Royalty Thread #8.....A Pregnant Pause

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mag

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Because they are rumor mills.

The bit you quoted from the article is unsourced speculation artfully placed immediately after the text of an official statement from Buckingham Palace to suggest to the unquestioning that what Town and Country and others are reporting about "an announcement when the Duchess has gone into labor" is also part of the official statment, which it clearly is not.

Well I hope it is just speculation and they don’t announce anything.
 

mag

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A New York Times article about the increasingly tense relationship between the press and the Sussexes: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/...tion=click&module=Top Stories&pgtype=Homepage

Interesting article. I do wish people would distinguish between the Royal press Corp. and the papperazzi. I also wish it was mentioned that Diana died because her driver was drunk, speeding through Paris on a dark rainy night, and she was not wearing a seatbelt. All three, or at least two of those things, she had absolute control over. None of that means she deserved the horrible death she had, it just means it is time to understand that there are a number of shades of grey and Harry is old enough to understand that.
 

AxelAnnie

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I don't know about shades of grey. Facts are facts. It would be simpler if people could keep them straight.

I think the Sussexes are shooting themselves in the foot here. It is a flippin picture. Poke your head out of a door, and let the Royal Press Corp have a picture. One and done! As the article said....it is part of their job description.

And, if it is later discovered that they had some side contract deal with someone (i.e. Oprah) I would imagine there would be hell to pay.
 

attyfan

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I doubt that Harry is looking at Diana's death factually or logically -- he was a child who lost a beloved mother -- and it is not uncommon for people to handle emotional burdens by blaming someone, whether rightfully or not. He isn't the first royal to do this -- and it is probably equally common among non-royals as well.
 

AxelAnnie

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I doubt that Harry is looking at Diana's death factually or logically -- he was a child who lost a beloved mother -- and it is not uncommon for people to handle emotional burdens by blaming someone, whether rightfully or not. He isn't the first royal to do this -- and it is probably equally common among non-royals as well.

I guess it is easier to blame the press, than to accept the fact that his mother made some pretty dang poor choices (like getting in the car with a driver who was drunk, not wearing a seat belt....etc).


Wikipedia

Although the media blamed the behaviour of the paparazzi who followed the car, a French judicial investigation in 1999 found that the crash was caused by Henri Paul, who lost control of the Mercedes at high speed while he was intoxicated and under the effects of prescription drugs. As a result, it was confirmed that no criminal charges would be issued against any of the pursuing photographers.
Paul was the deputy head of security at the Hôtel Ritz at the time of the crash and had goaded the paparazzi waiting outside the hotel earlier.[1] His inebriation may have been made worse by anti-depressants and traces of an anti-psychotic in his body.[2][3] The investigation concluded that the photographers were not near the Mercedes when it crashed.[4]

But then I think it is totally weird that they are cordial with Camilla and their father who did so much to make Diana miserable in life. But that is just me.
 
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mag

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But then I think it is totally weird that they are cordial with Camilla and their father who did so much to make Diana miserable in life. But that is just me.

I would say that Charles and Diana both made some stupid and insensitive decisions during their marriage. Diana was very young and suffered from severe eating disorders and post partum depression and Charles should have stepped up to make sure she got the help she needed. That said, in the last eight or so years of their marriage I would say the sins were fairly equal. It takes two to make a marriage work and neither of them appeared to be really trying.

The silver lining is that I think Charles really learned from the experience and much of the success Kate has had entering royal life I believe can be traced back to Charles making sure that the mistakes made with Diana were not repeated. I believe he has also tried to do the same with Meghan. Time will tell how that works out. Meghan is not a child or even a young adult. She is a mature, almost middle aged woman. She has taken on a lot on changes in the past year. That would be tough enough to deal with in private with the support of a solid, well adjusted spouse. She is dealing with it in public with a spouse who certainly seems loving and supportive, but has his own demons he may or may not have completely dealt with.

If it were up to me, I would suggest that Meghan and Harry take a complet step back from public life and focus on their relationship and their family. The immediate jump into work with multiple charities and tours and a new baby is reminiscent of how Diana started out and we know where that ended up. Harry is now 6th in line to the throne. He could step out of public life for a year and the family would carry on without him.
 

Japanfan

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I would say that Charles and Diana both made some stupid and insensitive decisions during their marriage. Diana was very young and suffered from severe eating disorders and post partum depression and Charles should have stepped up to make sure she got the help she needed. That said, in the last eight or so years of their marriage I would say the sins were fairly equal. It takes two to make a marriage work and neither of them appeared to be really trying.

SFAIK Charles was in love with Camilla when he married Diana? In which case, the sins would not have been equal.

It was just a very ill-conceived marriage. At least Diana found some happiness in her life before she died.
 

PDilemma

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SFAIK Charles was in love with Camilla when he married Diana? In which case, the sins would not have been equal.

It was just a very ill-conceived marriage. At least Diana found some happiness in her life before she died.

He really wasn't. She was married with children and he was carrying on with his own life. There was no active affair at the time of his courtship or marriage to Diana. She was part of his circle of friends but at that time faithful to her husband (who was a serial cheater incidentally). Charles was feeling the pressure to get married and produce an heir. Contrary to popular belief, that was self inflicted internal pressure likely helped along by the general expectations of the British people and the world. There was not a lot of pressure from his parents. He latched on to the idea of Diana because of poor advice that had been given to him years earlier by Louis Mountbatten--advice motivated by his desire to get Charles to marry his granddaughter, Amanda Knatchbull, actually. Interestingly, he tried and she turned him down.

It was indeed an ill conceived marriage but that would have been true had Charles never known Camilla Shand in his life. They had a large age and maturity gap. They had absolutely nothing in common. And they barely knew each other. The fact that the world has decided to blame Camilla for that is, frankly, pretty absurd. It was never going to work no matter what.
 

AxelAnnie

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He really wasn't. She was married with children and he was carrying on with his own life. There was no active affair at the time of his courtship or marriage to Diana. She was part of his circle of friends but at that time faithful to her husband (who was a serial cheater incidentally). Charles was feeling the pressure to get married and produce an heir. Contrary to popular belief, that was self inflicted internal pressure likely helped along by the general expectations of the British people and the world. There was not a lot of pressure from his parents. He latched on to the idea of Diana because of poor advice that had been given to him years earlier by Louis Mountbatten--advice motivated by his desire to get Charles to marry his granddaughter, Amanda Knatchbull, actually. Interestingly, he tried and she turned him down.

It was indeed an ill conceived marriage but that would have been true had Charles never known Camilla Shand in his life. They had a large age and maturity gap. They had absolutely nothing in common. And they barely knew each other. The fact that the world has decided to blame Camilla for that is, frankly, pretty absurd. It was never going to work no matter what.
Charles met Camilla before he met Diana. They began their romance in 1970. (Timeline). After a respite, Charles and Camilla renew their romance in 1986. In 1992 we have the Camilla Tapes.

Ill conceived marriage or not, Charles and Diana made vows, and had two children. As Diana said, there were always three people in their marriage. It may have been SOP for royal males to have affairs. Charles, unfortunately, carried on in the wrong era and with the wrong person. Loveless marriage or not, he had an obligation to his wife, his children and his country. Charles was an adult. He didn't have to marry a "sweet young thing". I posit that he married Diana, had the obligatory heir and a spare and figured he could carry on with womever he wanted. He guessed wrong. Things are public........traceable............very hard to keep things quiet when your every move is in the publuc eye, and the "public" is not just your circle of friends, but the WWW.
 

mag

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SFAIK Charles was in love with Camilla when he married Diana? In which case, the sins would not have been equal.

It was just a very ill-conceived marriage. At least Diana found some happiness in her life before she died.

I think there is tons of blame to throw around. Diana’s family were, IMHO, pretty mercenary about throwing their daughters at Charles. The whole situation was sad and unfortunate. I don’t buy that Diana was completely unaware of Charles’ feelings. She and her family moved in Royal circles and she grew up with Andrew and Edward.

I have no idea if Diana “found some happiness in her life before she died.” I think there was happiness when married to Charles and happiness when she was weekending with James Hewitt. I think it is easy to make Charles out to the ogre and Diana to be the perfect princess. I think neither is the case. Just like what is currently going on between Harry and Meghan and the media is not totally one sided. The problem is, it is easy to blame someone or something for what is wrong, but that won’t make you happy. Harry and Meghan have chosen to live and be supported by a public life, as did/do Diana and Charles. With that choice come consequences. Harry and Meghan, IMHO, are making life unreasonable difficult for themselves. Critical thinking and planning do not seem to be skills either have (which interestingly was Diana’s problem as well.) We shall see how it all turns out.
 

PDilemma

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I think there is tons of blame to throw around. Diana’s family were, IMHO, pretty mercenary about throwing their daughters at Charles. The whole situation was sad and unfortunate. I don’t buy that Diana was completely unaware of Charles’ feelings. She and her family moved in Royal circles and she grew up with Andrew and Edward.

I have no idea if Diana “found some happiness in her life before she died.” I think there was happiness when married to Charles and happiness when she was weekending with James Hewitt. I think it is easy to make Charles out to the ogre and Diana to be the perfect princess. I think neither is the case. Just like what is currently going on between Harry and Meghan and the media is not totally one sided. The problem is, it is easy to blame someone or something for what is wrong, but that won’t make you happy. Harry and Meghan have chosen to live and be supported by a public life, as did/do Diana and Charles. With that choice come consequences. Harry and Meghan, IMHO, are making life unreasonable difficult for themselves. Critical thinking and planning do not seem to be skills either have (which interestingly was Diana’s problem as well.) We shall see how it all turns out.

Charles dated Diana's sister, Sarah, prior to her. The Spencers certainly had it in their minds that marrying a daughter to Charles would be a good thing for the family. Interestingly, the family considers itself of more noble English stock than the Windsors because their line goes back in England for more generations.

Diana told her sisters just before the wedding that it was a mistake and she wanted out. They told her she couldn't get out of it as her "face was already on the tea towels". Not a wise or helpful response. A friend told me and her other three bridesmaids the night before her wedding that it was a mistake and she didn't want to go through with it once. We unanimously told her she didn't have to. She did anyway. That marriage went down in a blaze of cheating ten years and two unfortunate kids later. And neither of them ended up with an old friend down the road, either.
 

mag

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Charles Spencer is, and will always be, a complete ass. His treatment of his first wife was appalling. It is well know that he moved his family to South Africa and then immediately filed for divorce. Divorce laws in South Africa were much more favorable to him. His comments at Diana’s funeral were also, IMHO, in poor taste.
 

Japanfan

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A friend told me and her other three bridesmaids the night before her wedding that it was a mistake and she didn't want to go through with it once. We unanimously told her she didn't have to. She did anyway. That marriage went down in a blaze of cheating ten years and two unfortunate kids later. And neither of them ended up with an old friend down the road, either.

From what you say, you were a bridesmaid at Diana's wedding, or were with her bridesmaids the night before the wedding and then spoke to Diana that she didn't have to go through the wedding? Or spoke to the friend, who would have then spoken to Diana?

Did I get that right?
 

PDilemma

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From what you say, you were a bridesmaid at Diana's wedding, or were with her bridesmaids the night before the wedding and then spoke to Diana that she didn't have to go through the wedding? Or spoke to the friend, who would have then spoken to Diana?

Did I get that right?

Uh, NO. I certainly hope no one else interpreted that that way. Wow.

I was relating how I personally responded to a bride close to me who said she should not go through with her own wedding. Just making a comparison to how Diana's sisters responded to that declaration. I strongly feel that the advice myself and the other three women gave that bride was the right answer and the answer Diana's sisters gave was not. My friend felt that she couldn't call it off because we were all there; the ceremony was less than 24 hours away and people bought gifts. We didn't tell her that. We told her that didn't matter. If someone realizes before a planned wedding that the marriage will be a mistake, people close to them should help them cancel the wedding. Not tell them they have no choice.
 

AxelAnnie

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Uh, NO. I certainly hope no one else interpreted that that way. Wow.

I was relating how I personally responded to a bride close to me who said she should not go through with her own wedding. Just making a comparison to how Diana's sisters responded to that declaration. I strongly feel that the advice myself and the other three women gave that bride was the right answer and the answer Diana's sisters gave was not. My friend felt that she couldn't call it off because we were all there; the ceremony was less than 24 hours away and people bought gifts. We didn't tell her that. We told her that didn't matter. If someone realizes before a planned wedding that the marriage will be a mistake, people close to them should help them cancel the wedding. Not tell them they have no choice.
+-+ I thought the same thing. I was impressed you were so low-key about having been one of Diana's bridesmades.
 

taf2002

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Uh, NO. I certainly hope no one else interpreted that that way. Wow.

I was relating how I personally responded to a bride close to me who said she should not go through with her own wedding. Just making a comparison to how Diana's sisters responded to that declaration. I strongly feel that the advice myself and the other three women gave that bride was the right answer and the answer Diana's sisters gave was not. My friend felt that she couldn't call it off because we were all there; the ceremony was less than 24 hours away and people bought gifts. We didn't tell her that. We told her that didn't matter. If someone realizes before a planned wedding that the marriage will be a mistake, people close to them should help them cancel the wedding. Not tell them they have no choice.

How do you know Diana told her sisters that she didn't want to go thru with it? BTW, the 1st date she had with Charles should have been (in my opinion) enough to tell her not to go thru with it. I have never been impressed with Charles.
 

puglover

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I don't claim to be a Prince Charles fan but I would not have wanted to live his life. His siblings have had their share of mismatches but not being the next in line seems to have given them the time and space to get their lives figured out. Charles seems to be a loving father and doting grandfather and certainly rose to the occasion for Harry's wedding day. Camilla, his true love, seems so happy by his side and maybe they kind of show that messy or not - families can work it out, even if the eventual picture is different. It is truly terrible that Diana didn't get the same chance.
 

mag

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It is truly terrible that Diana didn't get the same chance.

It is truly terrible that she didn’t. That is, of course, not Charles fault. Diana really was a tragic figure and in many ways her own worst enemy. She is also a cautionary tale about the effects of bitter divorces on children (her parents divorce was horrendous,) mental illness, eating disorders, and post partum depression left untreated. I think in Kate, William has found someone who is both confident and intelligent enough to help him navigate through his demons. The jury is still for Harry. Hopefully he too will be able to deal with his demons and come out the other side a happy and confident person.

ETA: I think it is a testimonial to Charles’ parenting skills that his children have grown up as well as they have.
 

PDilemma

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It is truly terrible that she didn’t. That is, of course, not Charles fault. Diana really was a tragic figure and in many ways her own worst enemy. She is also a cautionary tale about the effects of bitter divorces on children (her parents divorce was horrendous,) mental illness, eating disorders, and post partum depression left untreated. I think in Kate, William has found someone who is both confident and intelligent enough to help him navigate through his demons. The jury is still for Harry. Hopefully he too will be able to deal with his demons and come out the other side a happy and confident person.

ETA: I think it is a testimonial to Charles’ parenting skills that his children have grown up as well as they have.

I think Meghan has her own demons and that's never a good thing. For all the reports of her parents's wonderful amicable divorce and her idyllic childhood (and most came from her as she tried to create an image, for what it's worth), it's pretty apparent in her current relationships with her family that that is not true. It also appears that she has some of Diana's traits--ghosting people was Diana's thing, too. And ghosting people is never a sign of an emotionally healthy person. Two dysfunctional people together will ultimately create more and more dysfunction.

Many good sources in reliable bios of both Charles and Diana indicate that he did everything he could to get mental health care for Diana. She refused to cooperate.



Diana told her sisters just before the wedding that it was a mistake and she wanted out. They told her she couldn't get out of it as her "face was already on the tea towels". Not a wise or helpful response. A friend told me and her other three bridesmaids the night before her wedding that it was a mistake and she didn't want to go through with it once. We unanimously told her she didn't have to. She did anyway. That marriage went down in a blaze of cheating ten years and two unfortunate kids later. And neither of them ended up with an old friend down the road, either.

My previous post for reference. I feel like I was very clear. See the bolded. I am baffled as to how someone could have read that and thought, "OMG, she was in Diana's wedding". First, clearly, I said "a friend". Not "Diana". Secondly, I was clear that the response was different than Diana's sisters. I also gave you the outcome of the marriage which, if I were talking about Charles and Diana, I would not have needed to do. Plus, I stated that the outcome was different for both parties than for Charles and Diana. Both are remarried to people they had never met at the time of their marriage to each other.

How do you know Diana told her sisters that she didn't want to go thru with it? BTW, the 1st date she had with Charles should have been (in my opinion) enough to tell her not to go thru with it. I have never been impressed with Charles.

https://www.today.com/news/princess...ing-worst-day-my-life-new-documentary-t115056

https://people.com/archive/a-grim-fairy-tale-vol-37-no-24/

https://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/books/65815086/null

http://content.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135603,00.html
 

Japanfan

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My previous post for reference. I feel like I was very clear. See the bolded. I am baffled as to how someone could have read that and thought, "OMG, she was in Diana's wedding". First, clearly, I said "a friend". Not "Diana".

The confusion was caused by your use of 'her'" (underline mine).

Diana told her sisters just before the wedding that it was a mistake and she wanted out. They told her she couldn't get out of it as her "face was already on the tea towels". Not a wise or helpful response. A friend told me and her other three bridesmaids the night before her wedding that it was a mistake and she didn't want to go through with it once. We unanimously told her she didn't have to. She did anyway.

The reader may associate the 'her' who had three other bridesmaids with the 'her' whose face is on tea towels already.

Of course Diana must had had more than three bridesmaids, but the reader has already made the association with 'her' and may glaze over that detail.

Secondly, I was clear that the response was different than Diana's sisters. I also gave you the outcome of the marriage which, if I were talking about Charles and Diana, I would not have needed to do. Plus, I stated that the outcome was different for both parties than for Charles and Diana. Both are remarried to people they had never met at the time of their marriage to each other.

Not all readers have absorbed all those details - in part due to people skim reading on message boards, but for me, more due to not being really that interested in Charles and Diana.

When I read the following:

That marriage went down in a blaze of cheating ten years and two unfortunate kids later. And neither of them ended up with an old friend down the road, either.

'Ten years' didn't seem off for Charles and Diana, though might have done so had I thought about it more. "Two unfortunate children' and 'no old friend down the road' could also have applied to them.
 

canbelto

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I think Meghan has her own demons and that's never a good thing. For all the reports of her parents's wonderful amicable divorce and her idyllic childhood (and most came from her as she tried to create an image, for what it's worth), it's pretty apparent in her current relationships with her family that that is not true. It also appears that she has some of Diana's traits--ghosting people was Diana's thing, too. And ghosting people is never a sign of an emotionally healthy person. Two dysfunctional people together will ultimately create more and more dysfunction.

Strongly disagree. I've ghosted people who were simply toxic personalities and for whom no firm "goodbye" was ever enough for them to not keep trying to come back. I once taught a student who was heavily addicted to gambling. I tried getting him help so many times. Yet somehow he found out my personal phone number and I started getting calls late at night from people demanding that I give them large sums of money. The only thing I could do was ghost him. It didn't stop him from trying to contact me several times in later years, always with desperate pleas for money to pay off gambling debts.

Meghan's family dynamics sound very toxic to me and it's not a surprise she distanced herself from them.
 

mag

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I agree that there are times when ghosting is the only way to deal with a toxic person; however, in Diana’s case, she was well know for ghosting people who were far from toxic. Elton John and Sarah Ferguson (no matter what your opinion of her) do not seem to fit into that category. Diana most definitely dealt with mental illness on and off throughout her life. Whether or not ghosting was part of that or just the way she dealt with people she no longer wanted to associate with, who knows? As for Meghan, I have no idea, other than some of her crazy family, if she is known for ghosting. I agree completely that with her family I can’t imagine there would be another way to deal with them.
 
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