under pressure and they should have been prepared for a much improved Russia
 

VGThuy

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The thing is gymnastics is a sport if you do one wrong move you could get paralyzed. So you have to be mentally strong. I do think maybe Simones program was to difficult. She has great form but in this sport you want to be at place where you can do the skills easily with controlling.

Tumbling out of bounds and of the Matt shouldn’t result in big deductions Because it indicates lack of control.

To me part of being great is being able to pull things under pressure and they should have been prepared for a much improved Russia
But who's to say what's too difficult and what's not too difficult? Gymnastics ten years ago would be seen as way too difficult by those competing in Sydney. So on and so forth.

And your criticisms of Simone are duly noted, but she has shown dominance since 2013 and in this sport that's unprecedented. Your need to take Simone down a few pegs is questionable. She has had more in-bound hit routines than most gymnasts have in their career and has shown she can compete under pressure.

Tumbling out of bounds and of the Matt shouldn’t result in big deductions Because it indicates lack of control.
Many past champions had bad routines and messed up and still pulled out gold. Including Russia's favorite, Svetlana Khorkina who had many comps with errors where she pulled off wins.
 

millyskate

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That hasn't stopped other crazy elements from being valued highly where only a handful (one handful) of gymnasts could do it. If they really cared about athlete safety, they would do something about this open-ended judging system and put caps on the D-score or something. The fact is those elements are highly devalued and the FIG is NOTORIOUS for being very selective about which hard skills are given more-or-less accurate values and which ones they want to discourage for "safety".
In WAG I disagree - they've devalued all the glaringly unsafe ones I can think of, including the Thomas saltos on floor, the Mukhina on UB, the Produnova vault, the Teza on beam, the ruflova ... Seems actually really consistent to me...

I think it probably escapes a lot of the fans whose teams have amazing training facilities but for example Oleg Vernaiev, in his pre-ban days, was intensely lobbying to bring awareness to the implications of not having pits to practice dismounts of apparatus. And Srbic from Croatia has to practice his high bar in a sports hall over hard floor... people give him a hard time for not having crazy releases but actually, it's great the code allows other ways to build difficulty and stay competitive.
 

VGThuy

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In WAG I disagree - they've devalued all the glaringly unsafe ones I can think of, including the Thomas saltos on floor, the Mukhina on UB, the Produnova vault, the Teza on beam, the ruflova ... Seems actually really consistent to me...

I think it probably escapes a lot of the fans whose teams have amazing training facilities but for example Oleg Vernaiev, in his pre-ban days, was intensely lobbying to bring awareness to the implications of not having pits to practice dismounts of apparatus. And Srbic from Croatia has to practice his high bar in a sports hall over hard floor... people give him a hard time for not having crazy releases but actually, it's great the code allows other ways to build difficulty and stay competitive.
Yes, I know the history of the FIG trying to stop dominant teams from staying dominant by tweaking the code every so often to force the sport to be more competitive. That's how we got 3-up-3-count where most other sports would try to improve programs rather than dumb it down just because its dying in other countries.

And I disagree with you. Produnovas were never that devalued. The Thomas was only banned on floor after someone actually got injured on it but before that they were all about it, and that was not the case of only one person being only able to train it safely since so many gymnasts were doing it. I do think there are arguments gym fans can make about how selective the FIG WAG Tech Committee is when it comes to assigning values to skills.
 

museksk8r

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All I can say is I hope any decision about this is carefully considered.

I'm a big fan of Simone ... but we don't need to see a repeat of today in the AA finals.

If she is not ready to compete, for whatever reason, she needs to acknowledge that honestly and allow Jade Carey to take the AA spot.
This, absolutely!
 

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