toe walley vs. toe loop; walleys

[bardtoob]

Her wikipedia entry claims SHE invented the one-foot axel, so does that mean the google book is wrong? It's by John Misha Petkevich, but the source in wikipedia for Colledge also has a credited publication...

It's hard to know. Denise Beillman is credited with her namesake spin. However, this footage exists.

Tamara Moskvina performs Biellmann Spin 1965 European Championships

Tamara Moskvina / Tamara Bratus / Тамара Москвина / Тамара Братусь / タマラ・モスクビナ1965 European Figure Skating Championships, MoscowЧемпионат Европы по фигурному...

youtu.be

And really, who is going to take anything away from Tamara Moskvina now. On the other hand, she only performed it in exhibition while Denise performed it in ISU competition.

 

[delayedaxel]

As far a s I know, Swiss skater Nathalie Krieg invented the "Biellmann". It bears Biellmann's name, because she made it popular and it was her trademark element.

 

[bardtoob]

As far a s I know, Swiss skater Nathalie Krieg invented the "Biellmann". It bears Biellmann's name, because she made it popular and it was her trademark element.

I think Denise was already doing the spin the year Nathalie was born.

 

[gkelly]

A German poster on Golden Skate posted that they "learnd a jump called Oppacher, like an Axel jumped off the forward inner edge (right foot while turning left way round)."

So that's what we call an "inside axel" in English. Since it is a completely different jump, it would be nice for it to have its own name.

 

[On My Own]

So that's what we call an "inside axel" in English. Since it is a completely different jump, it would be nice for it to have its own name.

The Oppa jump.

 

[delayedaxel]

A German poster on Golden Skate posted that they "learnd a jump called Oppacher, like an Axel jumped off the forward inner edge (right foot while turning left way round)."

So that's what we call an "inside axel" in English. Since it is a completely different jump, it would be nice for it to have its own name.

Now I am getting confused... if I translate "inside axel" into German that's "Einwärtsaxel", referring to "einwärts" as the landing edge. But what we, literally, call "Einwärtsaxel" in German is a one-foot-axel in English, probably due to the fact that takeoff and landing foot is the same.

As for the Oppacher: If I am already being on a (right) inside edge, it seems extremly weird to me to jump left way round while skating forward in the oppsite direction. Maybe the Oppacher is just too quirky to have been permanently established as a standard jump in fugure skating.

 

[vu2019]

As for the Oppacher: If I am already being on a (right) inside edge, it seems extremly weird to me to jump left way round while skating forward in the oppsite direction. Maybe the Oppacher is just too quirky to have been permanently established as a standard jump in fugure skating.

This cool jump sequence (under the "old" definition of jump sequence) posted in the other discussion thread has one-foot axel, (half flip), inside axel (what you describe above as an Oppacher, although I hadn't ever heard that term in English), and regular (double) axel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o46ydoSgpoo#t=3m45s

If you look at the third jump, she takes off a right forward inside edge and rotates 1.5 times to the left (counterclockwise) and lands on the right foot.

 

[On My Own]

This cool jump sequence (under the "old" definition of jump sequence) posted in the other discussion thread has one-foot axel, (half flip), inside axel (what you describe above as an Oppacher, although I hadn't ever heard that term in English), and regular (double) axel. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o46ydoSgpoo#t=3m45s

That's indeed an inside axel - I hadn't watched Czako's video when tony posted, huh. https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-to-figure-skating.110667/page-6#post-6428108

Did watch Nancy's though, that's definitely a beautiful walley, which is what I'd said I'd never watched at the time. Although I probably did watch that LP from Nancy at some point...

 

[delayedaxel]

Wow, thank you! This is the first time I already saw this rare jump, wow!

Looks like an axel jumped backward for me.

 

[On My Own]

NEW VLOG || INSIDE AXELâ¸FigureSkating

@bonbonskatingbydianamovcha4320 Hi, everyone! Welcome to BonBon skating online academy. Every week I post a new video , where I’m sharing my professional kno...

www.youtube.com

 

[On My Own]

I feel like I saw some demonstrations before, on GS? IDR. I'm sure @gkelly will find 50 of them

 

[gkelly]

Another inside axel (English meaning of the term -- forward inside takeoff edge) in competition.

Walleys and inside axels are edge jumps that are completely separate from any of the six commonly performed multirevolution jumps that are listed in the IJS Scale of Values.

They were never common, and even less common once triple jumps (and then quads) became the name of the game.

So they are allowed under IJS as transition jumps -- "nonlisted jumps." They don't earn any points.

It is, evidently, extremely difficult to get a second revolution off the forward inside edge (inside axel), or the back inside edge with counterrotation (walley).

I posted the only video example I know of for double walley in post #13 of this thread.

Here are the only two skaters I've seen video of attempting double inside axel:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvOiRHjEsEg&3m20s (she included them in several of her programs that are available online)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hycLqBXQK8s&t=2m46s (his only attempt in competition AFAIK)

 

[delayedaxel]

At least we know now what we are talking about!

German English

Oppacher inside axel
Einwärtsaxel one-foot-axel

 

[Seerek]

Speaking of Czako, Krisztina's father Gyorgy apparently developed a variation of the walley (distinctive to that of another variation of the walley called the Robertson).

(taken from an interview w/Ryan on his blog). Gyorgy passed away this past February at the age of 89.

A Hungarian Hero: The György Czakó Story

History of figure skating. A figure skating history blog covering Olympic figure skaters and the World Figure Skating Championships.

skateguard1.blogspot.com

 

[Coco]

It would be a loop with the free foot behind.

Or if it were a listed jump called by the tech panel, it could be called as walley with an e or ! call.

Now I'm super confused...why isn't a walley off the wrong edge, so off the inside edge, a Salchow and not a loop?

 

[On My Own]

Now I'm super confused...why isn't a walley off the wrong edge, so off the inside edge, a Salchow and not a loop?

Because for a counter-clockwise rotator, it would mean the person took off a RBI edge and rotate CCW after vaulting, and land on the RBO edge. A salchow would take off LBI edge rotate CCW and land RBO... A loop takes off RBO, lands RBO.

 

[gkelly]

Now I'm super confused...why isn't a walley off the wrong edge, so off the inside edge, a Salchow and not a loop?

Because it's counterrotated.

The CORRECT edge for a walley to take off from is the back INSIDE edge. Watch the examples of walleys posted earlier in this thread.

For a walley jump that rotates counterclockwise, the skater takes off from a right back inside edge and lands, as usual, on the right back outside. The takeoff edge curved in the opposite direction from the in-air rotation and the landing, which is what makes it a counterrotated jump.

If a walley took off from the "wrong" edge, it would be taking off from the right back outside, and landing on the same right back outside -- which is the definition of a (counterclockwise) loop jump.

Walleys and loops take off from the same foot that they land on.

Salchows take off from the opposite foot from the landing foot, which requires a weight change in the air from over the left foot to over the right (for a counterclockwise jump).

(Toeless lutz, which doen't seem to have ever been captured on video, would also take off from the left foot and land on the right.)

Of course this all gets more complicated when you consider that some skaters do all their jumps clockwise rather than counterclockwise, some skaters do single walleys in the opposite direction from their normal jump direction (e.g., the Lysacek example I posted earlier in this thread), and some skaters land walleys on the back inside edge of the "wrong" foot in the same way that Eulers and one-foot axels land, for purposes of linking more directly to a listed jump or to other steps and hops in a sequence of transitions/choreographic sequence.

(I once saw a CCW junior lady trying to teach a walley to a CW-jumping friend at the same level. There was much confusion and one-foot salchows being executed by mistake.)

But let's not even go there before understanding the definition and mechanics of the pure basic walley jump.

Ignoring all those variations and just focusing on the pure CCW walley, the correct takeoff edge is RBI, which curves CW. The skater changes the direction of rotation as they leave the ice, and then the in-air rotation and the landing edge will be CCW.

 

[On My Own]

(Toeless lutz, which doen't seem to have ever been captured on video, would also take off from the left foot and land on the right.)

Have you ever seen one? Because it seems like a lie to me at this point.

 

[gkelly]

Have you ever seen one? Because it seems like a lie to me at this point.

I've never seen one.

I think it was probably done very rarely in an era when television coverage of figure skating was even rarer, and perhaps not since. Or if so, not by skaters who were getting their performances televised.

 

[delayedaxel]

Wouldn't a toeless lutz be anything different than a Walley taken off from the wrong edge?

 

[On My Own]

Wouldn't a toeless lutz be anything different than a Walley taken off from the wrong edge?

It's taken off the LBO without a toe pick. LBO take off, CCW rotation, RBO landing.

I wonder if toeless flutz exists? It'd just look like a salchow with the free leg behind the skating leg. (eta: and without the turn in front, of course)

 

[gkelly]

Here's a triple salchow from a back inside-to-outside edge change.

So as a joke we could call it a toeless flutz, or slutz.

Imagine if a skater could jump from the back outside edge and change rotation on the takeoff without picking. That would be a toeless lutz.

If it was done in the 1950s, 60s, 70s, it would have been done as a single jump.

I don't know what position of the free leg would be most advantageous for achieving even the single rotation.

Elite skaters in those eras would have been concentrating on doubles and then triples, which were more and more rewarded compared to creative singles. So whoever was doing them might have been skaters less likely to have their efforts preserved on film/videotape.

Here's an 1976 article about judge training that mentions toeless lutz:

Judging the Judges (Published 1976)

www.nytimes.com

 

[gkelly]

(toeless lutz)

OK, I found one, but it would probably merit at least a ! call by IJS standards:

Queen Of The Ice (1948)

Full title reads: "QUEEN OF THE ICE".Wembley, London. Jeannette Altwegg and Miss B. Wyatt putting on skating boots during British Amateur Skating Championshi...

www.youtube.com

 

[On My Own]

OK, I found one, but it would probably merit at least a ! call by IJS standards:

Queen Of The Ice (1948)

Full title reads: "QUEEN OF THE ICE".Wembley, London. Jeannette Altwegg and Miss B. Wyatt putting on skating boots during British Amateur Skating Championshi...

www.youtube.com

Oh, it looks exactly like a lutz except without toe pick?! Just a lot swingier with her limbs.

 

[Coco]

Thanks, @gkelly the toeless Lutz comment threw me because I thought it was a jump off the left backwards outside edge landing on the right backwards outside edge or the left backwards inside edge. So rotating in that direction, being on the wrong edge would make it a Salchow. But if it's already taking off the inside edge and landing on the same foot on the right back outside edge then yes I can see how it would be a loop if it took off on the wrong edge.

 

[gkelly]

Thanks, @gkelly the toeless Lutz comment threw me because I thought it was a jump off the left backwards outside edge landing on the right backwards outside edge

That would be a toeless lutz

So rotating in that direction, being on the wrong edge would make it a Salchow.

Right, that's what would happen to a toeless lutz that took off the wrong edge.

But if it's already taking off the inside edge and landing on the same foot on the right back outside edge then yes I can see how it would be a loop if it took off on the wrong edge.

Yes, that is true for a walley, as we were originally discussing.

 

[viennese]

I love this thread! And I salute all of you who've found the clips that illustrate all these seldom seen moves.

I remember learning toe walleys as well as toe loops.

When Elaine Zayak won her 1982 World Championship skate, wasn't she doing two triple toe loops, two triple toe walleys, a couple of triple salchows, and a triple loop or two? (With doubles added on in combinations).

 

[vu2019]

Wow, thank you! This is the first time I already saw this rare jump, wow!

Looks like an axel jumped backward for me.

That actually reminded me of another cool jump I had heard of and totally forgotten about that I had only heard referred to as a "baxel" (and I think you'll understand why!). Googling it, someone on Reddit called it or attributed it to "Wrede" and another source (whose direct article link doesn't work anymore) attributed its invention to Nick Perna (ETA, so does the comment on this video). Interestingly, the term "baxel" had never been used at FSU before.

Figure Skating Baxel Jump

Axel followed by Baxel Skater: Mary LiebFilmed by: Tian Wang at Fairfax Ice ArenaSpecial thanks to Nick Perna for inventing the jump

youtu.be

Then there's a half axel or bell jump that takes off like an axel and rotates one revolution (landing forwards), but almost never lands on one foot and stays on that foot... unless you're Gary Beacom:

Gary Beacom 1988 World Cup of Figure Skating Ottawa

Gary Beacom pro comp 1988 World Cup of Figure Skating in Ottawa Canada

youtu.be

 

[bardtoob]

When Elaine Zayak won her 1982 World Championship skate, wasn't she doing two triple toe loops, two triple toe walleys, a couple of triple salchows, and a triple loop or two? (With doubles added on in combinations).

Basically, I agree.

Elaine Zayak - 1982 Worlds LP(UKTV)

Elaine's winning LP from Copenhagen in 1982. 4th in figures, 10th in SP after a fall she rebounded to win from 7th after this LP.

www.youtube.com

For the 1982 Worlds freeskate I counted:

1 solo 3T
1 solo 3TW
2 solo 3Sal
1 2Lz-3T
1 split jump-3T

It is possible that she did two solo 3TW because the entrance would have allowed for it but I think one was an outside edge and the other was an inside edge.

She did a double loop at this competition, although she was capable and did perform 3Lp during the 1984 Olympic season.

 

[Coco]

More 2z3t combos!!!