ISU to evaluate feasibility of 2020-21 skating season

[Miezekatze]

Regarding the whole let's-be-fair issue, attending group events without wearing masks & social distancing isn't fair to any of the other skaters/coaches/judges on the circuit. It places everyone's season in jeopardy. I think we've seen the consequences already in almost every sport.

Yeah, but I think it's simply impossible to avoid when looking at it realistically.

In many countries group events without social distancing are or were allowed up to a certain number of participants (varying dynamically in numbers between 10 and 250) and I don't think you can force athletes to follow laws and rules that don't exist privately, only at the events.

 

[Japanfan]

With your view of the welfare and safety of the general public in mind, it is time to return to regular life. The vast majority of people who have died of this disease around the world have been 85+ years old, and/ or already had severe underlying medical conditions. We cannNOT keep robbing EVERYBODY of the chance to live their lives. We are not truly living, we are existing. Children are being robbed of proper educations. Anxiety and depression rates are through the roof.

I live in a county with 3.3 MILLION people. We have had 700 deaths, the vast majority of whom were 85-90+ years old. To me, the far bigger tragedy is the number of children who will never catch up educationally, socially, or emotionally, the people who have lost business and homes, developed anxiety/ depression etc. Millions are suffering because 700 mostly very old people have died. That is tragic. Again, if you are going to talk about the needs of the general public, the needs of 3.3 million need to trump the needs of 700.

Haven't you noticed that societies are attempting to resume regular life? Schools have resumed, and restrictions have been lifted.

But when outbreaks occur, do you expect them to be ignored?

In certain circumstances, public welfare has to come first (am repeating myself here).

If you had a kid in school, and another kid in her/his class had the *****, would you want that school to stay open?

We don't have an entitlement to live life in a certain way when it comes to public welfare. The idea that we do is a modern Western construct.

People have lived through many circumstances that have restricted their freedom - wars and plagues have done more than that in terms of causing millions of deaths.

Restrictions related to ***** are not about robbing people of their lives, but rather, trying to ensure that people have lives.

And here the numbers among young people have risen tremendously, largely because they have been ignoring restrictions and partying, etc. Numerous videos have been posted online about people who got the ***** and really regret not having taken it seriously.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Haven't you noticed that societies are attempting to resume regular life? Schools have resumed, and restrictions have been lifted.

No, I haven’t, because I live in California, where our governor thinks he’s king and that he can keep everything closed down until the end of all time.

But when outbreaks occur, do you expect them to be ignored?

I expect life to not shut down every time there is another positive case. It’s not sustainable to do so.

In certain circumstances, public welfare has to come first (am repeating myself here).

If it’s about public welfare, the needs of 3.3 million people need to come before the 700 who have died. That is like .0002% of the population in our county. How does keeping wife shut down serve the public welfare when half of our workforce has been forced out of work indefinitely?

If you had a kid in school, and another kid in her/his class had the *****, would you want that school to stay open?

Yes, because if you were to close down the schools every g*dd*mn time someone tests positive, you would never have schools open.

We don't have an entitlement to live life in a certain way when it comes to public welfare. The idea that we do is a modern Western construct.

Again, if it’s about public welfare, let’s not keep millions of people unemployed in definitely because they have a .00002% chance of dying of a virus.

People have lived through many circumstances that have restricted their freedom - wars and plagues have done more than that in terms of causing millions of deaths.

Restrictions related to ***** are not about robbing people of their lives, but rather, trying to ensure that people have lives.

You are aware there is something to be said about actual quality of life, right? Simply existing is not a life. You clearly have not lost your job, your home, everything you’ve worked for your whole life, etc.

And here the numbers among young people have risen tremendously, largely because they have been ignoring restrictions and partying, etc. Numerous videos have been posted online about people who got the ***** and really regret not having taken it seriously.

If you think it is remotely realistic for young people to just sit in their rooms and not interact with others, you are not at all realistic. You can hole up in your home until the end of all time if you choose. Stop expecting other people to piss away the best years of their lives rotting in their homes.

 

[MsZem]

In certain circumstances, public welfare has to come first (am repeating myself here).

I'll repeat myself too: the question is, what course of action gets us the best possible outcome in terms of public welfare? Because the attempts to crush CV come at a cost, and I don't just mean money (not that people's livelihoods don't matter). It's a cost paid by people who are not getting vaccinated for other diseases, who are not getting needed treatment in a timely manner, whose mental health suffers. It's the elderly people dying alone of other things. It's the at-risk kids falling behind educationally, the first generation college students forced to drop out, the rehab patients not getting rehab - and for some conditions, you can't just take a break.

I realize that for some people these costs are less salient, and of course you can't let things get out of control and have massive CV outbreaks. But cautiously conducting sports competitions, with mitigation measures in place (not like what we saw in Russia, mind you), is not letting things get out of control. There are sports events going on in many places, and even where there have been cases (e.g. MLB) they managed to get a handle on things.

The skaters should be allowed to make their own decisions, so long as local authorities are okay with competitions going forward.

 

[Japanfan]

I'll repeat myself too: the question is, what course of action gets us the best possible outcome in terms of public welfare? Because the attempts to crush CV come at a cost, and I don't just mean money (not that people's livelihoods don't matter). It's a cost paid by people who are not getting vaccinated for other diseases, who are not getting needed treatment in a timely manner, whose mental health suffers. It's the elderly people dying alone of other things. It's the at-risk kids falling behind educationally, the first generation college students forced to drop out, the rehab patients not getting rehab - and for some conditions, you can't just take a break.

It all comes back to - none of that matters if the people who need vaccinations, treatments, education, and rehab are all dead or in a critical care unit.

But I'll repeat myself again in noting that societies are opening up. All of the above are available to people again, although some are being restricted due to new outbreaks.

When outbreaks occur because of opening up, should nothing be done?

I realize that for some people these costs are less salient, and of course you can't let things get out of control. But cautiously conducting sports competitions, with mitigation measures in place (not like what we saw in Russia, mind you), is not letting things get out of control. There are sports events going on in many places, and even where there have been cases (e.g. MLB) they did not get out of control.

The skaters should be allowed to make their own decisions, so long as local authorities are okay with competitions going forward.

Which is happening, to varying extents in different places.

 

[MsZem]

It all comes back to - none of that matters if the people who need vaccinations, treatments, education, and rehab are all dead or in a critical care unit.

People will die of other things, or suffer severe impact to their quality of life, if restrictions are too extreme or go on for too long in the hope of crushing something that can't truly be crushed at this point.

Of course if the situation gets really bad more severe steps are called for. But there are places that are still keeping kids home despite low case number/test positivity rates. How can that be justified? Lockdowns should be a last resort, not the first option. Which is why you are indeed seeing more and more countries adopting limited restrictions rather than all-out measures like they did in the spring.

 

[gkelly]

There is a large middle ground between everybody staying home and doing nothing, and everybody going back to doing exactly what they were doing last year with no acknowledgment of the current danger.

The trick is figuring out how to hold activities in conditions with minimized risk, as safely as we know how.

With skating competitions, the risks are more in the travel and socializing than in the skating itself.

So take those risks into consideration when planning events, and get the skaters, coaches, officials, and volunteers to buy into new protocols that may make the experience of the events seem different than they used to be so that the events can go forward.

The other big risk would be in allowing crowds to gather in close quarters as spectators.

 

[Miezekatze]

When outbreaks occur because of opening up, should nothing be done?

No, but there's very different reactions to the virus all over the world.

I think in Europe there are no "outbreaks", because there is widespread community transmission now. The countries are taking more restrictions (up until a lockdown maybe) when the rise in numbers is too fast. But they let numbers rise until this point and are going to accept that there is a constant number of infections. I think this will definitely stay this way until there is a vaccine or a medicine.
Same in the US obviously, because the curve was never as flat as in most of Europe.

In New Zealand and Australia there are going to be "outbreaks", because they suppress the virus harder.

This also makes it more difficult to plan sports events and also makes it a reality is that skaters from all over the world have to live by very different rules in their private and professional life and there's no way to say globally "if the situation is like this, THEN an event has to be cancelled", it probably depends on the respective country and is complicated.

I don't really expect many of the GP events to take place, but I can't really judge how realistic which of them is.

But for example France is taking very high risks with sports events, I read this morning they're even still letting some spectators to the final leg of the Tour de France. I doubt that would be allowed here in Germany right now in a city with the same numbers as Paris. And I'm also not surprised that French skaters would be taking more risks in private, when they live in a country that lifted more restrictions than others over the summer.

 

[BlueRidge]

I think the tentative attempts to hold relatively safe events is a good idea. I hope skating will move forward. In the US there have been problems but Major League Baseball has managed.

As long as people are not forced to take risks they don't want to take, a lot of people want to have a semblance of normalcy. Of course it has to be done carefully and with great attention to safeguards. And even then failures happen. Opera is trying to stage events and we have the situation where Anna Netrebko is now in the hospital with C-vid, but she said she wanted to sing.

 

[Dave of the North]

It's hard enough to sit through a work meeting on Zoom and follow everything that's going on. Trying to judge figure skating via Zoom would be next to impossible. There's just too much going on during a live performance to be able to fairly evaluate it with only video.

That didn't stop all of us at home from judging skating on TV, as seen by the lively discussions in the PBP threads.

 

[Japanfan]

People will die of other things, or suffer severe impact to their quality of life, if restrictions are too extreme or go on for too long in the hope of crushing something that can't truly be crushed at this point.

But probably not in the same staggering amount of numbers. Depression and anxiety are not contagious in the same way that ***** is.

And once again, I'll point out that restrictions are being lifted. Kids are back in school, shops are reopening, etc. And consequently, numbers are rising.

Of course if the situation gets really bad more severe steps are called for. But there are places that are still keeping kids home despite low case number/test positivity rates. How can that be justified?

Schools are reopened here, and SFAIK, in most or all of the western developed world. Some have to shut down quickly, however, due to outbreaks.

Lockdowns should be a last resort, not the first option. Which is why you are indeed seeing more and more countries adopting limited restrictions rather than all-out measures like they did in the spring.

We did and are doing quite well in Canada - particularly in my province - precisely because a lockdown was implemented quickly and early. However, our federal government is being criticized for not doing it sooner.

The US is another story.

How many people have to die before lockdown becomes a last resort?

I am able to live a mostly normal life here in my Canadian province precisely because of the early lockdown. We've done so well that masks are not even mandatory in shops (though many people wear them). They are mandatory on public transit, which I agree with. Still not sure about schools, all the news about schools is overwhelming. But SFAIK, there are mask requirements in schools.

 

[Vagabond]

With your view of the welfare and safety of the general public in mind, it is time to return to regular life. The vast majority of people who have died of this disease around the world have been 85+ years old, and/ or already had severe underlying medical conditions.

Many people who get severely ill from you-know-what don't die. Boris Johnson is a well-known example. He was 55 at the time.

And it isn't just the skaters who would be at competitions. People like Rafael Arutyunyan (age 63), Alexei Mishin (age 79), Brian Orser (age 58), Shin Amano (age 47), Olga Buyanova (age 66), and Jan Dijkema (almost 76) would be there too.

 

[Miezekatze]

They are all adults and can decide for themselves.

Would you like to have someone else (like skating fans?) deciding for you if and how you can get back to work, if it's possible?

 

[Vagabond]

Would you like to have someone else (like skating fans?) deciding for you if and how you can get back to work, if it's possible?

Or even deciding whether or not you (the poster in question) get infected?

 

[Dobre]

Yeah, but I think it's simply impossible to avoid when looking at it realistically.

In many countries group events without social distancing are or were allowed up to a certain number of participants (varying dynamically in numbers between 10 and 250) and I don't think you can force athletes to follow laws and rules that don't exist privately, only at the events.

Sports organizations require athletes to follow anti-doping policies in their private lives. Not only at events. Many organizations hold individuals to specific codes of conduct beyond what is legal or illegal. We hold athletes responsible for dress codes that have nothing to do with what is permitted in different countries. Companies' handbooks are full of requirements for staff behaviors. The same with schools, camp attendants, etc. When one's actions impact someone else's physical, mental, or emotional health, people can be held accountable by organizations. (Anti-cyber bullying policies would be an example). Organizations aren't required to be as loose in what they accept as the lowest common legal denominator among their membership's national laws.

I think you have a point about there being many different legal requirements among different countries. But these athletes are mixing with people from other countries, which both may give those athletes more freedom than the average citizen and also places everyone at a higher risk than the average citizen. The ISU and member organizations are investing into reserving rinks and hosting events. If athletes' high risk behaviors lead to outbreaks among the skating community and the cancellation of those events, those organizations will be left on the hook. For that reason, I would say that skating organizations can absolutely require a code of conduct for event participants beyond what one particular country requires. Organizations need to decide what type of safety culture they are going to establish as a whole, and it is best done up front and from the very start.

The ISU, USFS, the hosts of Nebelhorn, the Russian Fed, etc. are trying to give the skating community a path to continue the season. They can hold participants to a higher standard if they so choose. It could genuinely make a difference in whether we see events continue to play out throughout the season.

 

[MacMadame]

In the US, only 6% of the people who died did not have at least one other serious health condition.

That is not true. 6% only listed C19 on their death certificates. The rest listed other things but those things included stuff like heart attacks --- which are caused by C19.

That doesn't mean that 94% had serious underlying conditions or even any underlying conditions at all. Or that the 6% didn't have underlying conditions. Since no one dies of C19 directly but of the things that C19 causes to happen in your body (heart attack, stroke, pneumonia, organ failure) it means that 6% of the death certificates are not complete. That's it. You can't extract any other information out of that statistic.

Also, it's not true that most of the people dying are 85 and older. If you had said 70 or older or 60 and older, your statement would be truer but still not 100% accurate as only 48% of the deaths have been with people 75 or older so that's not even a majority. 60 and older would get you a slight majority but nothing like "most." Most -- as in 96% -- of the deaths have been aged 45 and up. And almost as many 45-64-year-olds have died as have 65-74-year-olds so it's not like middle-aged people are doing better than the senior citizens.

You need to stop repeating Trump talking points and get some real data.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Many people who get severely ill from you-know-what don't die. Boris Johnson is a well-known example. He was 55 at the time.

And it isn't just the skaters who would be at competitions. People like Rafael Arutyunyan (age 63), Alexei Mishin (age 79), Brian Orser (age 58), Shin Amano (age 47), Olga Buyanova (age 66), and Jan Dijkema (almost 76) would be there too.
[/QUOT

Any of those people you just mentioned in their 80s

That is not true. 6% only listed C19 on their death certificates. The rest listed other things but those things included stuff like heart attacks --- which are caused by C19.

That doesn't mean that 94% had serious underlying conditions or even any underlying conditions at all. Or that the 6% didn't have underlying conditions. Since no one dies of C19 directly but of the things that C19 causes to happen in your body (heart attack, stroke, pneumonia, organ failure) it means that 6% of the death certificates are not complete. That's it. You can't extract any other information out of that statistic.

Also, it's not true that most of the people dying are 85 and older. If you had said 70 or older or 60 and older, your statement would be truer but still not 100% accurate as only 48% of the deaths have been with people 75 or older so that's not even a majority. 60 and older would get you a slight majority but nothing like "most." Most -- as in 96% -- of the deaths have been aged 45 and up. And almost as many 45-64-year-olds have died as have 65-74-year-olds so it's not like middle-aged people are doing better than the senior citizens.

You need to stop repeating Trump talking points and get some real data.

How about YOU provide some actual citations for your sources? What country do you live in? Healthy 45-year-olds are not dropping like flies in the US, so stop acting like they are! You are just feeding in to the narrative that we should all just exist in fear.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Many people who get severely ill from you-know-what don't die. Boris Johnson is a well-known example. He was 55 at the time.

And it isn't just the skaters who would be at competitions. People like Rafael Arutyunyan (age 63), Alexei Mishin (age 79), Brian Orser (age 58), Shin Amano (age 47), Olga Buyanova (age 66), and Jan Dijkema (almost 76) would be there too.

Are any of the people you mentioned 85+? As you said, Boris Johnson had the virus. He recovered, and is back working as prime minister. All those people you mentioned are ADULTS who can make their own decisions without needing the government to dictate how they are to live their lives.

 

[Sylvia]

Can we PLEASE keep this GSD thread more or less on topic -- feasibility of skating this season?

Both the Politically Incorrect & Worldwide Health forums exist for a reason.

 

[Vagabond]

Are any of the people you mentioned 85+?

People aged 47 to 79 are, by definition, not aged 85+.

 

[Cherub721]

Can we PLEASE keep this GSD thread more or less on topic -- feasibility of skating this season?

Both the Politically Incorrect & Worldwide Health forums exist for a reason.

Does anyone know why we still don't have the GP assignments? Skate America is a month away!

 

[Sylvia]

Replying to part of @kwanatic's post in this (more relevant) thread:

"DIY video" competitions could be something the USFSA leans into during the first half of the season. I mean, the JGP got cancelled, Senior Bs are cancelled and, if I understand correctly, the only GP event for US skaters will be SA...that's not much competing going on in the season prior to an Olympic season.
... rather than having skaters sitting around waiting for the bigger competitions next year, the USFSA can host a mini-Grand Prix of sorts this season using this video method. The cost to host events has to be exponentially less than it would be to organize them at venues. I'm assuming they'd need a couple of people to handle organizing the judges and callers and someone to track video submissions, maybe someone to do voice over introductions for the skaters and reveal the scores--all stuff that can be done remotely and probably for a fraction of the cost of hosting a traditional event.

I think USFS (and other federations) have their hands full organizing their own Nationals qualifying competition season. I'm happy to see that there are virtual competitions for invited U.S. skaters (ISP Points Challenge for Senior/Junior in all disciplines & Challenge Skate for Junior/Novice singles), and I'm hoping all 8 of the Championships Series in person competitions (spanning Nov. 9 to Dec. 6) are able to go ahead as planned. Plus, some U.S. clubs already have held or are planning to host their own competitions locally (check the U.S. Club Competitions thread in Kiss & Cry for the latest info).

I wonder if Finlandia Trophy can or will held be held virtually? (as the announcement mentioned when it was cancelled).

 

[kates8]

I found it interesting in the recent interview with Romain that he stated...

“The French have to compete in France, the Canadians in Canada, the three U.S. teams compete at Skate America,” Haguenauer said. “We also have two teams in China which we coach every day by Zoom. We do two hours every night as they are in Beijing. Tim (Koleto) and Misato (Komatsubara) are back in Japan and they are going to compete at NHK so after we have to organise the travel.

“Travelling is kind of a problem because if the French leave for France I want to be able to be sure they are able to come back to Canada. The ones who have tourist visas cannot so we have to solve that with the federation and Immigration Canada plus there’s also the quarantine."

If the French are called back to France to compete in GP, I wonder if Romain will go back with 2 French teams and then they just stay there for Nationals and possibly Europeans.

The US skaters training in Canada have more issues in quite possibly not being able to return if they leave to compete at Skate America. At a bare minimum if they are allowed back they would have the strict 14 day quarantine. But I really don't see how US will hold a GP in Vegas with the state of the virus.

ISU and organizing federations are very quiet and vague about any of the upcoming GPs - maybe they are all collaborating in background on how to run virtual competitions so as not to endanger health of athlete, coaches, volunteers etc.

 

[aka_gerbil]

What Romain is saying is not what the ISU said—teams can skate in the gp event in the country they train in. Assuming Vladimir Morozov recovers, T/M are going to compete at SA because they train in the US. The Gadbois teams skating for France and the US should be able to compete at SC.

 

[MacMadame]

How about YOU provide some actual citations for your sources? What country do you live in? Healthy 45-year-olds are not dropping like flies in the US, so stop acting like they are! You are just feeding in to the narrative that we should all just exist in fear.

I didn't say they are dropping like flies. I said the majority of deaths in the US are from those aged 45 and up, not 85 and up. Here are my sources:

Coronavirus Age, Sex, Demographics (COVID-19) - Worldometer

Age, sex, demographic characteristics such as pre-existing conditions, of coronavirus cases of patients infected with COVID-19 and deaths, as observed in studies on the virus outbreak originating from Wuhan, China

tinyurl.com

Where are yours?

 

[Cherub721]

What Romain is saying is not what the ISU said—teams can skate in the gp event in the country they train in. Assuming Vladimir Morozov recovers, T/M are going to compete at SA because they train in the US. The Gadbois teams skating for France and the US should be able to compete at SC.

I'm wondering if what he's quoting is IAM's own policy for how they submitted their skaters for assignments. It would be understandable that they didn't want all of their teams going up against each other at an insane SC while other events will be virtually empty (especially since we don't know how qualification will work yet). That doesn't help the US teams too much though, since they would all have to do SA, but if C&B are injured, then sending just H&D and H&B works since they're not in direct competition.

 

[kates8]

Technically I don't believe IAM has a say in any GP invitations (although I suspect they have had influence in the past). Federations invite teams in conjunction with rankings I believe. Now this year every rule is thrown out the window so not sure how any event is going to be run or if they will even be held. I hope the ISU/Federations announce something soon so skaters can focus on their season path or if no Fall competitions then they can re-group and re-build their season with training and breaks to gear up for their Nationals in ~December.

 

[taz'smum]

The Russian skaters seem pretty sure that there is going to be a Russian GP of some form.

The Russians are more fortunate than most as they actually have a plan for the season,

• 2 Russian Cup competitions
• 1 Russian GP
• 1 Russian Nationals
• 1 Russian Cup final

5 competitions is great in terms of quantity given the current situation.

Also, this season, even the Russian cup comps are being televised on the main channels.
As there is so little sport going on anywhere, the Russians are lapping up the skating!

So the profile of national skating is being elevated which is at least one positive from this horrible situation.

 

[carriecmu0503]

But probably not in the same staggering amount of numbers. Depression and anxiety are not contagious in the same way that ***** is.

And once again, I'll point out that restrictions are being lifted. Kids are back in school, shops are reopening, etc. And consequently, numbers are rising.



Schools are reopened here, and SFAIK, in most or all of the western developed world. Some have to shut down quickly, however, due to outbreaks.



We did and are doing quite well in Canada - particularly in my province - precisely because a lockdown was implemented quickly and early. However, our federal government is being criticized for not doing it sooner.

The US is another story.

How many people have to die before lockdown becomes a last resort?

I am able to live a mostly normal life here in my Canadian province precisely because of the early lockdown. We've done so well that masks are not even mandatory in shops (though many people wear them). They are mandatory on public transit, which I agree with. Still not sure about schools, all the news about schools is overwhelming. But SFAIK, there are mask requirements in schools.

Seriously? You think your cases are low because of lockdowns? I live in CA, the very first state in the US to lock down. The state with the strictest lockdowns. Guess what? We have by far the highest number of cases and deaths. How might you explain that?

 

[Vagabond]

Seriously? You think your cases are low because of lockdowns? I live in CA, the very first state in the US to lock down. The state with the strictest lockdowns. Guess what? We have by far the highest number of cases and deaths. How might you explain that?

As I am sure you know, California is by far the largest state in the country in terms of population.

When states and the District of Columbia are measured by the number of cases per 100,000 people, it currently ranks twenty-second out of fifty-one.

U.S. states with the highest COVID rates 2023 | Statista

As of Mar. 2023, two U.S. states had COVID rates higher than 42 cases per 100 population. Maryland had the lowest rate of cases.

tinyurl.com

When states and the District of Columbia are measured by the number of cases per 100,000 people, California currently ranks twenty-seventh out of fifty-one.

U.S. COVID death rate by state 2023 | Statista

As of March 2023, Arizona had the highest COVID death rate in the U.S., with 455 deaths per 100,000 population. Hawaii had the lowest death rate.

tinyurl.com

Incidentally, Nevada, the site of Skate America this season, has a higher rate of both cases and deaths than California, the site of U.S. Nationals.