U.S. Ladies [#28]: Achieving 2020 Vision

[Debbie S]

There were changes this season to preclude the young'ins from USN. They earn a spot at the camp after Championships week, as do the athletes in consideration for JW. I am just wondering if selection will be different?

By "young'ins", I assume you mean the Juv-Novice skaters? I doubt any of them would be in consideration for JW, so I don't think the timing of their camp matters. The top 2 Novices at each Sectional are competing at Nats in Junior. Last year, it was a relatively small group invited to JW camp (and only singles skaters) - I think 6 men and 6 ladies? And it was the weekend after Nats, I think 2 or 3 days. It would be a lot for a skater to attend the JW camp and then go to 4CC (not to mention switching back and forth between Jr and Sr programs), so I'm hoping that skaters would be spared that.

I hope USFS will try to give as many skaters as possible a post-Nats assignment - if not 4CC or JW, then Challenge Cup or one of the other winter/spring comps.

 

[Dobre]

Well, last year, Ting was named to 4CC and also attended the JW camp. Which I hope TPTB realized was exhausting and counterproductive and wouldn't do again.

Since both Ting and Tomoki went to both 4CC and Junior Worlds and both medaled at Junior Worlds last season, plus--if I recall correctly--Tomoki scored well enough at 4CCs to finally earn his guaranteed berth on the GP, I don't follow your logic that it was counterproductive. He needed to go to both, really, I think. He needed the extra element in a senior men's program to get that SB score. And, of course, he proved capable of winning the title at Junior Worlds. Ting medaled at Junior Worlds--the second event. I would say that 4CCs was an important growing experience for her leading up to that opportunity. At 4CCs, she gave up on the performance and it really hurt her score. At Junior Worlds, she really appeared to have learned from that experience and continued to perform throughout.

Japan clearly thinks it is worth sending their top athletes to both, as they assigned Shoma to both the year he won Junior Worlds and they have assigned Yuma to both now. I realize that's not an apples to apples comparison travel-wise this season, but still it is an acknowledgment that 4CCs can really help a top junior athlete to make a successful transition.

 

[Sylvia]

... I don't follow your logic that it was counterproductive.

I read Debbie's post to mean that the the timing of the JW camp right before 4CC last year was counterproductive (which I happen to agree with).

 

[Dobre]

I read Debbie's post to mean that the the timing of the JW camp right before 4CC last year was counterproductive (which I happen to agree with).

It was a hard turnaround, for sure. So perhaps, with an athlete that has results strong enough to have earned a berth at 4CCs, give them a bye through the camp? What do you think they might do differently, @Debbie?

 

[concorde]

It was a hard turnaround, for sure. So perhaps, with an athlete that has results strong enough to have earned a berth at 4CCs, give them a bye through the camp? What do you think they might do differently, @Debbie?

But I thought one of the purposes of the camp was to select the teams. Wasn't it like there were 6 men and women and from those 6, they selected both the Worlds and JW teams. If that is the case, then they could not skip the camp.

 

[Jammers]

But I thought one of the purposes of the camp was to select the teams. Wasn't it like there were 6 men and women and from those 6, they selected both the Worlds and JW teams. If that is the case, then they could not skip the camp.

Yeah but for the Ladies it was a no brainer that Ting and Hanna were going to be the team going to JW after finishing 4th and 5th as Seniors at Nationals.

 

[carriecmu0503]

But I thought one of the purposes of the camp was to select the teams. Wasn't it like there were 6 men and women and from those 6, they selected both the Worlds and JW teams. If that is the case, then they could not skip the camp.

The world team was not selected at the camp. The camp was only to select the JW team. There has never been a selection camp to select the world team; the world team is always named directly after nationals.

 

[Dobre]

But I thought one of the purposes of the camp was to select the teams. Wasn't it like there were 6 men and women and from those 6, they selected both the Worlds and JW teams. If that is the case, then they could not skip the camp.

The camp was used for the Junior World team last season, but it goes without saying that the rules and qualification process have been changed many times in the past and could be so again. USFS could name an athlete with a particularly strong performance at Nationals straight onto both teams, as they have done in the past. I would guess not this season though--that such a rule change would be announced first. (Though, goodness knows, there were so many rule changes this season that I am not up to speed on all of them). Is the planned timing for the selection camp the same in this year's schedule as last season?

 

[concorde]

Supposedly the developmental camps meet just after Nationals e

The world team was not selected at the camp. The camp was only to select the JW team. There has never been a selection camp to select the world team; the world team is always named directly after nationals.

That was why I never understood why they even bothered to hold the camp.

 

[concorde]

Yeah but for the Ladies it was a no brainer that Ting and Hanna were going to be the team going to JW after finishing 4th and 5th as Seniors at Nationals.

So why did they have the camp?

 

[Debbie S]

So why did they have the camp?

Because it was a new USFS policy, passed at GC the spring before. No one knew how the season or Nats results would shake out. In past years, there's usually been debate over which singles skaters will be named, b/c the pool of eligible skaters contains those at both the Junior and Senior levels. I'm guessing USFS decided it was best to have all those under consideration come together and skate their Junior programs. Last year, the team was pretty much a given for both men's and ladies, given the fall season and Nats, but in other years, it might not be.

I personally feel that the camp is unnecessary, or at least badly timed (week after Nats).

 

[haribobo]

This year it won't be so clear cut as last year- Ting withdrew from Nationals with an injury and Hanna has been out most of the season. Alysa of course should be named but after that there are so many options- Emily Zhang, Gabriella Izzo, Starr Andrews, Emilia Murdock, and Sarah Jung in seniors and whoever places top 2 in juniors. A camp could be helpful.

 

[hoptoad]

IDK, depending how it's run, it could play a role as a true developmental camp, as the name suggests.

Many years we argue here over the JW team, since it's hard to compare Juniors and Seniors. A skater may see it as an accomplishment to be invited to the camp, and a good experience, even if they are a long shot for that year's JW team.

Along similar lines, now that novices no longer have their own competition at nationals, has anything replaced the training that they used to give the novice competitors? That used to have some valuable elements, like media training, practice judging, etc.

 

[Debbie S]

Along similar lines, now that novices no longer have their own competition at nationals, has anything replaced the training that they used to give the novice competitors? That used to have some valuable elements, like media training, practice judging, etc.

There is a training camp right after Nats, at a local rink in the area, for the top 4 finishers (top 9 in dance and pairs) at each Sectional in Juv-Novice. I assume the camp will include activities similar to those that were previously offered at Nats.

 

[jlai]

IDK, depending how it's run, it could play a role as a true developmental camp, as the name suggests.

That is what I thought it was for.
I don't know if it is because of this camp, though I noticed the US team doing better in recent years the last couple years, at least in singles.

 

[Firedancer]

Players Tribune interview with Gracie:
https://www.instagram.com/tv/B6mEay1oA7M/?igshid=341mrntsdp6d

 

[Skibean]

So powerful. Welcome back Gracie Gold. What a great role model. I’ll be cheering for you.

 

[BittyBug]

Wow. My heart aches for Gracie for what she’s been through, but I am so impressed at her willingness to be open about her struggles. Eating disorders require secrecy. That’s their power over their victims - the shame. By speaking out she is vanquishing those demons and placing herself on a path to recovery, and possibly helping others who may see themselves in her story.

She is a very brave and emotionally intelligent young woman, and I hope her experience in Greensboro is healing.

 

[DimaToe]

So to me and I’m guessing most of us the team for senior worlds seems obvious. Bell and Tennell, what to me seems like the biggest question is who will join Liu on the jr worlds team, seems like the U.S. has more entries than needed. Aside from Liu or others that have “been there done that” like Andrews I don’t see anybody else that could challenge for top 10.

 

[Sylvia]

what to me seems like the biggest question is who will join Liu on the jr worlds team, seems like the U.S. has more entries than needed. Aside from Liu or others that have “been there done that” like Andrews I don’t see anybody else that could challenge for top 10.

That's why Nationals will be very interesting, as well as the Jr. Worlds camp afterwards.

SENIOR at 2020 Nationals with the JW minimums already (6):
Alysa Liu 208.10 (Lake Placid JGP)
Starr Andrews 181.18 (CS Lombardia Trophy); 161.53 (Golden Spin JR)
Gabriella Izzo 169.75 (CS Asian Open Trophy)
Hanna Harrell 160.50 (JGP France)
Emilia Murdock 148.95 (JGP Lake Placid)
Sarah Jung 148.81 (JGP Croatia)

JUNIOR at 2020 Nationals with the JW minimums already (6):
Isabelle Inthisone 167.47 (JGP Italy)
Kate Wang 164.59 (JGP Russia)
Lindsay Thorngren 158.09 (JGP Poland)
Jessica Lin 148.35 (JGP Lake Placid)
Calista Choi 148.19 (JGP France)
Elsa Cheng 144.13 (Golden Spin) - she scored 158.68 (51.29 SP, 107.39 FS) to win Novice at Mids

Top 5 Senior Sectional scores (ISU Junior age-eligible):
*Emily Zhang, SC of Wilmington 64.49 (1) 133.39 (1) 197.88 E1 - (ETA) assigned to Mentor Torun Cup in SR before Nationals; this would be her Team USA debut
Sarah Jung, Columbia FSC (MD) 62.25 (4) 120.18 (2) 182.43 E2
*Caitlin Ha, Glacier Falls FSC 57.15 (2) 117.30 (1) 174.45 P1 - not listed in ISP
Emilia Murdock, SC of San Francisco 55.79 (3) 100.09 (3) P3 155.88
*Alyssa Rich, Dallas FSC 56.26 (3) 97.18 (4) 153.44 M3 - not listed in ISP

Top 5 Junior Sectional scores:
Lindsay Thorngren, Ice House Of New Jersey FSC 50.86 (2) 119.18 (1) 170.04 E1
Calista Choi, Skokie Valley SC 63.37 (1) 100.20 (3) 163.57 M1
Isabelle Inthisone, DuPage FSC 57.60 (2) 101.63 (2) 159.23 M2
*Mia Eckels, White Rose FSC 51.52 (1) 102.19 (2) 153.71 E2 - not listed in ISP
*Ellen Slavicek, Los Angeles FSC 52.25 (1) 101.35 (1) 153.60 P1 - listed in ISP

* = have not yet competed internationally for USA in order to get ISU Junior minimum scores

 

[TanithandBenFan]

An excellent interview/feature done with Gracie by The Players' Tribune

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[Vagabond]

So to me and I’m guessing most of us the team for senior worlds seems obvious. Bell and Tennell, what to me seems like the biggest question is who will join Liu on the jr worlds team, seems like the U.S. has more entries than needed. Aside from Liu or others that have “been there done that” like Andrews I don’t see anybody else that could challenge for top 10.

What do you mean by "needed"?

Last season's tenth place finisher at World Juniors had a Total Score of 158.52. (There was a large gap between ninth and tenth.) If that's what will take this season, then Sylvia's post shows that there are several who not only could challenge for the Top 10 but have already demonstrated that they can earn the required score.

But even if the U.S. had just three age-eligible competitors with the TES minimums, none of whom had a realistic shot at making the top ten, there would be valid reasons for sending all of them.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Amber will have to put together two clean programs at Nationals, because she doesn't have much of a BOW to back her up.

medaling at her B, and strong GP placements, including 3rd place in the SP???

Unless BOW isn't body of work, then what you talkin about Willis?

BTW Im back from Germany!!!!!!!

 

[haribobo]

I think the other 2 US skaters will be capable of top 10 but its not assured by any means. Using the SB scores of likely competitors (with admittedy some being senior events), you end up with a top ten of Valieva, Sinitsyna, Alysa, Haein, Kurakova, Usacheva, Seoyeong Wi, Starr, Tomoe, and Tornaghi (SB 175). The next highest SB after Starr (excluding Ting) is Izzo at 169. Other factors include Kawabe (163), Ruiter (159), Urushadze (158), Kiibus (166), Levushkina (161).

 

[DimaToe]

What do you mean by "needed"?

Last season's tenth place finisher at World Juniors had a Total Score of 158.52. (There was a large gap between ninth and tenth.) If that's what will take this season, then Sylvia's post shows that there are several who not only could challenge for the Top 10 but have already demonstrated that they can earn the required score.

But even if the U.S. had just three age-eligible competitors with the TES minimums, none of whom had a realistic shot at making the top ten, there would be valid reasons for sending all of them.

Last season isn’t relevant to this season. I meant “needed” as in the depth is not there for the U.S.

 

[euterpe]

Body of Work includes the previous season as well as the current one.

While Bradie and Mariah have had medals from previous year's GPs as well as this season's, Amber does not have a GP medal, having finished 6th and 7th in the GP this year, and 10th the previous year.

Yes, Amber won bronze at her Challenger event---it was the US International Challenge and the top skaters were Young You and Satoko Miyahara. Ting Cui was returning from injury (and BTW was injured again thereafter). But Amber landed just 4 clean triples in the FS, similar to what she did at her GPs.

Mariah won her Challenger event this season and was 3rd at last season's event. Bradie was 2nd at Warsaw this year and won both her Challengers last season.

At Nationals, both Bradie and Mariah were on the podium last season, and Bradie won the previous season (Mariah was 5th in 2018). Amber was 7th and 8th at her last two Nationals.

While Bradie and Mariah are 10th and 12th on the current SB list with 216.4 and 213.89, Amber is 31st with 186.28.
On last season's final list, Bradie was 4th with 225.64 and Mariah was 14th with 208.07; Amber was 64th with 166.25.

My point was that while Bradie and Mariah have been performing consistently well over the past two seasons, Amber has so far been doing better than she did last year, but she has to go on improving, including a top 5 or 6 finish at US Nationals 2020 and continue that improvement into next season. Then for 2021 Nationals, she will have put together a more impressive BOW.

 

[Vagabond]

I meant “needed” as in the depth is not there for the U.S.

So what?

 

[DimaToe]

This really would be a good time for Courtney Hicks to skate well at nationals. Shake things up.

 

[DimaToe]

So what?

So the depth isn’t there to warrant a 3rd spot this season? We can each have our own opinions. If you can’t think of an actual good reply then let it go...

 

[Vagabond]

So the depth isn’t there to warrant a 3rd spot this season? We can each have our own opinions. If you can’t think of an actual good reply then let it go...

You are the one who hasn't replied with anything substantive. You suggest that USFS shouldn't use the spots even though it has quite a few age-eligible skaters with the TES minimums, and I do not understand your thinking on this.