The Dance Hall 9: Bring the Bling or No Beijing 2021-2022

[Bigbird]

115 for Nepo couple Davis (Mini Tut) /Smolkin (actor son) for a senior debut.

Tiffany / Dzhon ain't getting that ticket to Beijing.

In all fairness, Tiffany and Jon have been struggling with illness and injuries for a while. But in their favour they must have a FD that is better than warhorse Moulin Rouge that Davis cannot relate to at all. I prefer the D/S RD by a country mile though to Z/Gs. So it's anyone's ticket so to say.

 

[VGThuy]

After watching Green/Parsons FD, I’m going to go out on a limb and say Michael Parsons has the potential to be the best male ice dancer in the world in the next four years. He has everything I think a male ice dancer should have (super core strength but great flexibility and extension/line, excellent glide and speed, sensitivity to the music, and real patience with partnering). Sure he might be a bit short but he’s not super short and I think his height is actually ideal for his body type for ice dancing.

 

[love_skate2011]

Parson is short, so he has a deficit , just like Jean Luc Baker has not achieved it.
Short men are very frustrating and the reason for an Ice Dance couple not able to achieve their potential and cause of break ups.

.

 

[justtojoke]

I wish H/D had gone with "Janet." era music, because everyone dances to "Nasty" and "Rhythm Nation." H/D could do really well with songs like "That's the Way Love Goes" and "If." "Rope Burn" requires a kind of sensuality that I don't think H/D have (as a couple), tbh.

The cut to "Rhythm Nation" isn't used in H/Ds benefit imo. The music build up is perfect for the twizzles but it goes right into "We are a part of the Rhythm nation" it would have been nice to have a little nod to the original choreo there. In an Olympic year where ice dance has a larger audience little things like that go a long way.

As usual H/D have chosen a polarizing musical cut. You have to admire their confidence. (and consistency )

 

[VGThuy]

Parson is short, so he has a deficit , just like Jean Luc Baker has not achieved it.
Short men are very frustrating and the reason for an Ice Dance couple not able to achieve their potential and cause of break ups.

.

All ice dancers have some sort of deficit. Height can be a major detriment, but it's not something that can't be overcome with things fall into one's favor, like with so many partnerships. Parsons being an inch and a half shorter than Charlie White can hurt but I don't think that in of itself will determine whether he'll be successful. A lot of things have to work out for a partnership to work. Even ideal sized partners haven't achieved their potential and faced break ups and never recovered from them. A lot of teams achieved success over more ideal teams due many other factors as well. Not to mention only focusing on height but ignoring other physical attributes is a very narrow way of analyzing a partner if we were to only look at physicality. Looking at Parsons, his height hasn't prevented him from having great partnering skills, achieving high levels on footwork, or from performing excellent lifts with excellent positions.

 

[thvu]

So, what do we all think about the risk Hubbel & Donohue are taking on the first part of their combination lift in the FD?

Here’s a GIF

HD 2021 Lift2.gif

drive.google.com

Many of us commenting in Kiss & Cry thought it would be considered illegal. @NinjaTurtles posted the illegal element rules. This is the relevant bit:

f) point of contact of the lifting hand(s)/arm(s) of the lifting partner with any part of the body of the lifted partner is sustained with the fully extended arm(s) higher than the lifting partner’s head (the supporting arm may be sustained and fully extended above the head);​

So, rules as written, it’s an allowable lift. I was thinking because the position is never really “sustained” and Donohue’s arms are bent, it’s fine. @Debbie S emphasized the lack of fully extended arms is enough for this rule not to apply. The wait for the scores was long. The panel definitely busted out the rulebook and had an extended discussion on the lift. @Barbara Manatee mused that this alone is an “enormous red flag.”

The potential point loss from an unfriendly tech panel is large. 2 point deduction for an illegal element. The lift becomes base level, a 4.3 point loss. Loss of 1.46 points in potential GOE.

 

[tony]

Someone is going to nail them for it, better to just get creative in other ways, as cool as it looks. What if the angle isn’t great and his arms look fully stretched? What if he does stretch them? Just too pointless to go through the likely debate every time.

 

[dancing_on_ice]

I agree that H/D should modify the lift. They didn't get nailed today, but a stricter/less favorable tech panel could easily choose to call it an illegal element. I feel like they won't change it since in an interview afterward, they said that they had been working fifteen months on making that lift work, and it wasn't called today. IMO, it would've been better for their season progression if it had been deemed illegal as a wake up call to change it. Better to get called now, they modify it, than for it to be called at GP Final, US Nationals, or heaven forbid, the Olympics, and they lose out to G/P or C/B at a crucial juncture in the season.

 

[Cherub721]

I don't understand how a lift like that could pass muster at Champs Camp or what the point is of Champs Camp then. So maybe it was brought up already and they feel really strongly about it and won't change it unless they actually get called for an illegal element. It's interesting because while I like their music choices, they certainly didn't take any risks there.

 

[Dobre]

I would never count on a team from another country moving up the ranks because Russian teams are retiring. (Nor am I counting on Russian teams--plural--retiring). In my experience, when one Russian team retires, another miraculously starts scoring much higher than previously and on you go. The irony, in this case, of course, is that exactly the same thing happened when Coomes & Buckland retired. In fact, it happened on a small scale the year Coomes & Buckland were injured, then unhappened the year they came back, and then rehappened on a much larger scale the following year.

None of this is to say that I don't expect Fear & Gibson to make a European podium. Only that I don't expect climbing onto the European podium to be as simple a thing as having the top Russians & French retire.


Note: Call me naive, but I think family political connections are only so helpful. Russia will want to send teams that are podium competitive to the big events. Someone has to bring in the hardware & earn the berths for these other teams to be able to go places.

 

[Debbie S]

@Debbie S emphasized the lack of fully extended arms is enough for this rule not to apply.

Well, I was thinking out loud and wondering about the judges' reasoning. Looking at the GIF, it does look like Zach's arms straighten as he's pulling Madi overhead. It's admittedly hard to see through Madi's skirt waving.

I get that they're trying to address the criticism of their lifts but there are plenty of lift positions and movements that other teams are doing that aren't skirting the rules, so I don't know why they would come up with something like this. Maybe the goal is to get people talking, but convo about whether you are breaking the rules isn't really talk you should want people to have, IMO.

 

[Gris]

As I said in the PBP thread, you'd think the last thing they want is a StaLiB 2.0 situation... Better to change it now than get called in a critical competition. It's a shame though, since the lift is the best part of that FD.

 

[Bigbird]

As usual my favorite FD of the moment has or could potentially have grave technical issues. Its just so hard to be anything in dance but vanilla.

 

[aka_gerbil]

It’s a cool element, but I’m guessing they’ll change it by SA.

They may have wanted to try it in competition and see what the judges said.

 

[mjb52]

Going through some dance stuff now. You can say I am biased or whatever but I thought Sin/Kats' program (I've only seen the free so far, gonna watch the RD's tomorrow) from Russian Test Skates looked really promising. It's the first time I felt like their team truly got the rhythm change perfectly from the beginning instead of having to make it work over the course of the season. I like the fast part a lot, whereas that has been the part of their other programs this quad that took more time to grow on me. Of course it's not perfect yet, but I think it's a solid foundation.

Jon and Tiff's RD (I'm watching the free from test skates but that's what they are doing) is really fun. It will stand out among the others.

I wasn't totally sold on Morozov/Bagin or Khuda/Bazin but it's just test skates. I loved Khuda's Sign of the Times program so it set a super high bar for me.

Miss Svinin/Zhuk's teams! Hope Stepanova/Bukin and all the others are feeling better now and excited to see their programs.

Are Ushakova/Nekrasov seniors this year? I was won over by them last year.

re: H/D's lift, are we sure it's risky or are we just worrying it's risky. It's a super element, if they can save it I think that it's worth doing, so long as they have consulted with the tech people at the ISU and know that it's legal.

 

[chantilly]

I can only say that regarding H and D lift is the word “ Sustained”

I don’t think it is, thus falls under the rules

But I’m guessing it’s going to be a controversial point.

However it reminds me of the controversy over V and M’s goose lift in 2010 which they ended up modifying for worse or better depending on the opinion of the day,,

 

[Bigbird]

I can only say that regarding H and D lift is the word “ Sustained”

I don’t think it is, thus falls under the rules

But I’m guessing it’s going to be a controversial point.

However it reminds me of the controversy over V and M’s goose lift in 2010 which they ended up modifying for worse or better depending on the opinion of the day,,

All they would have to do then is shorten the time in that position? Or just not fully extend the arms?

Didn't Kats hoist Sinitsina in the air in a sort of overhead cartwheel in one if their lifts? They weren't penalized because the position wasn't sustained, right?

The current version with her squirming around his shoulder to get into an arabesce position is it to avoid violating those types of rules?

I feel it for the dancers, the rules are just very restrictive.

 

[taz'smum]

In all fairness, Tiffany and Jon have been struggling with illness and injuries for a while. But in their favour they must have a FD that is better than warhorse Moulin Rouge that Davis cannot relate to at all. I prefer the D/S RD by a country mile though to Z/Gs. So it's anyone's ticket so to say.

You are correct, Jon is still struggling.
One step at at time, for now I just hope that they actually make it to competition, thoughts of Beijing are a long way off.

 

[Dobre]

Thoughts:

As far as the top teams are concerned . . .

I drifted off to thinking about something else in the middle of both Hubbell & Donohue's and Gilles & Poirier's FDs. I'm good with H/D's RD. It looked ready for this point in the season. The parts where they were off unison were noticeable because the rest was pretty sharp. The music choice is appropriate for the theme and much better than the 6-piece mashup from the last time H&D attempted this rhythm. I'm not an Elton John fan so I won't assess G&P's RD except to say that my feeling is I would probably like it better if I were an Elton John fan.

Free dances often take longer to develop & start to shine during the season, but at the moment I'm saying there's plenty of room for someone to make a stronger impression in the free dance.

I do like Guignard & Fabbri's Atonement, but I don't see it moving that far up the ranks since last season.

I haven't made it to watching Russian test skates yet.

Anyway, the FDs have a long way to go.


On to the important stuff . . .

We all know the big things that happened over the past two weekends were the following:

1. Green & Parsons defeated Lajoie & Lagha (in Canada, no less). That'll do it. Moves this G&P from the ranks of "new team" into the competitive next generation ranks of the international dance field where they want to be.

2. Taschlerova & Taschler won the battle of who-wants-a-stamp-in-their-passport-for-Beijing at Lombardia. So that shuffles the deck & puts the Czechs on firmer footing heading into Nebelhorn. The Russian Georgians, T&T, the top Finns, & the Canadian Armenians heading into Nebelhorn looking good, with a shot for the Australian/Canadian team & the American/Korean one.

Are Ushakova/Nekrasov seniors this year?

Yes.

 

[Bigbird]

Thoughts:

As far as the top teams are concerned . . .

I drifted off to thinking about something else in the middle of both Hubbell & Donohue's and Gilles & Poirier's FDs. I'm good with H/D's RD. It looked ready for this point in the season. The parts where they were off unison were noticeable because the rest was pretty sharp. The music choice is appropriate for the theme and much better than the 6-piece mashup from the last time H&D attempted this rhythm. I'm not an Elton John fan so I won't assess G&P's RD except to say that my feeling is I would probably like it better if I were an Elton John fan.

Free dances often take longer to develop & start to shine during the season, but at the moment I'm saying there's plenty of room for someone to make a stronger impression in the free dance.

I do like Guignard & Fabbri's Atonement, but I don't see it moving that far up the ranks since last season.

I haven't made it to watching Russian test skates yet.

Anyway, the FDs have a long way to go.


On to the important stuff . . .

We all know the big things that happened over the past two weekends were the following:

1. Green & Parsons defeated Lajoie & Lagha (in Canada, no less). That'll do it. Moves this G&P from the ranks of "new team" into the competitive next generation ranks of the international dance field where they want to be.

2. Taschlerova & Taschler won the battle of who-wants-a-stamp-in-their-passport-for-Beijing at Lombardia. So that shuffles the deck & puts the Czechs on firmer footing heading into Nebelhorn. The Russian Georgians, T&T, the top Finns, & the Canadian Armenians heading into Nebelhorn looking good, with a shot for the Australian/Canadian team & the American/Korean one.


Yes.

Deleted.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

Virtue and Moir were eventually dinged for Tessa’s half jump exit out of a lift in Mahler, no? That exit was far less skirting with the rules than Hubbell and Donohue’s lift!

I think a lot rides on the speed of the entry and how quickly Zach does the descent on his lifting of Madison…in slow mo I think it’s dangerously close to fully extended above the head for 3 seconds - enough for the (technical caller) human eye to flag as “sustained”.

https://imgur.com/W9jQXWE

 

[marbri]

Virtue and Moir were eventually dinged for Tessa’s half jump exit out of a lift in Mahler, no? That exit was far less skirting with the rules than Hubbell and Donohue’s lift!

I think a lot rides on the speed of the entry and how quickly Zach does the decent on his lifting of Madison…in slow mo I think it’s dangerously close to fully extended above the head for 3 seconds - enough for the (technical caller) human eye to flag as “sustained”.

https://imgur.com/W9jQXWE

The story I remember is there was rumblings there would be a deduction in Vancouver so they changed it. But I don't think they were ever dinged for it in competition.

I am sure people are already complaining and politicking about H/D's lift as it is spectacular. I don't know who was on the tech panel at this competition but their team and the US federation at Champs Camps must have looked into this and decided it was worth it and within the limits, so I say meet any politicking head on and fight for its inclusion. And then make a rule for next season if the powers that be decide to ban it.

I am kind of dismayed to see so many on this board wanting them to throw in the towel right away and not risk it. I say risk it, push the limits. For a team whose lifts are generally underwhelming I want to see them fight for this one.

 

[Wyliefan]

They could literally lose a medal over it. You can't blame people for not wanting that to happen.

 

[Andrea82]

I don't know who was on the tech panel at this competition

Hal Marron (USA), Rock Lemay (Canada) and Kristen Fraser-Lukanin (New Jersey, Azerbaijan).

 

[marbri]

They could literally lose a medal over it. You can't blame people for not wanting that to happen.

There are a lot of competitions between now and Beijing. They can go the same route as V/M in 2010 where they modify for the Olympics if needed. But push the limits and show people you can do this now in the next few competitions.

 

[NinjaTurtles]

I don’t disagree at all that it’s cognitive dissonance to harp on HubDon’s lift when historically their lifts have skewed towards the non-acrobatic and recycling. I hope they do figure out a way to get ahead of any whispers of illegality or otherwise shore up the gray area…BUT, I don’t blame fans or coaches taking a conservative approach as the process stands. If ISU had a more robust and transparent system for challenging calls, or at the very least challenging elements being called illegal, then for sure they should keep it. Figure skating isn’t the NFL though.

 

[Karen-W]

I definitely wouldn't get rid of the lift between now and SkAm. Yes, there are questions about it's legality but they're going to lose enough points to drop below 2nd at either of their GPs. Worse case scenario, it gets called at the GPF, they lose out on a medal there. Even if they don't get it called there, by then they'll have enough feedback by then to know whether or not they need to spend a couple months re-working it before the Olympics.

 

[Cherub721]

I don't think H&D are looking for 2nd places at their GPs. They certainly want to win against C&B to stay the top US team and push P&C as much as they possibly can considering P&C's time off. It'll be clearer after Finlandia, but as of right now this is the best chance H&D would ever have to beat P&C in competition.

 

[Debbie S]

There are less-underwhelming/non-recycling lifts that don't risk violating the rules. Plenty of other teams have done "spectacular" lifts, including flip-up type entries, that stayed within the boundaries. If this type of lift was legal w/o question, you would probably see a lot of other teams doing it.

 

[Bigbird]

Has Ushakova corrected her posture?

Edit: Is Katashinskaya available? Is she too tall for Nekresov? Is she skating with a boyfriend? Selfish I know but when you need to know..