From Russia with Love [#33]: Summer 2019

[Bigbird]

It was interesting to hear Ruslan’s perspective on training in one of the big crowded centres. I heard a lot in general at the time that they struggled to adjust to the hands off approach and lack of individual attention when they were used to having every aspect monitored closely by their coach.

In retrospect such an environment would not have suited Elena Illinykh at all as she was a skater that needed a lot of external motivation and monitoring. As we know she struggled to self motivate to maintain a high level while at Novi.

I can imagine it was super easy to fall through the cracks at Novi - and I imagine it’s the same for Gadbois. If you can’t independently motivate you’ll just get over run and forgotten.

But I can imagine that other skaters would enjoy the autonomy and independence. I guess there’s a lid for every pot.

The politics within ice dancing is real. If a coach isn't interested, ultimately neither will the Federation. Going to Igor was the biggest mistake of I/Z's career, an absolute waste of time. I think she was depressed and just exhausted by it all.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Some Europeans think American schools are too chaotic, some Americans look at the rote learning and dutiful memorization in European and Asian schools and say blech, that’s not learning to think for yourself. Cultural inheritance and habits....

Oh, it has nothing to do with "individualism" or "thinking vs not thinking for yourself"... It has to do with how much one wants to be involved in the "management" in addition to "what he/she has to do in a given venue"...

• Some people (wealthy, secure, individualistic) hire an interior designer and say "do your best, arrange my house"; and some want to be involved in every detail, including which subcontractor will do what element.
• Some people want an "all inclusive hotel vacation" or ship-cruise where all is pre-arranged, and some want to plan every hotel, every stop, every restaurant, every museum/attraction; plan their own route, to the cross street..
• Some people make their own plans for health maintenance, schedule appointments, look up doctors, read their refs, create a schedule, get 2nd opinions, keep their own track of which doctor needs to be seen and when..... and some, who are very individualistic, like me for example, like "Kaiser plan" - they tell what you need to check, when, by which specialist, and set up your health care plan, where they send you notes when you are to see what doctor, and when to do follow up.

I am very individualistic.... with interior design i am "a control freak", with travel - i do every thing myself, but with health issues - let the professionals do their stuff (i don't care to learn much about medical issues); and with sports - i chose to have SPECIALIST tell me when/how/how much to train.... and i do prefer "russian/asian" style... It's my choice as an individualistic person - to decide when to "manage" or when to let others "manage"....

 

[babayaga]

Med has also said that she appreciates having more freedom with Orser than she did with Eteri. Someone else making the same transition might feel abandoned by a more hands-off coach. It’s very individual.

The Soviet system in general valued control, the North American individualism and self-reliance. It’s not surprising that these values would apply to a hierarchical relationship like that of skaters and a coach. Some Europeans think American schools are too chaotic, some Americans look at the rote learning and dutiful memorization in European and Asian schools and say blech, that’s not learning to think for yourself. Cultural inheritance and habits....

But Evgenia also struggled at first. Remember, Orser said in one of his interviews that Evgenia kept asking for his attention after her paid time was over and that made other skaters at the rink complain?

As for Ruslan, they returned from Igor in such a sad state, I was wondering what on earth was going on with their training. I am glad he talked a little about that. Zueva's approach seems to be very different (from Sinitsina interview), which now explains to me why skaters chose her over Igor during their split.

 

[analia]

If you want a kid to succeed you probably want to go the Russian way, but the chance of burnout is high. The American way, burnout rate is lower, cost is much higher, and you might never know whether you are good enough to make it all the way there. In the long run I think the younger generation of Russian coaches aren't as stubborn as it used to be, and with their goal instead of fee oriented system they will have the edge going forward.

 

[starrynight]

I imagine the big difference is funding levels?

I expect that the reality is that North American coaching centres have to be fee orientated.

Being goal orientated probably only really works when it is a training environment of one nation and it doesn’t matter who wins, who is favoured or who is ditched provided the nation gets medals. Lots of state funding helps here too.

When you train a lot of athletes from different federations who are all paying the same hourly rate (often from their own personal pockets) for the services of the coach, it’s different and a more equal approach is necessary. If you tried a ‘goal oriented’ approach of say demoting a top skater of one fed to the junior group for underperforming there’d be an uproar and you’d probably lose the skater, the support of that fed and the coaching fees that go with it.

 

[Ka3sha]

To me it seems that to some point he indeed had problems with adapting to the North-american way of training, but his main problem was with Shpilband - as he stated, they simply didn't get along.
He enjoyed working with Fabian Bourzat, for example, and he also says that it's great that Angelika Krylova has an experience of working in the States and has different approach to coaching (in comparison with other Russian coaches). And he seems to be quite complimentary about North-American ice dancing school in general.

I didn't translate the whole interview, but in other excerpt he said more about financial side of their internship (that was supposed to be a full-time move at first) - that they paid around 10 000$ per month and after training in Russia it was quite a lot. Maybe he was expecting that for that amount of money they will work with Igor and not with Fabian, who did 80% of the work with them. IDK.

 

[starrynight]

From what I’ve heard anecdotally $10k a month is about standard for the top training centres where most of the training is done by assistant coaches.

Would training in Russia be any cheaper? Or is it just that the skaters don’t really see the expenses themselves set out on paper?

 

[barbarafan]

How so?



I do think that North American teams and other teams who are used to this kind of training environment are probably fine. It’s what they know. But it does seem a huge adjustment to Russian skaters who are used to something very different. I know everyone thinks Gadbois is the arrival of the Messiah but I imagine that a Russian team used to a completely different system would find challenges there too due to the size and the independence required to function there.

If I recall correctly, Viktoria Sinitsina said something similar about Canton too and preferred training in Russia.

If you mean they would be expected to leave their robotics at the door at Gadbois and reach deep to develop their own unique style then you are correct. Before they accept students they are carefully vetted and if they do not feel that there is great potential to grow and evolve they will not accept them. Students are not cash cows....they are potential works of art.

 

[PRlady]

Oh, it has nothing to do with "individualism" or "thinking vs not thinking for yourself"... It has to do with how much one wants to be involved in the "management" in addition to "what he/she has to do in a given venue"...

• Some people (wealthy, secure, individualistic) hire an interior designer and say "do your best, arrange my house"; and some want to be involved in every detail, including which subcontractor will do what element.
• Some people want an "all inclusive hotel vacation" or ship-cruise where all is pre-arranged, and some want to plan every hotel, every stop, every restaurant, every museum/attraction; plan their own route, to the cross street..
• Some people make their own plans for health maintenance, schedule appointments, look up doctors, read their refs, create a schedule, get 2nd opinions, keep their own track of which doctor needs to be seen and when..... and some, who are very individualistic, like me for example, like "Kaiser plan" - they tell what you need to check, when, by which specialist, and set up your health care plan, where they send you notes when you are to see what doctor, and when to do follow up.

I am very individualistic.... with interior design i am "a control freak", with travel - i do every thing myself, but with health issues - let the professionals do their stuff (i don't care to learn much about medical issues); and with sports - i chose to have SPECIALIST tell me when/how/how much to train.... and i do prefer "russian/asian" style... It's my choice as an individualistic person - to decide when to "manage" or when to let others "manage"....

It has something to do with individualism, a concept that Russia has not yet managed to ever inject into its governing at the macro level. But I take your point. I’m contemplating a kitchen remodel and although I know what I like aesthetically, the mechanics I will leave to a good contractor because I am clueless.

Ruslan sounds like a thoughtful guy whose career got derailed by injury and involuntary partner-switching. Had he stayed healthy and with Sinitsina, maybe they would be Russia #1 now. We’ll never know.

 

[rfisher]

One fascinating aspect by participating in a multicultural board such as FSU is learning about the cultural differences associated with figure skating. It would actually make an interesting anthropological thesis. Not only are there differences in training culture around the world (coaches have been very open about this in interviews), but the difficulty fans have in accepting the cultural differences. As is typical when cultural conflict is evident, everybody thinks their culture is the "right" one. I sort of wish I was teaching an intro class in cultural anthro again so I could use figure skating as an example. What is more interesting on a higher level, is the fact many fans think they are very culturally tolerant, but as anthropology has argued for the last 20 years, people, including anthropologists, really aren't that tolerant. I won't bore anyone with the theoretical models that support that argument, but I see it all over this board. I never particularly liked cultural anthropology (far preferred behavioral ecology and biological anthropology), but FSU presents a very interesting data set for someone who wanted to do a paper.

 

[zebraswan]

I don't agree that everyone thinks their culture is "the right one," or that there is only one "right one" and all others are inferior. I wouldn't trust anyone who thinks that way, either.

 

[rfisher]

I don't agree that everyone thinks their culture is "the right one," or that there is only one "right one" and all others are inferior. I wouldn't trust anyone who thinks that way, either.

Studies show people do think that. They may make an effort to accept the value of other cultural behavior, but, it is the default deep thought. Anthropology during the late 90s even argued that no one could really do a cultural anthropology study because of inherent bias and was anybody really an objective observer. Lots of studies. During the early 2000s, there was much attempt at trying to find a way around that problem (something that is blatantly obvious in late 19th century and early 20th century anthropology studies (see the problems with Margaret Mead and Marshall Sahlins)). Many wanted to throw their hands in the air and say the field was dead, but instead, most researchers decided to accept their own bias as real and find a way to work around it. That is the key. Accept your cultural bias. Acknowledge it. Then find a way to not let it be a hinderance. Many people prefer to think they have no cultural bias. Many people are in denial. There is no "right" culture, but that doesn't mean bias does not exist because it most certainly does and it's all over this small microcosm. Which is why I think this is an interesting dataset of cultural bias and acceptance.

 

[PRlady]

Sociologists know that in the US and elsewhere in the West, white Christian culture is so dominant that people in it just think they’re “normal” and everything else is exotic. Those of us outside it know that there are real mores and hierarchies and assumptions embedded in that culture just as in all the minority ones, but if you’re a white Christian, what you have is the default option and you don’t even realize you have a tribe. A fish doesn’t know he’s in water, as they say.

 

[starrynight]

Students are not cash cows....they are potential works of art.

Although at potentially $10k a month for each team and standing room only, I'm sure they are making some decent scratch lol.

 

[barbarafan]

Although at potentially $10k a month for each team and standing room only, I'm sure they are making some decent scratch lol.

1) where r u getting that figure from?
2) What do you mean standing room only? Do you have an actual count of their teams or r u just trying to be a smart a**ss. You prob. have heard of all their teams as they r all doing very well. There r a few startup teams.

 

[rfisher]

Sociologists know that in the US and elsewhere in the West, white Christian culture is so dominant that people in it just think they’re “normal” and everything else is exotic. Those of us outside it know that there are real mores and hierarchies and assumptions embedded in that culture just as in all the minority ones, but if you’re a white Christian, what you have is the default option and you don’t even realize you have a tribe. A fish doesn’t know he’s in water, as they say.

One major issue for sociologist/cultural anthropologist is accepting cultural practices the individual deems as harmful. The classic example is female genital mutilation. Certainly it is harmful to the women to whom this is done. Yet, if you look at the behavioral ecological reason for this deeply embedded practice, you can understand why it persists. (it has to do with socioeconomics.) Simply telling practitioners they are wrong will do nothing to change the practice. They aren't stupid. They don't need to be educated by those who hold a moral high ground. Changing the socioeconomic environment whereby the practice is no longer beneficial and becomes detrimental is how behavior evolves.

In figure skating, a similar analogy is training methods and diet. Clearly, eating disorders cause harm to the individual, yet they are not uncommon within the sport (all over the world) and there is a reason they persist. The fan community takes sides on training methodology and coaches. Both sides argue vehemently that they are right and the other wrong without taking an objective perspective as to why a harmful practice continues to exist. Objectivity outside your own cultural bias is difficult and takes concerted effort and also requires acceptance that each of us is inherently biased based on our native cultural ideals.

I will say, my many years on FSU has helped me to realize some of my own biases and change them. I still have plenty left to work on, but I'm much better at listening to others now. And, much better than I was after graduate school. I'm sure my professors in the anthropology department wouldn't be particularly thrilled to know I've learned more from an international skating board than I did in 4 years of graduate school.

 

[Hedwig]

I don't agree that everyone thinks their culture is "the right one," or that there is only one "right one" and all others are inferior. I wouldn't trust anyone who thinks that way, either.

I agree with this. And this is different than having a bias. Which of course everyone has. But having a bias is very different from thinking your culture is the best and only one.
Still we are very shaped by our upbringing and how we judge other cultures is also shaped by this. So cultures where great emphasis is given about their country and culture being the best are obviously struggling with this a bit more.

 

[Gris]

According to this official announcement (in Chinese), Medvedeva, Zabiiako / Enbert and Sinitsina / Katsalapov will be at Shanghai Trophy (Oct 3-5).

 

[irenemulindwairen]

If you mean they would be expected to leave their robotics at the door at Gadbois and reach deep to develop their own unique style then you are correct. Before they accept students they are carefully vetted and if they do not feel that there is great potential to grow and evolve they will not accept them. Students are not cash cows....they are potential works of art.

Absolutely.! Thank you for this comment

 

[PRlady]

One major issue for sociologist/cultural anthropologist is accepting cultural practices the individual deems as harmful. The classic example is female genital mutilation. Certainly it is harmful to the women to whom this is done. Yet, if you look at the behavioral ecological reason for this deeply embedded practice, you can understand why it persists. (it has to do with socioeconomics.) Simply telling practitioners they are wrong will do nothing to change the practice. They aren't stupid. They don't need to be educated by those who hold a moral high ground. Changing the socioeconomic environment whereby the practice is no longer beneficial and becomes detrimental is how behavior evolves.

In figure skating, a similar analogy is training methods and diet. Clearly, eating disorders cause harm to the individual, yet they are not uncommon within the sport (all over the world) and there is a reason they persist. The fan community takes sides on training methodology and coaches. Both sides argue vehemently that they are right and the other wrong without taking an objective perspective as to why a harmful practice continues to exist. Objectivity outside your own cultural bias is difficult and takes concerted effort and also requires acceptance that each of us is inherently biased based on our native cultural ideals.

I will say, my many years on FSU has helped me to realize some of my own biases and change them. I still have plenty left to work on, but I'm much better at listening to others now. And, much better than I was after graduate school. I'm sure my professors in the anthropology department wouldn't be particularly thrilled to know I've learned more from an international skating board than I did in 4 years of graduate school.

FSU is my focus group on dozens of issues. I’m a caricature of an inside-the-Beltway privileged liberal and this is one place I have to get experiences outside my own tribe. Because even my friends elsewhere more or less think and live like me.

As for changing biases, I publicly admit that on at least one major issue, agalsgiv was right and I was wrong. Took my new job for me up learn that.

 

[Tinami Amori]

Studies show people do think that. They may make an effort to accept the value of other cultural behavior, but, it is the default deep thought.

I think a lot of people (at least most that i know) think "my culture and ways are best for me; while i recognize that for others their culture and ways are best for them. let me live by my culture and you live by yours. i will not impose mine on you, and you don't impose yours on me". Unfortunately, especially in USA, that is not the issue. In USA many think that "their way is the best, and others should follow it". In Russia the "general attitude" is - leave us alone, we're the way we are, and not going to change; if you impose on us your values, we'll get bitchy and impose something on you (theoretically i mean, as an "attitude").

 

[quiqie]

...leave any foreign robotics at the door, and learn the Gadbois-specific signature style robotics in gradient, sure.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

If you mean they would be expected to leave their robotics at the door at Gadbois and reach deep to develop their own unique style then you are correct. Before they accept students they are carefully vetted and if they do not feel that there is great potential to grow and evolve they will not accept them. Students are not cash cows....they are potential works of art.

Thank you for this. I really needed this level of entertainment today.

I'm shocked to find out that everyone's Unique Style is so similar to P&C's though!

 

[Tinami Amori]

It has something to do with individualism, a concept that Russia has not yet managed to ever inject into its governing at the macro level. But I take your point. I’m contemplating a kitchen remodel and although I know what I like aesthetically, the mechanics I will leave to a good contractor because I am clueless.

"politics" of the country not always relate to how "individualistic" people are.

Russian politics is an issue on its own, and not always related to figure skating in Russia, as now top athletes make good money and have choices, to go with an "old system", "old but modified system", or "their own system". Plus there are many options how one can do sports, privately, through Federations' systems, a combination...

The country and system does not often matter. some very "individualistic" people, when go to the gym like to have a private training instructor who sets up a training plan for them and a dietitian who sets up healthy eating plan for them...... and some like to put their own training steps in the gym and research their own diet....

Basically some people, in certain aspects/issues/activities, like to have "all inclusive and pre-set" and some like to do pick and chose themselves. that's all... an individual choice.

 

[Dobre]

I think it is folly to make sweeping statements about everyone from any group when it comes to culture. There are many ways to be "othered" even when one comes from the dominant culture. And there are aspects of being othered that are inescapable even when one does not feel like one is from a "different" culture. There are many aspects of dominant culture that are also a huge part of minority culture. And there are so many aspects of culture that go completely unrecognized by us as we go about our daily lives. Until wham! Something comes up against it & you realize it. Or perhaps it creeps up on you more casually and you realize how much your world view has changed over time.

Time can be such a big part of it. Along with one's mindset, of course, and whether one is open to learning in the first place. But learning about other cultures requires meeting people or going places. Something that happens over time. It happens right here. And it happens gradually throughout our lives.

Often when I read comments that seem entirely blocked off from another point of view, I wonder where that writer's ideas will be ten or twenty years from now. And the reverse. I often wonder where someone's ideas might be if they had been born ten or twenty years later into a different culture. As culture is not only place-based but also time-based.

 

[oleada]

If you mean they would be expected to leave their robotics at the door at Gadbois and reach deep to develop their own unique style then you are correct. Before they accept students they are carefully vetted and if they do not feel that there is great potential to grow and evolve they will not accept them. Students are not cash cows....they are potential works of art.

Yes, I’m sure Marie France is doing this only out of the kindness of her heart and the art and not to support herself at all

 

[CaliSteve]

From what I’ve heard anecdotally $10k a month is about standard for the top training centres where most of the training is done by assistant coaches.

Would training in Russia be any cheaper? Or is it just that the skaters don’t really see the expenses themselves set out on paper?

For Ice Dancing and Pairs?

 

[barbarafan]

Thank you for this. I really needed this level of entertainment today.

I'm shocked to find out that everyone's Unique Style is so similar to P&C's though!

Which of the Gaddbois teams are so similiar to P&C.

 

[starrynight]

For Ice Dancing and Pairs?

When I read that it cost Elena/Ruslan $10k a month to train at Novi, it reminded me that I had heard that figure mentioned somewhere in relation to the expense of training at Gadbois (presumably at that high World level). As I said, anecdotally only and it would need to be backed up by someone else who knows. It makes me think that is probably standard expenses of that level of elite ice dance training if that's what Elena and Ruslan also paid at Novi. And makes sense when you consider how much ice time/coaching time costs.

Although as I understand it from interviews I've read, Gadbois keeps strict time sheets of 15 minute or so slots and every team uses only as much coaching time as they can afford to pay. If teams can't afford more time with the coaches, they just pay for ice time and train individually. Teams with less financial backing there pay for less coaching time and train less/train by themselves the rest of the time. So their costs would be less I'd presume. I read that the strict time/costs structure of Gadbois is very beneficial to self-funded skaters as they know exactly how much they need to pay on an ongoing basis and aren't just trained and subsequently invoiced like some other centres do. (For example, like being kept on the ice for longer to train something and then at the end of the month getting an invoice for an hour of extra time that you didn't know you were going to have to pay).

I expect this is very different to the Russian system, where I've heard stories of coaches not coming into the rink and skaters just going home. lol I imagine that needing to pay for everything in strict time slots changes everything completely.

Also say at Sambo 70, I understand they mostly use group training sessions where everyone gets out on the ice together and the coaches just do what they need to do. That maybe would not work as well if each student was paying by the 15minute slot. There would need be a strict way of enforcing the equal attention to make the money worth it and fair for each skater/parent.

2) What do you mean standing room only? Do you have an actual count of their teams or r u just trying to be a smart a**ss. You prob. have heard of all their teams as they r all doing very well. There r a few startup teams.

Standing room only is a phrase which means that something is so full that all the chairs are gone and everyone else has to stand up.

But, anyway, how we got onto this conversation was about the Russian vs North American way of managing training centres and the requirement to be able to cope/thrive under individualism in big full North American training camps.

In a training environment where every day is broken down into 15 minute slots and everyone gets their paid time and not a second more or second less, miss the slot and too bad, it's very very different to the Russian way. Couldn't be more different really.

 

[Dobre]

Which of the Gaddbois teams are so similiar to P&C.

Well Hawayek & Baker's exact same footwork sequence & In This Shirt selection would be right at the top of my list packaging-wise from last season. (Honestly, the first several notes of that song pretty much scream To Build a Home).

Probably Saturday Night Fever won't feel that way, though.