ISU to propose expansion of Worlds fields; 2020 Worlds unlikely to be rescheduled

[clairecloutier]

New Phil Hersh article with latest info from the ISU:

Update: ISU Congress postponed to 2021, decision upcoming on rescheduling 2020 figure skating worlds (very likely, "no”), plus my exclusive info on bigger future worlds — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

Coronavirus-2020 World Figure Skating-2020 Olympics-figure skating

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

I think the proposed expansion of Worlds fields is very interesting. It would seem to represent a sudden change in policy, as compared to what they've been doing the last few seasons, with raising technical minimums, etc.

 

[Vagabond]

Under the new proposal, the total number of entries would be 54 in singles, 32 in pairs and 40 in dance.

So few?!

 

[just tuned in]

New Phil Hersh article with latest info from the ISU:

Update: ISU Congress postponed to 2021, decision upcoming on rescheduling 2020 figure skating worlds (very likely, "no”), plus my exclusive info on bigger future worlds — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

Coronavirus-2020 World Figure Skating-2020 Olympics-figure skating

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

Claire, thank you for sharing this article.

 

[muffinplus]

More entries per country would have been good? Maybe 4 max?

 

[tony]

Stupid. Basically sending skaters who really don’t have a shot to make it (to the end) into a qualifying round early in the week that most likely won’t even be televised. It’s also making some skaters compete 3 times within the week versus other top ‘well-established’ skaters only competing twice. I know they did it similarly before (Kozuka having to do the qualifying round before winning silver in 2011 as an example), but it needs to be more balanced than this.

They can have a pre-Worlds qualifying event that establishes the remainder of the 36-athlete field (in singles) and do exactly the same thing. I’m wondering if there is pressure from the IOC or some other sports body saying all nations need to be represented fairly/equally or whatever wording they are using now.

ETA- I know I sound grumpy with this, but I think there is a lot to like about technical minimums. It gives skaters something to work towards, and probably gives them an extra umph in practice to increase their skill levels. In the past, nations were skaters sent to Worlds that weren’t even attempting triple jumps- yet they’d get sent year after year. Experience is great, sure. But having a technical minimum makes you actually have to work for it.

 

[clairecloutier]

More entries per country would have been good? Maybe 4 max?

That favors the traditional big countries in skating. I think the idea here is the opposite, to encourage participation of more countries.

I would be very surprised if they ever increase the 3-per-country allowance.

 

[muffinplus]

That favors the traditional big countries in skating. I think the idea here is the opposite, to encourage participation of more countries.

I would be very surprised if they ever increase the 3-per-country allowance.

Nothing wrong with that, if they expand the entry list as well. Maybe make it hard to get 4 spots (placement sum must be really low) vs 3

 

[tony]

I’ve been saying for about 10 years that Grand Prix Final medalists should get automatic spots to Worlds and it shouldn’t count towards the quota. It’s an incentive for the early part of the season and makes the GPF even more competitive than it already is.

I think that’s a fair way to increase the entries without necessarily directly handing the powerhouse countries all the spots. In ladies singles right now, it obviously benefits only Russia, but it wasn’t always this way and it can always change quickly.

And this way, only three spots are added to the field rather than 20 or so and involving an additional segment of competition. You know the ISU will complain after 2 years that the qualifying rounds/extra days are too expensive to maintain.

 

[aftershocks]

"*At the 2020 worlds, there were to have been the following number of entries to the short program (number of countries in parentheses):

Women’s singles, 36 (29); men’s singles, 31 (25); pairs, 24 (15); dance, 34 (26). That would have been trimmed to top 24 for the singles free skates and 20 for the free skates in couples’ events.

*Under the new proposal, the total number of entries would be 54 in singles, 32 in pairs and 40 in dance."

So, does that mean 54 total for both men's and ladies' singles, or 54 each? I ask because the total under the previous set-up for men's and ladies' singles is 67. Therefore 54 total would indicate a reduction in numbers of entries for each singles category.

 

[tony]

"*At the 2020 worlds, there were to have been the following number of entries to the short program (number of countries in parentheses):

Women’s singles, 36 (29); men’s singles, 31 (25); pairs, 24 (15); dance, 34 (26). That would have been trimmed to top 24 for the singles free skates and 20 for the free skates in couples’ events.

*Under the new proposal, the total number of entries would be 54 in singles, 32 in pairs and 40 in dance."

So, does that mean 54 total for both men's and ladies' singles, or 54 each? I ask because the total under the previous set-up for men's and ladies' singles is 67. Therefore 54 total would indicate a reduction in numbers of entries for each singles category.

Seeing how pairs and dance fields would be going up, why would you think it was anything but 54 in each discipline?

*In this new proposal, there would be 24 direct entries to a 36-skater short program field in singles, 16 of 24 in pairs and 20 of 30 in dance. The remainder would come from order of finish in the qualifying round.

 

[aftershocks]

More entries per country would have been good? Maybe 4 max?

This would work for countries with expansive depth, but how would that work overall competitively. These are questions it isn't clear that the ISU has spent much time trying to work out. In fact, the ISU meetings historically are usually an exercise in competing and conflicting interests that often lead to standoffs and delays in decisionmaking.

It's looking like this world health crisis is going to force serious rethinking and dramatic changes that the ISU and feds have preferred to keep their heads stuck in the sand regarding. Change is afoot and it's been needed for quite awhile! But I hope it will end up being fair, well-considered, and beneficial change, particularly for the athletes.

 

[aftershocks]

Seeing how pairs and dance fields would be going up, why would you think it was anything but 54 in each discipline?

Yes, of course. But the way Hersh phrases it is definitely suspect, and begs questioning.

Thank you, though @Tony Wheeler! It's fun engaging with you, as always. Hope you're doing well.

This is going to be an adventure for sure, with a lot of moving parts to be worked out. For example, deciding where the cutoff is for those who will have to compete in a qualifying round. At least all skaters won't have to. Perhaps minimums will be employed to decide.

 

[just tuned in]

I’ve been saying for about 10 years that Grand Prix Final medalists should get automatic spots to Worlds and it shouldn’t count towards the quota. It’s an incentive for the early part of the season and makes the GPF even more competitive than it already is.

I think that’s a fair way to increase the entries without necessarily directly handing the powerhouse countries all the spots. In ladies singles right now, it obviously benefits only Russia, but it wasn’t always this way and it can always change quickly.

And this way, only three spots are added to the field rather than 20 or so and involving an additional segment of competition. You know the ISU will complain after 2 years that the qualifying rounds/extra days are too expensive to maintain.

Maybe it would be nice to have a separate competition for the lower-TES athletes from countries that normally do not get to participate. In general, I am in favor of TES, but some skaters can do beautiful (or voidy) programs with just double jumps.

ETA: Wait, these exist right? Senior B?

 

[tony]

Yes, of course. But the way Hersh phrases it is definitely suspect, and begs questioning.

Thank you, though @Tony Wheeler! It's fun engaging with you, as always. Hope you're doing well.

The bullet-point two below the one you quoted (the one I’ve quoted in my post) establishes that the short program would start with 36 skaters. Can’t do than in a 27-person field.

 

[aftershocks]

The bullet-point two below the one you quoted (the one I’ve quoted in my post) establishes that the short program would start with 36 skaters. Can’t do than in a 27-person field.

You're smarter than me about these things. Plus, I'm sleep-deprived and I should have read the whole way through I suppose before asking questions. Math isn't my strong suit either.

So apparently, the formal announcement will soon be made about 2020 Worlds gone bye-bye for good. This way skaters can focus their attention fully on new beginnings that will hopefully involve being able to start training again in some capacity.

 

[tony]

Maybe it would be nice to have a separate competition for the lower-TES athletes from countries that normally do not get to participate. In general, I am in favor of TES, but some skaters can do beautiful (or voidy) programs with just double jumps.

ETA: Wait, these exist right? Senior B?

Absolutely. But the potential ‘beautiful programs’ we speak of are not even likely to be televised, and will add extra days to an already non-stop week that audiences may favor skipping. A qualifying round of ‘half of the field’ is a good extra 5 hours each for the men and ladies.

I’m all for experimental competitions that shift the weight/requirements of the technical and presentation sides. But sending an additional 23 nations to Worlds (if using the men’s event from this year versus the proposal) seems like a lot of unnecessarily spent money that could go into other experiments.

 

[aftershocks]

ETA: Wait, these exist right? Senior B?

These days Senior Bs are seemingly mainly utilized as tune-ups for top level skaters. That needs to be re-thought as well.

 

[Bellanca]

Stupid. Basically sending skaters who really don’t have a shot to make it (to the end) into a qualifying round early in the week that most likely won’t even be televised. It’s also making some skaters compete 3 times within the week versus other top ‘well-established’ skaters only competing twice. I know they did it similarly before (Kozuka having to do the qualifying round before winning silver in 2011 as an example), but it needs to be more balanced than this.

Agreed. Eta: show. Evidently, someone has too much time on their hands to be kicking around nonsensical , again.

 

[Jeschke]

I’ve been saying for about 10 years that Grand Prix Final medalists should get automatic spots to Worlds and it shouldn’t count towards the quota. It’s an incentive for the early part of the season and makes the GPF even more competitive than it already is.

I think that’s a fair way to increase the entries without necessarily directly handing the powerhouse countries all the spots. In ladies singles right now, it obviously benefits only Russia, but it wasn’t always this way and it can always change quickly.

And this way, only three spots are added to the field rather than 20 or so and involving an additional segment of competition. You know the ISU will complain after 2 years that the qualifying rounds/extra days are too expensive to maintain.

I can only double this.
It works perfectly in athletics for example, where the diamond league finale winner gets a wild card for worlds in his/her discipline.

 

[MacMadame]

Absolutely. But the potential ‘beautiful programs’ we speak of are not even likely to be televised

I don't understand this part of your argument. First of all, most of the competitors at Worlds don't get televised already. But the streaming services continue to stream everybody. So the die-hard fans will see all the programs and the tv-only fans will continue to see what they've always seen.

 

[zigzig]

I like cheering on skaters from less influential countries without a skating tradition, even when they suck. But yeah, letting some rando who can't even do a double lutz compete in Worlds when a Russian girl with a 7 triple long program gets shut out feels wrong. I like the idea of GPF medalists getting an automatic berth irrespective of country quotas or maybe doing something score-based to allow more than 3 entries from certain countries. As for qualifying rounds I think they should just let people who've achieved a certain score during the season bypass that. But I still like the idea of letting more countries participate to a certain extent.

 

[Dobre]

Would this or would this not get the two Spanish ice dance teams in?

#what really matters here

 

[Vagabond]

I like cheering on skaters from less influential countries without a skating tradition, even when they suck. But yeah, letting some rando who can't even do a double lutz compete in Worlds when a Russian girl with a 7 triple long program gets shut out feels wrong.

A seven-triple free skate won't necessarily get her into Russian Nationals these days, so she can hardly complain if she doesn't get to go to Worlds either.

 

[barbarafan]

I feel they should expand the field for 2021 due to the cancelled worlds. All people who were going to worlds this yr. should be able to go (unless they have retired or are now injured) then others w/qualifying SB's should be added re: big improvements,could have been injured this yr. now aged out etc.

 

[tony]

I don't understand this part of your argument. First of all, most of the competitors at Worlds don't get televised already. But the streaming services continue to stream everybody. So the die-hard fans will see all the programs and the tv-only fans will continue to see what they've always seen.

I’m clumping tv/streaming as most people now stream through their televisions- whether it be NBC Sports or Netflix or Hulu or whatever. If you have a smart TV, there’s not much reason to stream on a phone or tablet.

Even when streaming services were airing all competitors in the short/long programs (I know for example I watched the entire 2010 Worlds on Universal Sports online or whatever it was called), I don’t believe ISU or any other outlet has ever aired a full qualifying round. 2011 and 2012 preliminary rounds included AFAIK. Even way back when, Eurosport maybe once in history showed an entire segment of a ladies qualifying round during the 1999-2006 days.

Sure, now that the ISU has their network and they have been streaming much more than in the past, it’s a possibility. But it still doesn’t cancel the fact that these skaters have little to no chance to make it into the championship round and that the audience is very likely to be much smaller during early-week segments. I get it. We here are FSU are die-hards and we will (and I do personally) watch everyone.

But that ties in to my point- we do now see almost every competition streamed in full. We aren’t missing out on ever seeing some skaters like we were in an earlier decade. Worlds is not our only chance (or two or three or four chances) to see a skater/team during the year like it maybe would’ve been up until 2005 or so. The die-hards will know how to see other performances of said skaters and/or watch the competitions they are in.

 

[Bellanca]

It’s irresponsible for an organization that has an ongoing financial challenge. Still, if they’re looking to make improvements, I would like to see them think outside the box a little more rather than just merely expanding the field. It doesn’t enhance the sport so much as crowding the disciplines and further alienates the fans who are not die-hards.

Die-hards will usually support anything that provides more skating (I’m one), but then we risk experiencing quantity without quality issues. There, I said it - and I am not trying to be cruel at all. So please do not misunderstand, but there should be a limit to something that doesn’t necessarily advance the sport.

I don’t see how this brings in more fans, a problem for many years now. This expansion will not encourage fans (even in the short-term) returning to a sport they’ve already abandoned in droves. It’s excellent for the die-hard fan and the skater, but they would also like to experience a full house at all competitions and a broader, more receptive audience, etc. Adding more to the mix without viable change to attract more fan participation is still going to be a problem.

We’ve had posters here at FSU who’ve had excellent ideas over the years. Too bad the ISU, etc., are too complacent to listen and consider some of these suggestions or ideas.

 

[tony]

I feel they should expand the field for 2021 due to the cancelled worlds. All people who were going to worlds this yr. should be able to go (unless they have retired or are now injured) then others w/qualifying SB's should be added re: big improvements,could have been injured this yr. now aged out etc.

In theory that would be nice, to see a one-time larger field because of the cancellation. However, there’s just not a realistic way to do it. Russia with their three spots in every discipline might see 5 or 6 ‘improved’ skaters or teams (or 20 ladies). Where’s the cut-off? If you do three per nation, that’s giving a country like Canada two additional men but not giving the USA anything. It’s also opening up the potential for a HUGE set of competitors at Worlds, even more than we are talking now and there’s not even going to be a Congress before the event (most likely) to determine any new rules or an earlier qualifying round. The judges have had to sit through 50+ skater short programs and I don’t think any of them love it.

It’s a pre-Olympic Worlds with a lot at stake for that event so I think they just have to pull the numbers from 2020. If you have 6 Russian skaters competing and they all finish in the top 6, then what are the new rules for 2022 going to be regarding multiple entries? In this scenario, no other country would be able to attain 3 entries even though 2022 Olympics obviously won’t have 6 Russian entries (in one discipline) in the field.. I know someone is going to say remove their placements from the final results to determine the 2022 spots. Nah. It’s just not going to happen.

 

[Yuri]

Oh please, no more Qualifying Rounds! I do like the idea that Grand Prix medalists get an automatic bye to Worlds without counting against a country's allotment, as there are some countries deserving of 4, 5, or even 6 (Russian Ladies) spots. Maybe that would reduce the incentive for country shopping for marginal World level skaters.

I recognize that skating is different than professional golf with the requirements of a season of programs, especially in ice dance, but I am disappointed to see that Hersh believes there is less than a 10% chance of rescheduling Worlds. Since not many can train anyway, it seems like the ISU can wait until May or even June prior to making a final call to see how things go.

 

[Tinami Amori]

I could not find the answer to my question in the text, so let me ask. Will the top notch skaters (GPF medalists, leading countries nationals medalists, season's top scores holders) will have to go through qualifications round?

In tennis players who are seeded, given a wild-card, or ranked up to a certain order number do not have to play in qualifications... that's why i am asking.

 

[skatingguy]

I could not find the answer to my question in the text, so let me ask. Will the top notch skaters (GPF medalists, leading countries nationals medalists, season's top scores holders) will have to go through qualifications round?

In tennis players who are seeded, given a wild-card, or ranked up to a certain order number do not have to play in qualifications... that's why i am asking.

I think this is the answer you're looking.

*In this new proposal, there would be 24 direct entries to a 36-skater short program field in singles, 16 of 24 in pairs and 20 of 30 in dance. The remainder would come from order of finish in the qualifying round.