The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

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cocotaffy

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H/D need to get their act together next year because S/K isn't gonna stop and will be motivated like never after those great results. H/D add a good first half of the season finishing on a high with the GPF win but it went downhill from there for a team which was supposed to become P/C's direct competition. Actually, S/K could have also hit a plateau after Euro but they bounced back stronger than H/D after 4CC.
H/D have done something to their skating I don't understand. They used to be light and fast, very agile on their skate and it created a great contrast with their striking physical appearance, both being tall and charismatic. But this year, I found their skating to be much heavier and labored. Their edges didn't look as precise as before too especially in the RD. For couple of seasons, they were always quite impressive in the RD portion, being very sharp and powerful but it's like they slightly regressed this year. It might be post Olympic fatigue. However, they gonna have to come up with great programs and refreshed skills to battle with S/K. Next season should be a thrill.
BTW, do we know if the Shibs have hinted at a come back ? And if they want to, what would be the latest they can announce it ?
 

Bigbird

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Skate Canada dumped them , the want Gilles and Poirier , the Danadians and Lajoie and Lagha at worlds in Montreal , if weapo continue look for the schocker 4th place position at nationals next year they need to retire to avoid humiliation.

But I just don't see G/P making that move, when it counts they've been too tight lately. Although I love me some Sorensen, FB is the soup within the Danadians but Nik often gets tight and messes up. L/L are just not ready yet. Is there any other team looking to make an impact?
 

yurokis40

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But I just don't see G/P making that move, when it counts they've been too tight lately. Although I love me some Sorensen, FB is the soup within the Danadians but Nik often gets tight and messes up. L/L are just not ready yet. Is there any other team looking to make an impact?
Lajoie and lagha are ready they look like seniors already , their twizzles are superior to both weapo and gilles and poirier i think they will be at worlds next year in montreal.
 

Colonel Green

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its not a joke i think they can make an impact right away they trounced everyone at junior worlds top 10 at worlds is a possibility.
I'm a big fan of them as a team, but there is a big difference between juniors and seniors; there's a reason such meteoric transitions are exceptionally rare, and they're not once-a-generation level, at least not yet.

Beyond which, them defeating one of the current top three teams in Canada is extremely unlikely. And I was referring to the idea that Skate Canada "dropped" Weaver/Poje, which clearly they did not; no federation would ever actively try to bump its top team (which they still are), particularly when, as now, keeping three spots at Worlds is knife's edge.
 

yurokis40

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I'm a big fan of them as a team, but there is a big difference between juniors and seniors; there's a reason such meteoric transitions are exceptionally rare, and they're not once-a-generation level, at least not yet.

Beyond which, them defeating one of the current top three teams in Canada is extremely unlikely. And I was referring to the idea that Skate Canada "dropped" Weaver/Poje, which clearly they did not; no federation would ever actively try to bump its top team (which they still are), particularly when, as now, keeping three spots at Worlds is knife's edge.
Why Gilles and Poirier are stagnating and going nowhere , Piper`s technical issues will never be fixed , the danadians will have to prove themselves a full season next year with a new free dance, the door is open i think they are capable of taking down one of these teams.
 

Colonel Green

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Why Gilles and Poirier are stagnating and going nowhere , Piper`s technical issues will never be fixed , the danadians will have to prove themselves a full season next year with a new free dance, the door is open i think they are capable of taking down one of these teams.
Even if Gilles and Poirier were stagnating (which I would disagree with, incidentally), their present level is among the top 8 teams in the world. Fournier Beaudry and Sorensen don't have to prove anything in that regard; they've competed full seasons and had new programs before (and, as they noted, all of the new elements meant that their free program from this season was different in a lot of ways; next season they'll be able to fit the one-foot step somewhere other than toward the very end, for one thing, which will make things easier).
 

Debbie S

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BTW, do we know if the Shibs have hinted at a come back ? And if they want to, what would be the latest they can announce it ?
In order to get an int'l assignment, I believe they would need to be in the USADA drug testing pool for 6 months, so if they want to compete at SA, they would need to decide by tomorrow, or last month. But they haven't given any indication they want to - they seem to be happy traveling around the world doing various celebrity stuff, and per their social media, don't seem to be spending that much time in the rink except for shows and rehearsals. I would be surprised if they came back, but if they did, they would probably need to start training in Feb or March for the following season. IIRC, V/M announced their comeback in Feb of 2016, and Tessa attended Worlds that year as a spectator. Not that it's required, but the Shibs were in Japan at the same time as Worlds and weren't even posting about it, much less attending. I think they've moved on, which is fine, nothing wrong with that.
 

Katha

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H/D need to get their act together next year because S/K isn't gonna stop and will be motivated like never after those great results. H/D add a good first half of the season finishing on a high with the GPF win but it went downhill from there for a team which was supposed to become P/C's direct competition. Actually, S/K could have also hit a plateau after Euro but they bounced back stronger than H/D after 4CC.
H/D have done something to their skating I don't understand. They used to be light and fast, very agile on their skate and it created a great contrast with their striking physical appearance, both being tall and charismatic. But this year, I found their skating to be much heavier and labored. Their edges didn't look as precise as before too especially in the RD. For couple of seasons, they were always quite impressive in the RD portion, being very sharp and powerful but it's like they slightly regressed this year. It might be post Olympic fatigue. However, they gonna have to come up with great programs and refreshed skills to battle with S/K. Next season should be a thrill.
Yeah, pretty much all of this. I don't get what H/D were doing this season and what Montreal was doing with them for that matter? IMO they got off pretty lightly since they still won Worlds bronze, but I wasn't convinced at all by either their programs or their performances to be frank. The RD and FD didn't suit them IMO. The FD in particular was really weak all season. And whenever they encountered a tech panel that actually bothered to do its job, they lost levels. It really looks like they regressed this season and I don't understand it. Are they in some sort of transition where they want to change their style and/or skating and this is just a bump on the way? Burnout? Or just one of these things where everyone meant well, but the results just never quite clicked?
 

believed

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Are they in some sort of transition where they want to change their style and/or skating and this is just a bump on the way? Burnout? Or just one of these things where everyone meant well, but the results just never quite clicked?
When they were deciding on the music for their FD, they had no idea what to do until someone (MF?) suggested Kissing You and they were like oh we’ve always wanted to skate to that, so I think it was a “well, nothing else jumps out at us” program — although they must’ve(?) ended up liking it enough to keep working at it (or liked how the judges responded to it). Who knows.
 

barbarafan

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I can't tell if this is meant to be a joke or not, but either way, no.
Weapo are the class of the field. Skate Canada has always favoured Gilles and Poirier and domestic judges fall in line. W/P always have to be lottttttttttttttssssssssssss better for the win. Fortunately they are so they usually win. Their free dance is a masterpiece.
 

aka_gerbil

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I’ve actually been considering if, at this point, what H/D need is to be in a place where they can be the #1 team.

Not everyone is like V/M who seemed to desire and thrive on training with their closest rivals. We’ve seen skaters in other disciplines make moves in the last year because they didn’t want that kind of situation.

All of V/M, D/W, and P/C had occasions at which to establish themselves. Whereas H/D have just been making their climb and now they're up against this unstoppable force. I don’t think anything is going to budge P/C from Gadbois #1 and I don’t think H/D can really make a good run at dislodging them if they’re Gadbois #2 in the pecking order. The only other two teams who could make a run are S/K and S/B, both the #1s in their respective groups.
 

sharsk8s

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I’ve actually been considering if, at this point, what H/D need is to be in a place where they can be the #1 team.

Not everyone is like V/M who seemed to desire and thrive on training with their closest rivals. We’ve seen skaters in other disciplines make moves in the last year because they didn’t want that kind of situation.

All of V/M, D/W, and P/C had occasions at which to establish themselves. Whereas H/D have just been making their climb and now they're up against this unstoppable force. I don’t think anything is going to budge P/C from Gadbois #1 and I don’t think H/D can really make a good run at dislodging them if they’re Gadbois #2 in the pecking order. The only other two teams who could make a run are S/K and S/B, both the #1s in their respective groups.
I agree but I don't see where else they could go to get the quality training they need and be #1. Also, they seem to really like the coaching staff and other skaters there so I do not see them realistically leaving.
 

aka_gerbil

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I agree but I don't see where else they could go to get the quality training they need and be #1. Also, they seem to really like the coaching staff and other skaters there so I do not see them realistically leaving.

They also once upon a time really liked the skaters and coaches at the DSC, and they left there.

Montreal is not the only place in North America to get quality ice dance training. Igor Shpilband and Marina Zoueva are both outstanding coaches with OGM winners.
 

sharsk8s

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They also once upon a time really liked the skaters and coaches at the DSC, and they left there.

Montreal is not the only place in North America to get quality ice dance training. Igor Shpilband and Marina Zoueva are both outstanding coaches with OGM winners.
Igor has many of his own top teams (weapo, cpom, n/k) and marina is practically blacklisted by judging panels so they wouldn't be doing themselves any favors going there
 

aka_gerbil

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W/P are not in Novi full-time—they are more with Morozov. C/P are still baking and actually need to have a top tier senior team to train with full time. Marina’s top team won the bronze medal at the Olympics last year then stopped competing. That’s not blacklisted.
 

Peepsquick

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They also once upon a time really liked the skaters and coaches at the DSC, and they left there.

Montreal is not the only place in North America to get quality ice dance training. Igor Shpilband and Marina Zoueva are both outstanding coaches with OGM winners.

I honestly don't think that Gadbois is the type of training center to give advantage to some skaters over others. I'm pretty positive that H/D get the same quality of training and attention that P/C do.
When it comes to having a taste for competing, I think that H/D are more into it than P/C. P/C had to learn to compete the hard way in V/M's first year at Gadbois. Zach seems to be a pretty confident guy and is vocal about seeing himself and Madi at the top. They just had a fluke season with a FD that didn't quite add up.
I thought they were moving toward V/M's style, running on athleticism and sexual chemistry. Personally, I think they need to find their own voice along this line but they have to make sure they don't cross the line into the overly dramatic. I enjoyed the genuine emotions of their previous seasons more.
 
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Enchanted

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IMO, one of the H/D’s big weaknesses can be seen in this pic collage. It is of course evident when you see them skate but the pics highlight it even more. Their dancing skills and upper body movement are lacking by quite a bit. And it is not just these pics but something I’ve noticed in pretty much all of the pics of their routines.

In the pic collage you can see how P/C are hitting interesting and organic movements. With them you can sense the dance and movement even in the pictures. With H/D it’s all very static. They do nothing interesting. Even Donohue’s expression in one of the pics is very cliche O face. Whereas with P/C the movement in itself creates the mood.

The pic collage sort of confirms the feeling I’ve had for a long time. P/C are dancers on the ice whereas H/D (and the majority of the other icedancers) are just skaters who pretend to dance.
 

Jammers

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Skate Canada dumped them , the want Gilles and Poirier , the Danadians and Lajoie and Lagha at worlds in Montreal , if weapo continue look for the schocker 4th place position at nationals next year they need to retire to avoid humiliation.
Seriously you think a brand new just up from Juniors team like L/L is going to beat W/P right out of the gate? Or the Danadians who W/P easily beat at Canadian Nats, 4CC and Worlds by an average of about 17 points are also going suddenly improve so much and beat W/P? :confused:
 

puglover

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I think this year H/D just didn't have the best material. It is so crucial in ice dance and although they tried with R&J I just loved their last year free dance so much more. One thing I would say about P/C - they play to their stengths and do it better than anyone else. H/D have amazing strengths as well, they just need the right vehicles.
 

Colonel Green

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Weapo are the class of the field. Skate Canada has always favoured Gilles and Poirier and domestic judges fall in line. W/P always have to be lottttttttttttttssssssssssss better for the win.
This is, of course, not true at all. Until recently, W/P always won by wide margins, and the closing of the gap in recent events mirrors what has happened internationally.

I agree but I don't see where else they could go to get the quality training they need and be #1. Also, they seem to really like the coaching staff and other skaters there so I do not see them realistically leaving.
They're also both involved with other dancers at Gadbois.

I'm not sure that it would especially benefit them to leave Gadbois at this point, anyway. Gadbois is the single-most important training center in the world right now, and they're the #2. That's not as good as being #1, of course, but the prestige of the place does help.
 

Dobre

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I wrote this a while ago and was trying not to post it; but what the heck? Season is over. Time to start fresh with new programs for the mid-quadrennium.

Well put and your points are respected. I will try to find another term which conveys what I mean.

With regard to Hubbell & Donohue's R&J, I personally would go with "ill-advised," "sappy," and perhaps "tacky." (The music choice being their own fault, the tackiness not their fault because really there is no way to do justice to this Luhrmann soundtrack without an appropriate level of tackiness). Why ill-advised? Because this particular version of R&J was already done and done to the tune of a World gold medal back in 2001, and while Tracy Wilson was busy slamming it and the Canadian audience at the time was busy being offended by it and trying to block it from their collective consciousness, really Fusar-Poli & Margaglio squeezed every last bit of tacky over the topness out of it that ever needed to be addressed in order to win a World Championships, leaving us with nothing but sappy Kissing You music left over. Which H&D obviously wanted to be "genuine" but which was just dying a sad sappy death.

To give H&D credit, they doctored that puppy about as well as it could be doctored without scrapping it altogether. And they got their butts in gear after the debacle at 4CCs, which was probably the best thing that could have happened to them heading into Worlds this season. They got the bronze, and it is entirely possible that starting over from scratch back in September might have set them behind enough that achieving that might have been a problem. (I think they kind of learned the lesson of how hard it can be to catch up with the field the year of their Great Gatsby program so I can understand why we've only seen them opt to tweak programs rather than ditch them). But sayonara to these programs, good riddance, and may H&D please take more than 5 minutes selecting their music for next season.
 
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cocotaffy

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It feels like H/D has kind of lost the sense of who they are as skaters in the pursuit of who they think they need to be in order to defeat P/C, being some kind of version of V/M. That R&J might look forced, tacky or whatever was to be expected, tbh by Worlds they managed to extract the best out of this potential mess, so kuddos to them but they should have killed the Tango. Considering their natural chemistry with each other and that great FD from last year, their RD should have oozed tension yet it just looked over dramatic with Madison smiling through. Maybe they were trying a different approach taping into a style that isn't remotely close to P/C's but they just need to recenter and focus on their own strengths not trying to emulate anyone else's style. Go back to the basics, rework on your SS and flow, loosen up and don't force anything. Also, Zach needs to work on his flexibility and his posture a bit as those photos mentioned earlier highlight, he looked rather stiff out there, but it might be due to the fact he has been bulking up so much in the last couple years. Back to the drawing boards ...

Actually, Nikita needs to work on his posture too, especially his back and leg extensions. Plus, choosing loose costumes and tee-shirt doesn't help, everything is flying around and give the impression none of his limbs are ever fully extended. Basically, he needs some pilates lessons to elongate that spine and also needs to finish his movements. He improved a lot in that he's more patient and is able to slow down, being more aware and in tune with Viktoria's movements. But, he still needs to finish everything all the way to his fingertips and toes. That is one thing which separates P/C from the other, their posture and how they let the movements breath to fully interpret every nuance of the music. Nothing is ever out of place.
 

text_skate

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That is one thing which separates P/C from the other, their posture and how they let the movements breath to fully interpret every nuance of the music. Nothing is ever out of place.
This. Particularly in this WTT FS performance I recognized P/C's movements to the point, imo a good deal better than in WC FS. Nothing out of place, lightness, and unbelievable flexibility, especially Gaby's shoulder(blade)s.
 

mjb52

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That is one thing which separates P/C from the other, their posture and how they let the movements breath to fully interpret every nuance of the music. Nothing is ever out of place.

This is a nice quality but at the same time, I don't like seeing it pushed as the "ultimate" way to do skating. It feels tied into style to me, and however admirable it may be, I think there is an underlying conflict between the implication that this is the thing that sets them apart as deserving winners (and therefore what other teams should do if they also want to deserve to be winners) and your point that other teams shouldn't try to be P/C. As with the "skating as one" thing I see being pushed both here and in pairs, there is a homogenizing undercurrent that I don't see as a positive at all.
 

Scrufflet

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I wrote this a while ago and was trying not to post it; but what the heck? Season is over. Time to start fresh with new programs for the mid-quadrennium.



With regard to Hubbell & Donohue's R&J, I personally would go with "ill-advised," "sappy," and perhaps "tacky." (The music choice being their own fault, the tackiness not their fault because really there is no way to do justice to this Luhrmann soundtrack without an appropriate level of tackiness). Why ill-advised? Because this particular version of R&J was already done and done to the tune of a World gold medal back in 2001, and while Tracy Wilson was busy slamming it and the Canadian audience at the time was busy being offended by it and trying to block it from their collective consciousness, really Fusar-Poli & Margaglio squeezed every last bit of tacky over the topness out of it that ever needed to be addressed in order to win a World Championships, leaving us with nothing but sappy Kissing You music left over. Which H&D obviously wanted to be "genuine" but which was just dying a sad sappy death.

To give H&D credit, they doctored that puppy about as well as it could be doctored without scrapping it altogether. And they got their butts in gear after the debacle at 4CCs, which was probably the best thing that could have happened to them heading into Worlds this season. They got the bronze, and it is entirely possible that starting over from scratch back in September might have set them behind enough that achieving that might have been a problem. (I think they kind of learned the lesson of how hard it can be to catch up with the field the year of their Great Gatsby program so I can understand why we've only seen them opt to tweek programs rather than ditch them). But sayonara to these programs, good riddance, and may H&D please take more than 5 minutes selecting their music for next season.
I too give credit to Hub/Don for doing the best they coiuld with that program. I thought the first half was powerful, then it fizzled out. I'm sure next season will give us quite a few versions of "A Star is Born" but I think this team could really do justice to "Shallow". It will be interesting to see their choice. I bet they learn and come back stronger.
 

PRlady

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I too give credit to Hub/Don for doing the best they coiuld with that program. I thought the first half was powerful, then it fizzled out. I'm sure next season will give us quite a few versions of "A Star is Born" but I think this team could really do justice to "Shallow". It will be interesting to see their choice. I bet they learn and come back stronger.

Oh please god no. Shallow is the most unintentionally perfectly-titled song ever. H/D should go to rock or blues which is their (very wide) lane and leave the simpering ballads to others.

I think the Poles should skate to Shallow. Perfect mix of song and skaters. They could dedicate it to their edges.
 

Peepsquick

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This is a nice quality but at the same time, I don't like seeing it pushed as the "ultimate" way to do skating. It feels tied into style to me, and however admirable it may be, I think there is an underlying conflict between the implication that this is the thing that sets them apart as deserving winners (and therefore what other teams should do if they also want to deserve to be winners) and your point that other teams shouldn't try to be P/C. As with the "skating as one" thing I see being pushed both here and in pairs, there is a homogenizing undercurrent that I don't see as a positive at all.

I have to question what the goal of 2 people dancing together is then? The instinctive (and also rehearsed) "atuneness" to your partner is of the essence. Add to this the medium Ice and Dance is transcended by the glide. Not taking full advantage of it takes away the magic imo. It can be done and be entertaining but the best teams are symbiotic.
As for P/C way of skating dictating some sort of "must-do-it-that-way", I don't believe it. They are just incredibly good. Beyond this I really appreciate and enjoy many other dance teams like C/B, H/D, F-B/S, G/P, S/B, S/K, L/G and many more. They can each bring something different to Ice Dance. Everything is not only about competition and there are many talented dance pairs who need to focus on their own distinctive voice right now and stop following a trend that isn't them.
 
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