What do people here think of Jill Trenary

[overedge]

I disagree. I've read some thoughtful comments about Jill that praise her good qualities, and I rewatched a few programs with a new lens that made me better appreciate what she put out.

I was referring to the posts from the poster who started the thread. The general discussion has been much more positive.

 

[mtnskater]

Big Jill Trenary fan here. I loved her beautiful style on the ice. Her presentation was lovely. Very much a fan! I too remember her “Boots” pro number as well as the “Pachelbel Canon in D“ number. She was a great performer and had lovely skating skills. Oksana Baiul said Jill was her favorite skater.

 

[Ffc]

Rewatching some of her old programs and of all the skaters who were champions or right at the top for years she is the one that baffles me most of anyone ever perhaps. She was a good enough skater for the time I guess, but I just didn't get her skating at all. Her look, or really anything. And super inconsistent as well.

Just curious if there are any fans of hers here, and what was her appeal to the judges and audiences alike.

Skating was seen a little different then. You had athletic skaters like Harding and Thomas and then you had stylist like Witt and Trenary. I preferred to watch the later.

Jill was inconsistent and suffered from nerves -but she had style. At that time, she had many fans. Mostly because she had a feminine quality and approachable good looks. Baul once said Jill was her role model, - as Jill skated like a womAn. Even Madori Itto admired Jill’s artistry.

Once Witt retired, Jill represented a style of skating based on artistry. But while Katarina had nerves of steel, Jill could stumble out of leads.

She kept it all together, however, in 1990.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

Skating was seen a little different then. You had athletic skaters like Harding and Thomas and then you had stylist like Witt and Trenary. I preferred to watch the later.

Jill was inconsistent and suffered from nerves -but she had style. At that time, she had many fans. Mostly because she had a feminine quality and approachable good looks. Baul once said Jill was her role model, - as Jill skated like a womAn. Even Madori Itto admired Jill’s artistry.

Once Witt retired, Jill represented a style of skating based on artistry. But while Katarina had nerves of steel, Jill could stumble out of leads.

She kept it all together, however, in 1990.

Good assessment. Witt was the ultimate competitor with such an incredible presence on the ice though, with such charisma, and she just looked like a winner. She was neither the best technician or even the best stylist as far as free leg extensions or polish, but she had the it factor, and she came out like a winner in competition. Trenary was an elegant and polished skater, but she did not come across like a confident winner or come out like "look at me, I am the best, I have to be the champion" the way Witt did, even when she skated fairly well.

 

[Ffc]

Rewatching some of her old programs and of all the skaters who were champions or right at the top for years she is the one that baffles me most of anyone ever perhaps. She was a good enough skater for the time I guess, but I just didn't get her skating at all. Her look, or really anything. And super inconsistent as well.

Just curious if there are any fans of hers here, and what was her appeal to the judges and audiences alike.

She was a very good artistic skater, lovely to watch but struggled with jumps - much more so than Katarina who was also an artistic skater.

For a couple of years only Jill contended for the world titles. She did win in 1990 with just barely enough jumps at that time and held off more athletic skaters like Kristi and Madori. She had an all American appeal like the girl next door and was a very popular skater. I would say she was the most popular American skater for a little while.

With the elimination of compulsory figures, all the girls stating jumping more, and the sport passed her by really quickly. She retired at the end of 1991, literally a few months and an injury after her world title.

 

[Ffc]

Skating was seen a little different then. You had athletic skaters like Harding and Thomas and then you had stylist like Witt and Trenary. I preferred to watch the later.

Jill was inconsistent and suffered from nerves -but she had style. At that time, she had many fans. Mostly because she had a feminine quality and approachable good looks. Baul once said Jill was her role model, - as Jill skated like a womAn. Even Madori Itto admired Jill’s artistry.

Once Witt retired, Jill represented a style of skating based on artistry. But while Katarina had nerves of steel, Jill could stumble out of leads.

She kept it all together, however, in 1990.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

I wonder if she didn't get injured if she could have been a contender for the bronze medal in Albertville? Taking advantage of Harding's plunge, and Kerrigan's typical great short program/messed up long program pairing. If she could have taken 2nd in the short and 3rd in the long in Albertville she could have even taken silver over Ito, as crazy as that sounds, due to Ito's now 5th place in the short, but I don't think even with her best ever short she could have beaten Nancy's excellent short program for 2nd in the short in Albertville (not unless she somehow did a triple lutz combo which was never happening) so that is moot.

 

[Bouffantrex]

Jill remains underrated to this day. Glamorous, sophisticated, wonderful overall polish--and she had the skating skills to back it up.

She had a distinctive look, that's for sure. I don't know any skater before or after who styled themselves the way she styled herself. It wasn't bad or anything. It was very...Big Woman in the suburb mall - in the Midwest/Great Lakes area or near it. I could see her being a recurring character on Designing Women or a guest character in Roseanne.

But we looked like that in 1989, at least those of us that chose to be fashionable. I could definitely see Jill making a Designing Women appearance, but she had far too much class and glitz for Roseanne.

 

[olympic]

I wonder if she didn't get injured if she could have been a contender for the bronze medal in Albertville? Taking advantage of Harding's plunge, and Kerrigan's typical great short program/messed up long program pairing. If she could have taken 2nd in the short and 3rd in the long in Albertville she could have even taken silver over Ito, as crazy as that sounds, due to Ito's now 5th place in the short, but I don't think even with her best ever short she could have beaten Nancy's excellent short program for 2nd in the short in Albertville (not unless she somehow did a triple lutz combo which was never happening) so that is moot.

This has been debated greatly in the past.

I think the consensus is that as ‘90 World Champ, Trenary could have threaded a needle at ‘91 Nationals: A clean skate vs. the hit-and-miss skates of Kerrigan would probably have punched her ticket to Munich. The problem was that even healthy, I don’t think Trenary was really ever clean. She would’ve needed a 3F-2T in the SP and the 5 triples in the LP. Nancy, Tonya and Kristi were all doing 3Z, so she would’ve had to scrap in 1991, but there was a possibility. In 1992, she would’ve had to beat Harding at nationals. I think where the judges would’ve placed her would’ve depended on a theoretical trip to ‘91 Worlds and a very good placement there. IOW, despite her world championship, she would’ve needed to be perfect against less perfect skates from Kerrigan and Harding. The content just wasn’t quite there. Ito, Harding and Yamaguchi took it to the next level in just a couple of years

 

[Frau Muller]

Jill remains underrated to this day. Glamorous, sophisticated, wonderful overall polish--and she had the skating skills to back it up.


But we looked like that in 1989, at least those of us that chose to be fashionable. I could definitely see Jill making a Designing Women appearance, but she had far too much class and glitz for Roseanne.

ITA. To me, Jill seemed to style herself as lil’ sister of her coach Christa Fassi. GB’s champion, Joanne Conway, tried really hard to duplicate the Jill/Christa look…but not quite. That aquanet spray must’ve been in heavy use at the Broadmoor, LOL!

 

[Jonas]

This has been debated greatly in the past.

I think the consensus is that as ‘90 World Champ, Trenary could have threaded a needle at ‘91 Nationals: A clean skate vs. the hit-and-miss skates of Kerrigan would probably have punched her ticket to Munich. The problem was that even healthy, I don’t think Trenary was really ever clean. She would’ve needed a 3F-2T in the SP and the 5 triples in the LP. Nancy, Tonya and Kristi were all doing 3Z, so she would’ve had to scrap in 1991, but there was a possibility. In 1992, she would’ve had to beat Harding at nationals. I think where the judges would’ve placed her would’ve depended on a theoretical trip to ‘91 Worlds and a very good placement there. IOW, despite her world championship, she would’ve needed to be perfect against less perfect skates from Kerrigan and Harding. The content just wasn’t quite there. Ito, Harding and Yamaguchi took it to the next level in just a couple of years

All other things constant, I think that a clean, reigning World Champion Jill Trenary would've beaten Nancy Kerrigan at the '91 US Nationals. Nancy did 2toe-3toe as her SP combo then (Jill, IIRC, was doing 3toe-2toe). I'd say if Jill repeated her '90 US Nationals FS (the closest to 5 clean triples I've seen from her), she would've punched the ticket to Munich. Jill likely would've joined the US sweep at the '91 Worlds w/a similar clean skate -- and, alas, been a favorite for the '92 US Olympic Team. I'm not so sure though if Jill could've managed to medal had she made it to Albertville.

 

[bardtoob]

The only way I could see Trenary being competitive after 1990 was if the SP increased in value and the LP results were weighted (including tiebreakers, etc.) to favor presentation.

That being said, I think figures should have been 10-15% of the competition through the 1992 Olympics, then eliminated.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Jonas wrote what I was going to write re: 1991 Nationals and Worlds. Kerrigan's short program combo was 2T+3T, plus she only had four triples and falls in both programs. (Nationals: 2A fall, 2F step out, 2T+3T, 3S, 3Lz, 2A, 3T; Worlds: 2A, 3F, 3T+3T, 2S fall, 3Lz eked out, 2A, 2S). Jill could match the Nationals content jump for jump, swapping out lutz for flip. I agree that a clean short (even with 3T or 3S) plus repetition of her 1990 Nationals or Worlds program would've been enough for the bronze in Munich, given how poorly Ito skated.

Albertville was such a mess that Jill might've medalled with clean-ish skates. I don't think she'd have been worse than fourth in the short program (and could've been third) with a clean program that had ANY combination. For my money, she'd have been third with 3F+2T, as she did at Sectionals, and not worse than fourth even if she did 3S+2T as she had done earlier in the season.

Kerrigan's free skate was weak, with only four clean triples and nothing harder than 3F, plus three big, messy errors. Her completed clean triples were 3F, Lo, 3S, and 3T with no real combinations (just the huge pop on the end of the 3T). For me, a 4-1/2 triple Jill with only one minor error, e.g., 1990 Nationals or Worlds style performance, would've gone ahead.

So in a best hypothetical, I could see:
Yamaguchi 1-1, 1.5
Ito 5-2, 4.5
Trenary 3-3, 4.5 (or 4 3, 5.0)
Kerrigan 2-4, 5.0

Another interesting hypothetical would be a clean short program but a weak free skate. In that case, Kerrigan might've ended up with silver ahead of Ito.
Yamaguchi 1-1, 1.5
Kerrigan 2-3, 4.0
Ito 5-2, 4.5
Trenary 3-4, 5.5 (or 4-4, 6.0)

 

[Deleted member 221]

The only way I could see Trenary being competitive after 1990 was if the SP increased in value and the LP results were weighted (including tiebreakers, etc.) to favor presentation.

I'm not so sure. It's true that the ATTEMPTED content went up considerably, but competitions were consistently quite messy until 1993 Worlds, when I think we had a real and permanent changing of the guard. I know Katarina Witt said she came back to make a statement. I don't believe it. I think she watched 1992 Olympics and Worlds and thought she'd be able to medal or even win the Olympics with a triple loop (assuming no Yamaguchi or Ito). By the time of 1993 Worlds, she had already announced her comeback, and I think she had to change the story. I believe Trenary also at least toyed with the idea of reinstating, but waited longer and officially decided not to after 1993 Worlds, between losing a spot and also seeing the level of technical content.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

It is intersting how you had a skater like Karen Preston who consistently did all the triples at the 92 Olympics and 92 worlds and yet was at the bottom of the top 10 both times, while people like Kerrigan were falling all over the place and medaling. So there were women besides Ito and Yamaguchi doing technical content that Witt (or Trenary) could only dream of, but they were only skaters like Preston that nobody, including the judges, cared about.

 

[Coco]

I think if you weren't promoted as your country's #1, it was hard to get good marks.

 

[Bouffantrex]

It is intersting how you had a skater like Karen Preston who consistently did all the triples at the 92 Olympics and 92 worlds and yet was at the bottom of the top 10 both times

Karen landed four clean triples in the long program at Oakland Worlds, and several were shaky. And the program was pedestrian. Even sloppy and excessively casual Hubert was a more compelling watch.

So there were women besides Ito and Yamaguchi doing technical content that Witt (or Trenary) could only dream of, but they were only skaters like Preston that nobody, including the judges, cared about.

Sadly, Karen didn't give the judges much reason to care about her skating. Presentation and packaging were more important back then, and she always looked particularly bland next to Chouinard, despite Josee's frustrating inconsistency and predictable meltdowns.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

I think if you weren't promoted as your country's #1, it was hard to get good marks.

Well unless you were American as they have such depth. eg Kristi winning worlds right after losing her own Nationals, Kerrigan winning a world bronze as the US #4, Kadavy winning a world bronze and nearly a silver behind the non American winner as US #3, Hughes winning Olympic Gold as US #3, Zayak winning her worlds as only American #2 or #3, etc.... Any other country besides say the Russians now and the Japanese in the mid 2000s, that for sure applies.

 

[Fadeevfanboy]

Karen landed four clean triples in the long program at Oakland Worlds, and several were shaky. And the program was pedestrian. Even sloppy and excessively casual Hubert was a more compelling watch.

True but at the Olympics she did a clean program with 6 triples, all the triples including a lutz and flip, on a night of only splatfests. Yet her technical merit marks (not talking about the presentation marks) were still much lower than say Yuka Sato who only did only a triple loop, and three triple toes or triple salchows for her 4 triples. I agree with everything you said about Karen's skating though.

Still she was one of the only women skating cleanly often and doing this much harder content someone like Witt or Trenary didn't do but was still down the rankings. Kiellmann would be another who falls into that category. So there were a few people doing that, but they were only the ones who were just seen as non elite. All the elite (aka real contenders) besides Yamaguchi and Ito were all failing to produce it until 93.

 

[Seerek]

ITA. To me, Jill seemed to style herself as lil’ sister of her coach Christa Fassi. GB’s champion, Joanne Conway, tried really hard to duplicate the Jill/Christa look…but not quite. That aquanet spray must’ve been in heavy use at the Broadmoor, LOL!

In an early episode of the Manleywoman podcast, Alison and Fassi's other student at the time Caryn Kadavy had a laughing fit over Aquanet - it was a really funny part of the episode.

 

[Ffc]

The same thing is true today.

First, she was very attractive in wholesome kind of way. She had the look of your favorite high school cheerleader.

Her jumps were good - but others were more reliable and athletic. What she had was style and maturity which the others in 1990 lacked.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

To me, Trenary represents the bridge between the super model era of ladies' skating and the more gymnastic one.

Especially, as compulsory figures were eliminated from scored competition immediately after her win in 1990.

It's no accident that skaters who were more adept at jumping shot to the top of the pile the following year.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

in that Nikodinov way

How very dare you

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I thought Jill was a good skater. She was like the Brooke shields Jordache advertisement genre for the figure skating community at that time. Very stylish and a bit of a trendsetter but at the same time very mature and polished

 

[zigzig]

She looked great on the ice and perfectly epitomized the beauty ideals of that area - other than that I found her skating stiff as a board, her choreography laughable and all the praise over her style based purely on the merit of SWP.

I thought she actually had a nice natural spring to her jumps and could have mastered a more advanced technical arsenal if she had a deeper knee bend.

 

[olympic]

Jill is the one 80s US lady who has not been interviewed by TSL AFAIK. I think they interviewed all the top US ladies of the 80s: I recall Linda, Lisa Marie, Roz, Elaine, Tiffany, Debi, Caryn and Kristi (career began in the 80s) all being interviewed at some point.

 

[olympic]

She looked great on the ice and perfectly epitomized the beauty ideals of that area - other than that I found her skating stiff as a board, her choreography laughable and all the praise over her style based purely on the merit of SWP.

I thought she actually had a nice natural spring to her jumps and could have mastered a more advanced technical arsenal if she had a deeper knee bend.

She reminded me of an American version of Butyrskaya in that sense: Pretty and stiff. LOL. But, I thought her choreography was decent for what was acceptable in the late 80s.

 

[zigzig]

She reminded me of an American version of Butyrskaya in that sense: Pretty and stiff. LOL. But, I thought her choreography was decent for what was acceptable in the late 80s.

Yeah - guess I’m not being fair. Her choreo matched the times so I guess it was fine when viewed under a historical lens (which make good timeless choreography from that era doubly impressive).

 

[orbitz]

I would never describe Jill's skating as stiff. She was a fluid performer, but I think her on-ice style was too rehearsed, too beauty pageant-y. Her style during her amateur days hasn't aged well, IMO.

The best showcase for Jill's skating was in these two programs that her ex-husband Chris Dean choreographed for her for 1996 Ice Wars:

These Boots
Canon

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

This thread is inspiring me to create an Angela Nikodinov thread where we only praise her and talk about how much of a goddess she is