2020 Non-Presidential U.S. Elections

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,154
@snoopy (since you're one of the few serious posters on this thread), I largely agree with you and think there's potential for common ground, outside of the far AOC/Sanders left.

I don't think people need to be wealthy. I can live quite comfortably on $60k or less. I've designed my life this way. When you don't have money, you never want to "not have money" again. (Or at least that's my experience.) I could write a book on the things I do that people (now including my father, who brought me up this way!) tell me, "you don't need to do that anymore."

I'm fine with, and even strongly supportive of, some kind of basic healthcare for citizens and lawful residents who need it. I'm supportive of capping healthcare costs as a percentage of income - even something really low like 5% of income - preferably with more aggressive cost controls because the government can't afford this cost any more than individuals can.

Beyond that, it's a much more complicated question... I don't think Walmart needs any cashiers. It's a job that's largely better automated. And I don't know what to do about that. I tend to think UBI is not the answer, but I don't have a better one, so I can't rule it out. I would love something like mandatory 20-hour or three-day workweeks or mandatory job-sharing (wouldn't it be great if all this technology gives us more free time!), but that ignores the fact that we can't find highly skilled workers to do the existing tech jobs, much less double ones. I'd be open to free college tuition for certain majors in which there are shortages.

That said, there are things we can do now - personal responsibilities we can take. I work with a few recently emigrated Italians in London. Most are working minimum wage jobs, have minimal English skills, are sharing studio apartments with other people, and sometimes even skipping meals. With a commitment to 1) not complain, 2) learn English, and 3) watch and imitate the behavior of the people whose jobs you want, I've helped several of them transition to much higher paying jobs -- e.g., sales assistants at boutiques, working in tech or telco retail, etc. This isn't a magic solution, but they've doubled their salaries (around $30-40k USD) and have career paths. One is in training to become a visual merchandiser. We managed to accomplish this in a matter of 3-6 months. Granted, we still have a good economy, and the UK is like the US with most of the good jobs concentrated in a few places, and these people are young (20s, 30s). I just can't accept this helpless, pessimistic world view of socialists. There has to be an alternative. I'm willing to meet in the middle, if we can figure out a middle.
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,154
She works pretty hard at this cushy job.

@PRlady will know better than me how much it costs to live in the DC, but I get the sense that 175K doesn't go as far there as it would in some places. Especially when you also have to maintain a residence in New York.
AOC herself attacked an analysis that a family of four, with $350k in income, could possibly be middle class and struggling. I believe her quip was, "struggling with math." (And, to be honest, I agree with her - the analysis was ridiculous and including things like a Range Rover, a large house, and $50k in savings.) So $175k, even with two residences, should be quite comfortable.

I'm not surprised that her base would say things like "$175k doesn't go as far there," but this is exactly the type of upper middle class, tone-deaf socialism that is limiting the far left's support outside of coastal elite areas.
 

Zemgirl

Well-Known Member
Messages
12,797
I'm not surprised that her base would say things like "$175k doesn't go as far there," but this is exactly the type of upper middle class, tone-deaf socialism that is limiting the far left's support outside of coastal elite areas.
I'm hardly AOC's base.

I'll defer to PRlady on this matter.
 

Aerobicidal

Inspired by Selections
Messages
10,614
Margaret Thatcher was a woman, too, and said it best: "the problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher also said, "Children are being taught they have an inalienable right to be gay. All of those children are being cheated of a sound start in life."

But I guess the fact that she was a staunch capitalist makes it okay that she was a homophobe. And maybe even okay that she was a woman!
 

Erin

Well-Known Member
Messages
9,684
Warren supporters and others seem to be taking the extreme position that you cannot possibly criticize a woman.

Should you all have rallied around Sarah Palin? Sarah Sanders? Betsy De Vos? You've supported "some women," too, on the basis of their policies and positions. Oh wait, the rules only apply to people critical of the far left.....
I wouldn't consider myself far left or a particular supporter of either Warren or AOC (not that it matters because I can't vote, but my preferred candidate was Buttigieg), but your criticisms of both of them still come across as over the top.
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,154
I wouldn't consider myself far left or a particular supporter of either Warren or AOC (not that it matters because I can't vote, but my preferred candidate was Buttigieg), but your criticisms of both of them still come across as over the top.
This is a fair point, though I'll counter that I thought FSU's support of Warren was "over the top" (and voters landed more on my side :shuffle:) and generally blind to her (obvious, to me) weaknesses. I don't like Bernie Sanders either, but in general, I think FSU is more "representative" on him v. was very skewed on Warren -- again, supported by data and ultimately results :shuffle:.

In any case, it's a moot point now. I hope I wasn't more "over the top" that I would have been for male candidates - I have strong views, generally, when it comes to the far left. If I think back to 2008, I was just as strongly pro-Clinton and anti-Obama, and I admit I was wrong on that one. Obama was a moderate in liberal clothing and made a much better president than Clinton would have.
 

Sparks

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,867
Here is a list of Democrats running for Senate. The Senate is flippable.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
Messages
7,316
That said, there are things we can do now - personal responsibilities we can take. I work with a few recently emigrated Italians in London. Most are working minimum wage jobs, have minimal English skills, are sharing studio apartments with other people, and sometimes even skipping meals. With a commitment to 1) not complain, 2) learn English, and 3) watch and imitate the behavior of the people whose jobs you want, I've helped several of them transition to much higher paying jobs -- e.g., sales assistants at boutiques, working in tech or telco retail, etc. This isn't a magic solution, but they've doubled their salaries (around $30-40k USD) and have career paths. One is in training to become a visual merchandiser. We managed to accomplish this in a matter of 3-6 months.
While I can appreciate your willingness and commitment to help recent immigrants, this is another good example of why I take issue with your posts lately. You only want to help them when they "don't complain" about sharing overcrowded apartments and going hungry. My view is the opposite - we ought to encourage compassion and help needy people when we can without placing conditions on whether or not they keep their comments to themselves about their dire living conditions. Having compassion and understanding doesn't mean everyone automatically endorses those who improperly take advantage of government programs and situations, despite your insistence otherwise.

Regarding item 3), I also interpret many of your comments as being very inflexible when it comes to the kinds of jobs people are expected to want. I doubt some of the people I read here are actually willing to think creatively about how to get people to 60K+ a year primarily based on the types of jobs people want vs. their own definitions of acceptable career and educational paths.
 
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ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,970
That said, there are things we can do now - personal responsibilities we can take. I work with a few recently emigrated Italians in London. Most are working minimum wage jobs, have minimal English skills, are sharing studio apartments with other people, and sometimes even skipping meals. With a commitment to 1) not complain
I think if you think people who live in those conditions and can't afford to eat properly should not complain there's something deeply wrong in your thinking. How about we move you into a studio apartment with strangers and take away a few of your meals?
Immigrants are human beings and they'd have every right to complain. We treat animals better than this.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,356
Maybe I missed the memo but I can't recall AOC complaining. I can recall that she decided to do something about a rather crappy job. Now she has a much better one. And she has a better apartment and probably helped her family. Which is ... the American dream, isn't it?

Just because you don't like her/don't like her politics doesn't mean she didn't earn her way to a higher socioeconomic status.
 

Aerobicidal

Inspired by Selections
Messages
10,614
So you first say AOC belongs behind a bar, and then you made a bunch of posts complaining about her not working a "real job". :rolleyes:
None of us are smrt enough to understand Louis's "logic." For me, it's because my English skills are unposssibly bad.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,667
I guess we all can at least agree that AOC is using her education and degree now.

I’m remembering during the Obama years there was one poster who kept trying to find things to undermine him, like saying he never once published an article when he was Editor-in-Chief for Harvard Law Review when it was clear that poster had no idea what a legal journal or article was because if he knew then he would know that wasn’t a real criticism. That poster tried to insinuate Obama didn’t deserve his spots at various universities and only got them through Affirmative Action or whatever, but it’s like...he became a Senator and then President. So even if he did get in through affirmative action...it worked. A spot wasn’t wasted on him, was it?
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
Messages
7,316
I don't get the lately part. :confused: Louis has always been like this.
Louis and I agree on lots of things. For example skating, quality, work ethic, historic bungalows. Just not some of these PI issues. He talks big, but I bet he'd give me a ride or get me a Uber if I was ever down on my luck and needed a ride to the foodbank. :lol:
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,154
Louis and I agree on lots of things. For example skating, quality, work ethic, historic bungalows. Just not some of these PI issues. He talks big, but I bet he'd give me a ride or get me a Uber if I was ever down on my luck and needed a ride to the foodbank. :lol:
If you’re ever that down on your luck, we’re all effed because you are nothing if not responsible and determined. I’d give you my credit card and tell you to go crazy because I know you wouldn’t. And you’d be going to Trader Joe’s or similar, not the food bank.
 

VGThuy

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Messages
31,667
If you’re ever that down on your luck, we’re all effed because you are nothing if not responsible and determined. I’d give you my credit card and tell you to go crazy because I know you wouldn’t. And you’d be going to Trader Joe’s or similar, not the food bank.
I’m obsessed with Trader Joe’s.
 

Louis

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,154
I’m obsessed with Trader Joe’s.
Were you in NYC when the Union Square store first opened? People lined up outside the store, the fire marshall had to be there almost daily, food was being pulled off shelves faster than it could be restocked, and the checkout line began at the front door and snaked around the entire store. This went on for years until the Chelsea location opened. (I think that store opening increased my property value by more than the Highline opening.) And even then, the long waits still happened, just less extremely.

I’ve never seen notoriously impatient New Yorkers stand in a queue more happily. But the quality of the food was so much better than anything else (except Whole Paychecks) at a fraction of the price.

The workers always seemed super happy, super diverse, and I think they had benefits and were paid fairly well.(Caveat: I haven’t done thorough research.) Let’s make America like Trader Joe’s. :lol:
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
Messages
7,316
I love Trader Joe's too. The real Trader Joe who started the business died last week. :( We only have them in the suburbs here, so I have to limit my visits to once every couple months because I try to walk more and drive less so I can monitor and reduce my carbon footprints.
 

caseyedwards

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Messages
13,832
Tester votes 90% of the time with Schumer so as long as Bullock talks like he’s a moderate like tester he could win! It’s amazing how liberal tester is and it wasn’t bad at all for his reelection. Montana is so never trump it will vote for pro gun control, pro choice, anti conservative judges. It’s like jennifer rubin conservative now

Jon Tester and Charles E. Schumer are from the same party and agreed on 84 percent of votes in the 115th Congress (2017-18).

Jon Tester and Bernard Sanders are from the same party and agreed on 71 percent of votes in the 115th Congress (2017-18).


Jon Tester and Tammy Baldwin are from the same party and agreed on 87 percent of votes in the 115th Congress (2017-18).
 
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VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
31,667
Were you in NYC when the Union Square store first opened? People lined up outside the store, the fire marshall had to be there almost daily, food was being pulled off shelves faster than it could be restocked, and the checkout line began at the front door and snaked around the entire store. This went on for years until the Chelsea location opened. (I think that store opening increased my property value by more than the Highline opening.) And even then, the long waits still happened, just less extremely.

I’ve never seen notoriously impatient New Yorkers stand in a queue more happily. But the quality of the food was so much better than anything else (except Whole Paychecks) at a fraction of the price.

The workers always seemed super happy, super diverse, and I think they had benefits and were paid fairly well.(Caveat: I haven’t done thorough research.) Let’s make America like Trader Joe’s. :lol:
I was not there when the first store opened in Union Square. That opened about six years before I came. That description sounds like New Yorkers getting something new. Thank goodness I moved there when I did because there were more to choose from, and I was a late bloomer to the Trader Joe's craze. I go to the one in Cobble Hill a few blocks from me. Btw, Whole Paychecks is right.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
22,961
I'm not surprised that her base would say things like "$175k doesn't go as far there," but this is exactly the type of upper middle class, tone-deaf socialism that is limiting the far left's support outside of coastal elite areas.
But a lot of the upper middle class people who lament about money are not socialist.

Our societies generally have a 'not enough' mentality, mostly 'not being enough' and 'not having enough'.

My sister is a good example. She and her husband did really well when they sold their home in a peak real estate market and then designed their own very nice home in a nice neighbourhood, in a different city. Both of them had good paying jobs and are now retired with good pensions. They are going to be comfortable for the rests of their lives, and have two very successful daughters who now own their own homes.

And they will say "we're only middle class". I suppose that's true, even though they have way more money than I ever will.

Who benefits from everyone believing they don't have enough?

How would the world be different if those who had enough, believed it?
 
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Vagabond

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Messages
15,394
Candidate trying to oust Rep. Ben McAdams, who has *********-19, edits hospital beds out of video

Days before Rep. Ben McAdams announced he had *********-19, a candidate vying to unseat the Utah Democrat launched his campaign with a video featuring lawmakers being wheeled on hospital beds through what appear to be the halls of Congress.

That part of the video, for Republican hopeful Trent Christensen, was edited out from the version posted on the candidate’s website Wednesday, as cases of the new ******** that causes *********-19 spiked across the country and hours before McAdams and another lawmaker, Florida GOP Rep. Mario Diaz-Balart, announced they had contracted the *****.
:duh:

There's a clip at the top of the page, though it doesn't include the "I'm Trent Christensen, and I approved this ad" bit.
 

canbelto

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,356
In other news, Jeff Sessions is still acting lovestruck about Donald Trump:


After Trump fired him. And endorsed his opponent. Someone needs to get Jeff Sessions into counseling.
 

Peaches LaTour

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,280
I’m obsessed with Trader Joe’s.
I shop there a lot & they have been absolutely wonderful during this ***** crisis. Our particular store even handed out two (per customer) of their small hand sanitizers to the customers.

The only thing that would make them more wonderful would be if they sold lotto tickets. :)
 

Peaches LaTour

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,280
@snoopy (since you're one of the few serious posters on this thread), I largely agree with you and think there's potential for common ground, outside of the far AOC/Sanders left.

I don't think people need to be wealthy. I can live quite comfortably on $60k or less. I've designed my life this way. When you don't have money, you never want to "not have money" again. (Or at least that's my experience.) I could write a book on the things I do that people (now including my father, who brought me up this way!) tell me, "you don't need to do that anymore."

I'm fine with, and even strongly supportive of, some kind of basic healthcare for citizens and lawful residents who need it. I'm supportive of capping healthcare costs as a percentage of income - even something really low like 5% of income - preferably with more aggressive cost controls because the government can't afford this cost any more than individuals can.

Beyond that, it's a much more complicated question... I don't think Walmart needs any cashiers. It's a job that's largely better automated. And I don't know what to do about that. I tend to think UBI is not the answer, but I don't have a better one, so I can't rule it out. I would love something like mandatory 20-hour or three-day workweeks or mandatory job-sharing (wouldn't it be great if all this technology gives us more free time!), but that ignores the fact that we can't find highly skilled workers to do the existing tech jobs, much less double ones. I'd be open to free college tuition for certain majors in which there are shortages.

That said, there are things we can do now - personal responsibilities we can take. I work with a few recently emigrated Italians in London. Most are working minimum wage jobs, have minimal English skills, are sharing studio apartments with other people, and sometimes even skipping meals. With a commitment to 1) not complain, 2) learn English, and 3) watch and imitate the behavior of the people whose jobs you want, I've helped several of them transition to much higher paying jobs -- e.g., sales assistants at boutiques, working in tech or telco retail, etc. This isn't a magic solution, but they've doubled their salaries (around $30-40k USD) and have career paths. One is in training to become a visual merchandiser. We managed to accomplish this in a matter of 3-6 months. Granted, we still have a good economy, and the UK is like the US with most of the good jobs concentrated in a few places, and these people are young (20s, 30s). I just can't accept this helpless, pessimistic world view of socialists. There has to be an alternative. I'm willing to meet in the middle, if we can figure out a middle.
You as a single person could live quite comfortably on 60k?

Who couldn't?

BTW, our local Wal-Mart only provides self-checkout lines.
 
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caseyedwards

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Messages
13,832
It’s like he has guilt and is trying to make up for not being like barr and shutting down russia collusion investigation
 

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