bardtoob
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What if .... 2002 Olympic Ladies Competition
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antmanb
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So hang on the rules of this game are - Cohen attempts and falls on a 3Lz/3T so her version of "clean" is that she lands a 3Lz/2T. But Hughes who most certainly didn't land a clean 3/3 either, let alone 2 (did she ever land a clean 3/3lp combination?) gets to have her clean content include two 3/3s in this scenario?
olympic
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No. In my mind, the threshold in this fantasy scenario is 1) landing the 3-3 at some point in the season, and 2) being given credit for the 3-3. Hughes did both when it counted. I disregarded Cohen because she never landed one and IIRC, would only eke one out in the qualifying round of 2003 Worlds. So, her attempt at SLC wasn't considered for this. I used the same methodology for Slutskaya and the 3Z-3L, but not Kwan and the 3T-3T, because Kwan would land one at 2002 Worlds, within a month of the Olympics.
gkelly
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I remember in summer of 1998 attending the US's junior worlds tryout competition.
Sarah Hughes won the ladies event easily, landing a 3Lo+3Lo combination.
From the bleachers on the opposite side of the ice, my friends and I wondered whether the second jump was fully rotated.
The combination was performed in front of the judges. We noted that the judges right in front of where she landed it gave her lower Technical Merit scores than those at the far end of the panel. So we assumed that there was underrotation visible up close, perhaps with evidence from the tracings on the ice, but from further away judges gave benefit of the doubt.
If we were even having those thoughts, then obviously underrotation was "a thing" back then.
We'll never know exactly what any individual thought about it, how much they noticed and how much they penalized.
Also, 3Lo at the end of a combination will naturally have tighter rotation and cover less ice than 3T (or 3S or 3F after a half-loop/Euler or other back inside-landing jump). So how much did 6.0 judges take that into consideration when evaluating the rotation of a 3Lo at the end of a combination -- which was still a pretty rare and impressive event?
Sarah Hughes won the ladies event easily, landing a 3Lo+3Lo combination.
From the bleachers on the opposite side of the ice, my friends and I wondered whether the second jump was fully rotated.
The combination was performed in front of the judges. We noted that the judges right in front of where she landed it gave her lower Technical Merit scores than those at the far end of the panel. So we assumed that there was underrotation visible up close, perhaps with evidence from the tracings on the ice, but from further away judges gave benefit of the doubt.
If we were even having those thoughts, then obviously underrotation was "a thing" back then.
We'll never know exactly what any individual thought about it, how much they noticed and how much they penalized.
Also, 3Lo at the end of a combination will naturally have tighter rotation and cover less ice than 3T (or 3S or 3F after a half-loop/Euler or other back inside-landing jump). So how much did 6.0 judges take that into consideration when evaluating the rotation of a 3Lo at the end of a combination -- which was still a pretty rare and impressive event?
Erin
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I've been watching a lot of older videos given that there is no current skating and have been impressed with how often the commentators have brought up underrotated jumps. In that same time frame, Barb Underhill talked about it multiple times at 1998 Skate Canada in both the men and ladies events. Once I get the Canadian coverage of 1995 Worlds uploaded, the commentary on Bonaly's underrotated jumps is worth a listen. There are a lot of other examples in the 1999-2003 Canadian Championships, although I've lost track of which competitions. Not that commentators are a perfect reflection, but it does illustrate that yes, some people did pay attention to underrotations then.
SpeedySucks
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Peggy definitely brought up underrotation for Sarah on ABC at that time as well.
Vagabond
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I think one of the CBC or British Eurosport commentators said something during the slow-motion replay of Hughes's Olympic Free Skate about possible underrotations on the triple loops, but I can't find those versions on line.
ETA: Maybe I have confused Peggy Fleming with some British or Canadian commentator.
ETA: Maybe I have confused Peggy Fleming with some British or Canadian commentator.
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It’s interesting with Sarah Hughes and the underrotations. I just recently rewatched 2001 worlds and was aghast at her jumps. Most of them were under to the naked eye and I have no memory of them being that bad. I would say the judges did take note to a certain extent; I feel she’d have beaten Nikodinov in the short on rep alone if the judges were counting the jumps as rotated. Not at all saying I’d have agreed with that 
, Nikodinov was glorious in that SP.
Comparing that worlds with SLC, her jumps were quite significantly more rotated at the Olympics. Still most of them under using our current standards, but most of them looked ok enough in real time. My feeling is that in those days, cheated jumps were only really taken into account if there was a blatant cheat. If it looked ok in real time, it was probably counted as a clean jump.
That being said, Kwan’s flip in the short was obviously under and that was ignored. I do remember though that from the NBC angle it didn’t look quite so bad, but from the angle CBC used it was
. Her mistake in the short and long were the same on the flip; dropped the right side on the takeoff and the toe slipped. She got lucky in the short and managed to stay on her feet.
I agree with those who think Kwan would have won skating cleanly. I think that Cohen would have overtaken Hughes if clean with the lutz/toe. Some judges had her ahead of Sarah as it was.
, Nikodinov was glorious in that SP.Comparing that worlds with SLC, her jumps were quite significantly more rotated at the Olympics. Still most of them under using our current standards, but most of them looked ok enough in real time. My feeling is that in those days, cheated jumps were only really taken into account if there was a blatant cheat. If it looked ok in real time, it was probably counted as a clean jump.
That being said, Kwan’s flip in the short was obviously under and that was ignored. I do remember though that from the NBC angle it didn’t look quite so bad, but from the angle CBC used it was
. Her mistake in the short and long were the same on the flip; dropped the right side on the takeoff and the toe slipped. She got lucky in the short and managed to stay on her feet.I agree with those who think Kwan would have won skating cleanly. I think that Cohen would have overtaken Hughes if clean with the lutz/toe. Some judges had her ahead of Sarah as it was.
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AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
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I feel she’d have beaten Nikodinov in the short on rep alone if the judges were counting the jumps are rotated. Not at all saying I’d have agreed with that
Did someone summon her majesty???
Erin
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And given how non-technical Peggy was, if she thought it was note-worthy, you have to assume at least some judges did.
olympic
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Seems the consensus for clean skates would be -
1.Kwan
2.Slutskaya
3.Cohen
4.Hughes
1.Kwan
2.Slutskaya
3.Cohen
4.Hughes
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
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I agree with none of that.
1. Sarah
2. Kwan
3. Cohen / Irina
4. Irina / Cohen
In addition to skating cleanly both Michelle and Irina would have needed a fire required of an Olympics competition. I went back and watched both. Both = unispiring.
1. Sarah
2. Kwan
3. Cohen / Irina
4. Irina / Cohen
In addition to skating cleanly both Michelle and Irina would have needed a fire required of an Olympics competition. I went back and watched both. Both = unispiring.
So you're saying you'd change the short program results, and in the event that all were clean in the free skate, somehow Sarah still wins. Because if you are keeping the SP the same, then Sarah cannot win in this situation unless you're trying to tell us the free skate order should've been Sarah, Sasha, Michelle.
Irina was one judge away from winning versus Sarah with THAT skate. There's no way a clean skate from her isn't going ahead.
Vagabond
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Not if a "clean" Cohen was one doing a 3T+2T combination.
Foolhardy Ham Lint
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I have to say I am pretty impressed that Cohen placed as well as she did, without the experience of participating in a previous senior World Championship to help establish her international reputation.
Regarding her short program result, the judges really liked what they saw.
Regarding her short program result, the judges really liked what they saw.
bardtoob
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Well, it was gorgeous.
Sasha COHEN USA Short Program 2002 Olympic Games Salt Lake City CBC
Sasha COHEN USA Short Program 2002 Olympic Games Salt Lake City CBC
www.youtube.com
And the Canadian commentators said she did not have as severe a flutz as Hughes, although I don't know about that.
bardtoob
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Back then I thought the spiral was about the body position above the ankle. It was not until the infamously poorly written descriptions of the spiral sequence during the initial implementation of the IJS along with some of Sonia Bianchetti's commentary on it that I realized the spiral got its name from the spiral made from holding a deep edge for an extended period of time 
olympic
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Agan, that is why I consider if Butyrskaya and Hughes controlled their own destiny vs. Cohen, and skated clean clean clean and inspired [Hughes did; Bute didn't], that may have reshuffled the results 3-5. Under 6.0, it may have been that Cohen gets held down if you had a former World Champ and multiple medalist, current European Champ skating foot-perfect.
VGThuy
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Under your LP placements, Kwan would have won the gold. However, a clean Kwan (a skate from Nationals a month before/Worlds a month after) would have at least solidified her a 2nd place in the LP thus securing the gold. Going by her scores WITH a fall, I think Kwan would have pulled off a LP win as well, and most people would have been ok with it.
The gold medal was Irina's to lose after the short program. Top three controlled their own destiny (-Terry Gannon). I actually think if Michelle had been in this position, she would have won gold. She was good at coming from behind (see 2000 and 2001 Worlds).
allezfred
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The Olympic Channel is replaying the 2002 ladies free now and I had almost forgotten how obnoxious the "USA, USA" chants were.
allezfred
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Lucky for Hughes she skated for the USA and under 6.0. Under IJS, it would have been carrot and edge violation city. Most of the jumps she did almost a full rotation on the ice.
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
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Oh, these arent my long program results, but my final results.
Im doing my best to keep up in the thread, but daddy busy.
The Kween and Irina's programs that year were a one way trip to blahs-ville. I have no idea how The Kween managed to inspire hundreds of skaters to use that free music going forward.
The Kween (Gosh, I love her) ... (Im with my friend at the moment who is from Arrowhead, born and raised..... He used to go to Ice castles all the time and sang there when it opened... was friends with Tai and Randy too.)
Anywhooooo, where was I going with all this??
Oh, yes. Sarah, Sarah, Sarah!
Wins no matter how clean Michelle and Irina could have been!
An Olympics requires an inspired and magical skate. Those free programs were not.
Shoutout: props to The Kween for a nice dress though.
Brenda_Bottems
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Coco
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Lucky for Hughes she skated for the USA and under 6.0. Under IJS, it would have been carrot and edge violation city. Most of the jumps she did almost a full rotation on the ice.
Her blade looks fairly backwards on her landings...but holy pre-rotation!
VGThuy
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Tell that to all the OGM winners who didn't have one of those.
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
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Miss Bottems!!!!
LMAO, you’re the first one to notice it and state it publicly!!!!
AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)
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I feel like the majority do unless we’re talking about 2006 ice dance competition where it was whoever fell the least is the winner!!
I think back to Dorothy, Peggy, Kristi, Oksana, Tara, Sarah, Yuna, Adelina all skated with spark and magic which propelled them to the gold medal!
By 2018 zag technical level was at a whole different stratosphere!
Michelle and Irina had no spark, no Olympic magic while Sarah did. And no one tops my favorites more than Angela and Michelle!!
Sarah skated with freedom. Michelle and Irina skated with nerves.
Another example is on the men’s side in 2010 with Evan. Everyone b*tches and complains that he had no quad. But that program had spark and magic and fire and power and an Olympic command. Attack and no nerves.
I feel like the performances Michelle and Irina put out in Salt Lake City could win a world’s competition but not an Olympics competition. I am looking for something extra in the performance for an Olympic gold medal
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Sasha wasn’t exactly an unknown skater. She had competed on the Senior level prior to the Olympics, and there was a ton of hype. I remember an interview where she told reporters she wanted to pull a Tara, or something like that. She had more hype than Sarah Hughes at these Olympics and a bigger attitude to go along with it.
I’ve always maintained that had Kwan skated clean, she would’ve won. Even skating clean and “free” as Sarah did, I would’ve put a clean Kwan in 1st, even if it was an uninspired skate.
