toe walley vs. toe loop; walleys
- Thread starter Sylvia
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So apart from the edge, it actually does not look like a salchow to me! It's why I was surprised, I totally thought it'd have salchow mechanics mixed in (salchow is built upon the waltz jump). But it just looks like a swingy wrong edge lutz jump without toe pick. I'm stunned, and don't actually know how she did it
bardtoob
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I feel like the Baxel has the mechanics of a toeless Toe Axel.
delayedaxel
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Probably too difficult to do it properly with multiple revolutions safely? It's basically an euler with the free leg behind on take off if you look at it, but landed forward and on the outside edge. So basically taking off RBO and landing LFO instead of LBI. A downgraded double version. Probably too hard on the foot to do multiple revolutions?
I'd like them to allow it as a very neat transition into the +Axel sequence though. Additional GOE if attempted!
skateboy
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I don't think Janet was necessarily "bad" at figures... unfortunately, she was always up against Trixi Schuba.
Yup. Janet was always ranked relatively high after figures (at least in the 69-72 cycle), but the point system was different back then and while she may have gotten ~4.0 on each of the 6 figures, Schuba was probably scoring at least 0.5 higher on most scorecards, times nine judges, times six patterns, and that cushion she gave herself was more than enough.
Then in the free skate, all the top skaters were getting scored very closely together (common throughout the end of 6.0) and there wasn't any possible way to catch up as such.
skateboy
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As a former roller competitor, I can vouch for toe walleys being a very popular jump there.
We would skate into the corner (where lutzes are popular) on a VERY deep inside edge, making it very clear it was a toe walley and not a toe loop (which is called "Mapes" in roller skating).
I've never really seen a toe walley in ice skating. I do remember Dick and Peggy calling one of Elaine Zayak's jumps a toe walley in 1994, and thinking there was nothing "toe walley" about it... it took off from a clear outside edge.
Not really sure why the toe walley hasn't taken off (pun intended!) in ice skating. It would give another accessible jump to the competitors, and it's certainly easier than loop. flip, or lutz.
We would skate into the corner (where lutzes are popular) on a VERY deep inside edge, making it very clear it was a toe walley and not a toe loop (which is called "Mapes" in roller skating).
I've never really seen a toe walley in ice skating. I do remember Dick and Peggy calling one of Elaine Zayak's jumps a toe walley in 1994, and thinking there was nothing "toe walley" about it... it took off from a clear outside edge.
Not really sure why the toe walley hasn't taken off (pun intended!) in ice skating. It would give another accessible jump to the competitors, and it's certainly easier than loop. flip, or lutz.
Is it any different from toe loop in difficulty in your opinion?
This has been such an amazingly underrated comment on this thread lol
skateboy
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Yes, it's harder, due to having to hold the inside edge on the takeoff. Toe loops are much easier. (Kind of like how many skaters flutz, being that a true lutz is more difficult than a flip -- at least, for most skaters.)
Well it's to be expected, due to the counter-rotation. Can you show me a video of toe walleys from roller skating, so that I can see whether or not they're true toe walleys?
delayedaxel
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I was also wondering why you don't say "Rittberger" in the anglophone world but "loop jump".
That is very interesting to hear that it's much more popular in roller. I agree that many of what were called toe walleys by commentators and skaters didn't have a clear inside edge on the takeoff (and definitely not a real curve of edge to the inside). However, Janet Lynn's in post 8 was very clear.
Do you know if it's considered a different jump from a toe loop on rollers? It's not on ice under IJS which is one reason there wouldn't be much incentive to do it since it doesn't add another potential listed jump to the repertoire and isn't worth any more base value than a toe loop despite being clearly more difficult when correctly executed.
I don't know why it came to be that way, but "loop" is the official term used in the ISU Special Regulations and Technical Rules, Scale of Values, and Handbooks.
Yes, and it has been that way since the start of IJS, as well. I remember when we used to do PBP (or mostly after the broadcast) threads in the late 90's and early 2000's, many people denoted 3R for the loop to differentiate between that and the Lutz. But in IJS, it's always been Lo.
I think this is the real reason, also mentioned by bardtoob.
I don't actually know how the roller skating toe walley works, of course. But I think the usual set up to the toe walley in figure skating won't actually make it have the "true" counterrotation as bardtoob says. Just having a split second inside edge (which we still haven't seen for triples or quads) won't really make it any more difficult than a usual toe loop.
gkelly
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In French, the loop jump is called "boucle," which is French for "loop." (And toe loop is called boucle piqué.)
Toe walleys and toe loops have been considered the same jump for purposes of the Zayak rule ever since the mid-1980s.
Toe walleys and toe loops have been considered the same jump for purposes of the Zayak rule ever since the mid-1980s.
The Axel-Baxel-Axel (ABA)
First ever baxel (in combination, caught on tape.)Baxel : backwards axel- take off RBO, land LFO.Skater : Tian WangCredits to Mary for conveniently having he...
www.youtube.com
skateboy
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skateboy
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I will have to look it up. Will do so in the next day or two.
skateboy
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Well, I found an example although this girl starts on a deep inside edge and then flattens it out before jumping. Better skaters maintain the inside edge:
skateboy
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This toe walley is a little better entrance than the other one I posted. This one's a triple:
youtu.be
1977 International Senior Free Dance, American Sr Dance Final, Joanne Young - Sr Ladies Champion
To access all National placements in all Divisions between 1960-1991 go to: http://www.susan-a-miller.com/skate/placements.html
youtu.be
Well, I found an example although this girl starts on a deep inside edge and then flattens it out before jumping. Better skaters maintain the inside edge:
Thanks!This toe walley is a little better entrance than the other one I posted. This one's a triple:
1977 International Senior Free Dance, American Sr Dance Final, Joanne Young - Sr Ladies Champion
To access all National placements in all Divisions between 1960-1991 go to: http://www.susan-a-miller.com/skate/placements.html
bardtoob
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Typically the answer to this type of question is that the skating community probably knew who did it first but the ISU does not call it that because it was not done at an ISU Championship by that person.
Janet also does walley jumps in both directions later in this program. I know someone who used to skate with Janet. She said Janet regularly did a sequence of them all the way down the rink to warm up.
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