U.S. Ice Dance 2020-21 season news & updates

Cherub721

YEAH!
Messages
17,856
Do you know something? Separately I have heard that Marina and Sergei are planning a move to Florida, or they are already there. Of course, Evgeny has been coaching in West Palm Beach for several years now.

Just musing. Maybe I'll turn out to be right!
 

dancing_on_ice

Well-Known Member
Messages
244
Christina has a green card now, so that means she's on track for citizenship by 2026, so long as she stays a US resident. Thus, I don't think they would rock the boat and switch nationalities to Canada and then go through the hassle of getting him citizenship. As such, Canadian coaches are out of the question. Marina is probably the most sensible choice since she's the US-based ice dance coast with the most experience and reputation. She's also currently lacking a top ice dance team, so CPom would presumably get all of her attention.

I do wonder about Igor's ice dance program. Just a year ago, he seemed set, with CPom on the rise, and N/K killing it on the Junior level. It looked like Igor was likely to break the Gadbois stranglehold on the US podium and contend for World and Olympic medals in the coming years. Now, that's all gone, since CPom have left him and N/K have split. Is his top team W/C now?
 

aka_gerbil

Rooting for the Underdogs
Messages
4,713
If it was discussed before, I missed it, but I'm glad to hear that Christina has her green card and things are on track for 2026. Even if she had the green card now, I feel like the only way they'd go to Beijing (presuming it still happens) is as an alternate.

I do think Marina Z. is the most likely place they'll land. She's the coach of multiple OGMs and medalists in dance--V/M, D/W, B/A, Shibs. I presume T/M will return to Florida at some point for at least some amount of time, but they're in pairs and Marina does not have another top ice dance team right now. C/P also need some political power behind them, and Platov and Scali really don't have that.

Anthony's parents have an OGM in ice dance. They know what it takes to play and win this game, on-the-ice and politics-wise. I can't see them sending their son to someone who doesn't have the pull. That sort of rules out Scali and Platov.
 

Yuri

Well-Known Member
Messages
813
While of course Platov has a long-term friendship with Klimova & Ponomarenko as competitors and touring mates, I am not aware of any comments from him indicating that he really wants to get back into the political game of coaching a potential top 10 world team. He hasn't had a couple like that since relocating to Florida and, frankly, it would likely interfere with his golf game! :GnP1:
 

litenkyckling

Well-Known Member
Messages
787
I get the impression that Igor puts all his energy into his junior teams these days - glad they've decided to move as I think a change is always a good way to grow (and they've been with Igor for like, 6/7 years?). I'd love to see a move to Marina because her choreo would push them. Also a good move to do this before the Olympics when other people will be trying to move
 

Spiralgraph

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,685
Well I was surprised by this decision, but I think it's a good move. C/P are my second favorite American team and I wish them good success. If they go to Marina and exert a bit of creative control over their programs like the Shibs, I can see Christina and Anthony becoming a top team.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
I have a feeling there's a reason most teams don't go to Platov anymore. He probably is happy with the life he has now. Coaching elite-level isn't for everyone. Many prefer coaching lower levels and adults.

Anyway, I still think both Igor and Marina haven't been nearly as good apart as they were together. Sure many of us rolled our eyes at their work and didn't like they're style of pushing and pulling substituting for actual ice dance holds in order to get speed whereas places like Gadbois are showing how it's done, but look at what they produced in comparison apart.

Igor always made sure programs were full of content and he would maximize and challenge the skaters to go the extra mile athletically to leave an impression while Marina was able to rein him in, knew how to edit programs, and polish the programs so that they didn't look too busy or extraneous with too many arm flourishes in the place of actual choreography (see some of later Chock/Bates programs).

Marina's real issue is that I don't think she can actually choreograph from the ground up and she's not a tech coach and the team she put together to make up tech weren't always the best to eyeing ways to get level 4. Igor can't choreograph at all but at least he seems eager to make a program. He was known as a great tech coach to can get his teams level 4 but then people started wondering when his teams had issues with that later on. Pasquale relied on Anjelika to be the tech coach and she seemed a bit inconsistent. He knows how to choreograph though...at least better than Igor and Marina. Those three could be a threat if they combined forces. I know Pasquale and Igor are already together, but I think Pasquale's programs for the most part could use some finishing to go from good/very good to even better.

Of course my idea above only works if Marina wasn't the way that she was. She really does seem to not to be able to work with others longterm due to whatever it is in her that makes her want to takeover. Of course, the initial Igor break up seemed to have been initiated by him with the teams thinking he had less time for them, but I wonder if there was a reason for that. I also think had Igor and Marina been together, V/M wouldn't have left Sochi so bitter about their experiences thinking mommy put all of her attention to Davis/White. With Igor, they could have split their time in a way to satisfy both teams.
 
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layman

Well-Known Member
Messages
604
I don't really care who C/P train with as long as they 1. Stick together and 2. Address their weaknesses.


The major weakness that I see is that they usually skate (and partner) with a gap between them. The top dance teams skate much closer together (as did Nguyen/Kolesnik). I hope that C/P can learn to skate (and partner) closer together. Then, I think their scores will go up.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
I would like it if Anthony showed more flexibility with his free leg. The lack of extension on his free-leg is distracting.
 

Sylvia

TBD
Messages
79,989
Video story on Washington native Jean-Luc Baker by Bradley Warren (KHQ local news reporter based in Spokane, WA and a former competitive skater himself):
Article version:
And now it's Kaitlin Hawayek's turn to get some local media coverage from her hometown (Buffalo, NY):
 

sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,546
I have a feeling there's a reason most teams don't go to Platov anymore. He probably is happy with the life he has now. Coaching elite-level isn't for everyone. Many prefer coaching lower levels and adults.

Anyway, I still think both Igor and Marina haven't been nearly as good apart as they were together. Sure many of us rolled our eyes at their work and didn't like they're style of pushing and pulling substituting for actual ice dance holds in order to get speed whereas places like Gadbois are showing how it's done, but look at what they produced in comparison apart.

Igor always made sure programs were full of content and he would maximize and challenge the skaters to go the extra mile athletically to leave an impression while Marina was able to rein him in, knew how to edit programs, and polish the programs so that they didn't look too busy or extraneous with too many arm flourishes in the place of actual choreography (see some of later Chock/Bates programs).

Marina's real issue is that I don't think she can actually choreograph from the ground up and she's not a tech coach and the team she put together to make up tech weren't always the best to eyeing ways to get level 4. Igor can't choreograph at all but at least he seems eager to make a program. He was known as a great tech coach to can get his teams level 4 but then people started wondering when his teams had issues with that later on. Pasquale relied on Anjelika to be the tech coach and she seemed a bit inconsistent. He knows how to choreograph though...at least better than Igor and Marina. Those three could be a threat if they combined forces. I know Pasquale and Igor are already together, but I think Pasquale's programs for the most part could use some finishing to go from good/very good to even better.

Of course my idea above only works if Marina wasn't the way that she was. She really does seem to not to be able to work with others longterm due to whatever it is in her that makes her want to takeover. Of course, the initial Igor break up seemed to have been initiated by him with the teams thinking he had less time for them, but I wonder if there was a reason for that. I also think had Igor and Marina been together, V/M wouldn't have left Sochi so bitter about their experiences thinking mommy put all of her attention to Davis/White. With Igor, they could have split their time in a way to satisfy both teams.
What makes you think Marina can't actually choreograph from ground up? What does that even mean? She has to take someone else's choreography and then tweak it?
 

sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,546
I don't really care who C/P train with as long as they 1. Stick together and 2. Address their weaknesses.


The major weakness that I see is that they usually skate (and partner) with a gap between them. The top dance teams skate much closer together (as did Nguyen/Kolesnik). I hope that C/P can learn to skate (and partner) closer together. Then, I think their scores will go up.
I don't think Marina could fix this. She needs to have a good tech coach with her that could address that. Who does she have right now for that?
 

Bigbird

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,027
Igor and Marina were at their best together. Nothing they have done alone or apart compares to what they did together. I respect his talent and abilities but Igor lost his "it" factor many moons ago. Oh how I used to revise the tango he did for Punsalon and Swallow.

But in all fairness I think dance is long overdue for a breakout couple. Other than P/C IMHO, we don't have that type of standout couple. We have pretty, nice, fast, avante gard etc but we're still looking for that complete package.

I hope this change brings the transformation they're hoping for.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
What makes you think Marina can't actually choreograph from ground up? What does that even mean? She has to take someone else's choreography and then tweak it?
Because I’ve seen her programs and the fact that the Shibs were left on their own mostly to edit their own music and go to outside choreographers to finally get success. She mostly edited their dances after they did bulk of the work themselves with other choreographers. Notice how not many are going to her for choreography anymore. For singles and pairs, she had an easier time because most of their programs are taken up by level four elements and jumping passes. For ice dance, you have to choreograph the elements. Marina’s best skills in ice dance has been tweaking and polishing programs. When she worked with Igor, I bet both had a heavy hand in choreography. He came up with elements and such and she came up with packaging and theme.
 
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VGThuy

Well-Known Member
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41,020
And here I thought Gordeeva & Grinkov were pretty legendary;).

Course, I ♥️ my Shibs!
They were great but I’m not the only one who thought their programs were kind of empty. A lot of people on FSU said that. However, what they had was gorgeous skills and gorgeous packaging that made them nearly untouchable. Which isn’t contrary to what I said about Marina being great at overall packaging and finishing and polish. People acting like FSU hasn’t been criticizing Zoueva choreography since at least 2004.
 

sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,546
They were great but I’m not the only one who thought their programs were kind of empty. A lot of people on FSU said that. However, what they had was gorgeous skills and gorgeous packaging that made them nearly untouchable. Which isn’t contrary to what I said about Marina being great at overall packaging and finishing and polish. People acting like FSU hasn’t been criticizing Zoueva choreography since at least 2004.
FSU criticizes everyone. Going to outside choreographers doesn’t mean Marina doesn’t know how to choreograph from ground up— it could just be an injection of fresh ideas.

I don’t remember— were the Shib’s outside choreographers other figure skating choreographers, or were they off-ice dance choreographers? Because translating off-ice dance into on-ice dance is very difficult, and is something I think Marina does quite well.
 

Yuri

Well-Known Member
Messages
813
It's not at all unusual for top couples to hire outside choreographers with experience in ballroom or modern dance on the floor for their programs. But then some combination of their coaches or themselves must translate such off-ice choreography to the ice which is an art in itself. There's no shame in that particularly when someone has coached many couples over a long career. You need fresh ideas at times for creativity.

Many said that Natalia Linichuk couldn't choreograph at all even when she was coaching around half of the top 10-12 couples including at least one medalist. Grishuk and Platov relied more upon outside choreographers (and themselves) once they reached the top, including for both of their awesome 1996-97 programs where they started with floor experts for the Argentine tango and Eastern dances. Their legal dispute with Linichuk & Karponosov centered on who created what.

I would imagine this trend of using off ice dancers for choreography has only increased over the years. Frankly, to the benefit of ice dancing.
 

VGThuy

Well-Known Member
Messages
41,020
FSU criticizes everyone. Going to outside choreographers doesn’t mean Marina doesn’t know how to choreograph from ground up— it could just be an injection of fresh ideas.

I don’t remember— were the Shib’s outside choreographers other figure skating choreographers, or were they off-ice dance choreographers? Because translating off-ice dance into on-ice dance is very difficult, and is something I think Marina does quite well.
The Shibs like V/M and D/W relied on Marina for choreography after the Igor split. They often consulted with off-ice choreographers like ballroom dancers like every other ice dance team does. The Shibs even had the choreographer for the film Memoirs of a Geisha give feedback to their FD with that same music, but it didn't translate well via choreography over the ice. She also had issues choreographing their Yankee Polka OD, constantly re-editing it, re-choreographing it, changing it (must like what V/M went through during their last two years with her). However, many V/M fans said Marina was really at a loss as to what to do with them and their Carmen FD and FinnStep SD apparently were heavily choreographed by other choreographers. The dances Marina did choreograph for them, their Sochi FD never gelled and Marina kept tinkering with it. It was a program not a lot of people liked. Marina seemed to gel more with D/W because but nobody was really celebrating their Scheherazade FD or other programs.

For the Shibs, when it was just Marina and her team, she couldn't really come up with programs for them. So they sought Peter Tchernyeshev who choreographed their Coldplay exhibition program to "O" which got a lot of great audience response, so sought him to make their "Fix You" FD. After a bad outing at an Nepela, Marina (with Massimo) edited Peter's work, re-arranged the elements, and made some changes to the lifts, etc., and we had the program that put them back on top at US Nationals and to a World silver medal and lots of fanfare. They went back to Peter T. and (and probably Stephane Lambiel, who choreographed their exhibition) for their following FD set to the soundtrack of The Truman Show and a mix with Max Ricther's work for "The Leftovers" which helped them win two GP events, and stay on the international podium with V/M coming back feeling great with their new choreography/choreographers at Gadbois. Alex and Maia edited their own music with the help of Ryanimay from the hip hop dance team Quest Crew for their hip hop/blues SD and sought outside hip hop choreographers for their SD. For their Olympic programs, Alex and Ryaninmay edited the Perez Prado Latin-American music themselves and Alex and Maia and Massimo with Marina supervising mostly came up with the content of their dance. For the FD, it was mostly Maia and Alex and Massimo with feedback from Stephane Lambiel and Renee Roca with Marina supervising.

Believe me, I didn't get the Marina has issues choreographing ice dance routines by herself out of nowhere. Even in that V/M doc, she didn't know much about getting levels and told Johnny Johns that was "his" job. I think that's why they got Massimo Scali on board and I also think Oleg Epstein was in charge of coaching ice dance tech as well.
 
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sap5

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,546
The Shibs like V/M and D/W relied on Marina for choreography after the Igor split. They often consulted with off-ice choreographers like ballroom dancers like every other ice dance team does. However, many V/M fans said Marina was really at a loss as to what to do with them and their Carmen FD and FinnStep SD apparently were heavily choreographed by other choreographers. The dances Marina did choreograph for them, their Sochi FD never gelled and Marina kept tinkering with it. It was a program not a lot of people liked. Marina seemed to gel more with D/W because but nobody was really celebrating their Scheherazade FD or other programs.

For the Shibs, when it was just Marina and her team, she couldn't really come up with programs for them. So they sought Peter Tchernyeshev who choreographed their Coldplay exhibition program to "O" which got a lot of great audience response, so sought him to make their "Fix You" FD. After a bad outing at an Nepela, Marina edited Peter's work, re-arranged the elements, and made some changes to the lifts, etc., and we had the program that put them back on top at US Nationals and to a World silver medal and lots of fanfare. They went back to Peter T. and Stephane Lambiel for their following FD set to the soundtrack of The Truman Show and a mix with Max Ricther's work for "The Leftovers" which helped them win two GP events, and stay on the international podium with V/M coming back feeling great with their new choreography/choreographers at Gadbois. Alex and Maia edited their own music with the help of Ryanimay from the hip hop dance team Quest Crew for their hip hop/blues SD and sought outside hip hop choreographers for their SD. For their Olympic programs, Alex and Ryaninmay edited the Perez Prado Latin-American music themselves and Alex and Maia mostly came up with the content of their dance. For the FD, it was mostly Maia and Alex and Massimo with feedback from Stephane Lambiel and Renee Roca with Marina supervising.

Believe me, I didn't get the Marina has issues choreographing ice dance routines by herself out of nowhere.

VM's Carmen FD and Finnstep SD were choreographed by off-ice choreographers, but really, the hardest part of choreographing is making off-ice dance work on-ice. So much of what is choreographed off-ice doesn't work when you bring it on-ice. That's where Marina excels.

Plus, before Carmen and that Finnstep, VM worked with Marina for years on programs she developed from ground up, so I don't think those examples show that she can't choreograph from the ground up.

I'm not sure if the Shibs situation was that she was at a loss as to how to choreograph for them, or that the Shibs themselves had a particular vision and direction they wanted to go in, and she stepped back to let them run with it. Maybe a combo of both? What made you think they took the reins because Marina was failing them?

As for DW, I probably will get hate for this, but I think DW's skills were limited, and their Olympic FD choreography made the best out of what they could do.

ETA: Marina and Igor worked as a team for years, but I always had the impression that Igor was in charge of making the level 4 elements, while Marina weaved the stuff together. Which didn't work all that well most of the time, because you'd see some crazy element that existed for the sake of level 4, then empty footwork, then another crazy element that made no sense. However, there were programs where things were more cohesive (like VM's Umbrellas of Cherbourg or Valse Triste), and I had the impression that those were more Marina choreographies than Igor's. Plus Dai and Kana's FD looked cohesive (at least my memory of it -- I haven't watched it again recently).
 
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