The Dance Hall 6: We're All Off Our Rockers 2018-2019

[sap5]

Once again, we seem to have a majority of teams going for the P/C style of pensive, quasi-romantic, midtempo programs set to contemporary music (sometimes classical). I know there are some exceptions, but the general trend still holds. I mean, of the 4 main U.S. senior teams we’ve seen so far (H/D, M/C, P/P, C/P), ALL of them have programs that I would consider to be in this genre.

How is an entire genre labeled “P/C style”? That genre covers tons of programs that were done every year for years before P/C were even born. Not meaning to call you out specifically, Claire. I just see this all over the place...any program that is vaguely lyrical/contemporary is labeled as “P/C style,” and I feel this reflects a misunderstanding about what makes P/C’s programs special.

ETA: I should add that it’s also a disservice to the skaters who aren’t P/C and the vision those skaters are trying to present.

 

[barbarafan]

Just a few tidbits of information that people might find interesting/useful in relation to W/Ps free dance. I think that a certain amount of Weaver/Poje's free dance was choreographed before Denis' death. They had been to Detroit for the choreography by Igor at an earlier time. Kaitlyn and Andrew also had a photoshoot at a time before Denis died where they took photos of themin the opening pose of their free dance.

I read somewhere that Denis had encouraged them to use this music. It then became a tribute after the tragedy.

 

[clairecloutier]

How is an entire genre labeled “P/C style”? That genre covers tons of programs that were done every year for years before P/C were even born. Not meaning to call you out specifically, Claire. I just see this all over the place...any program that is vaguely lyrical/contemporary is labeled as “P/C style,” and I feel this reflects a misunderstanding about what makes P/C’s programs special.

Yes, I know this style was seen before P/C, definitely agree on that. However, I think the large proportion of teams currently using it is definitely related to P/C’s huge success. And yes, I think this style is quite identified with P/C at this point. There are of course many other reasons for P/C’s success, as well (and there are subtle differences among their FDs). But for other teams, the easiest thing to emulate about P/C is their general program style, and I’d argue that’s what they’re doing.

I would have to go back through the years to compare the overall prevalence of this style now versus say 10 years ago, but I do feel there’s a big increase in it. I mean when I think back on the top teams’ FDs in, say, 2006 versus now, and I remember from that Olympics— 1) N/K Tosca (right?), B/A Latin, G/G The Feeling Begins, D/S carnival theme, FP/M disco, Domnina/Shabalin waltz, Denkova/Staviyski contemporary, D/L romantic.

This is tangential to my main point, though, which is just that I’m bored by what, to me, are too many similar FDs. I could take out my attribution of the style to P/C and still feel the same. JMO.

 

[Nmsis]

For example, I recall a while ago a member called Denis Ten's music choice for SOS an 'abomination', but the version chosen was very famous in Kazakhstan and a very popular song in that country. So, it clearly did a lot for many people and was effective for his audience.

Well it is an abomination.
It is a very well done vocal exercise on some "emotive" song.
Now when you speak the lingo, it's clear that the singer doesn't understand a thing he's saying. He even ends up speaking "yoghurt" (syllabs somehow related to actual words) at the end. So it really sounds like an exercise in style.

And an exercise in style on a cult musical/hit song not the best idea. It sounds hollow very quickly and the emotion is anger rather than awe.

Starmania has a cult status for french speakers.
The musical and the people who were part of it.
SOS d'un terrien en détresse was sung by a singer, Daniel Balavoine, who was a voice for the youth and at the top of the charts in the 80s. He died in an helicopter accident in 1986 at age 33 during the Paris-Dakar Rally. It's one of the great shock of my childhood to have learned that during the evening news.
The composer, Michel Berger, was a mega-talented and super beloved songwriter who suddendly died in 1992 at age 44 from a heart attack. That was another big shock of my teenagehood.
One of the main singers of Starmania was France Gall who was a Gainsbourg egerie before becoming Michel Berger's and she died 6 months ago.
So we may be kind of super-touchy about anything Starmania.

After watching ice dance for so many years, I feel like what the lyrics say, who the singer is, etc., ultimately doesn’t matter— the only thing that matters is whether the dancers can sell whatever their believing. If they can do that successfully, the audience will rationalize and make up all kinds of explanations for why the program makes total sense.

I agree and I disagree.
It doesn't matter if the audience understands the meaning of lyrics or the singer or whatever.
But there is a world of difference between dancers who understand what they are doing and those who don't.
Choreography-wise, meaning-wise.
Because what they understand, they can convey.
What they don't stays hollow.

 

[believed]

While W/P’s FD is very beautiful, I guess my problem with it is that I don’t understand what the story they’re trying to tell is (or if they are trying to tell a story?).

 

[starrynight]

@Nmsis Thank you for the context. I had never even heard of Starmania until now. I couldn't understand why people were using such extremely negative language to criticise Denis Ten's programs (particularly after his death).

 

[nuge]

[QUOTE="clairecloutier, post: 5417310, member: 52415 , we Ugh! I feel like I’m really going to miss even the variety of the Shibs’ Coldplay and H/D’s blues last season. Ready for this trend to be over!
[/QUOTE]

Don't worry Stepanova/Bukin have a blues FD

 

[morqet]

Fear/Gibson have my favourite senior FD so far this season, not because it’s particularly groundbreaking, but at least it’s fun and different to the dances we’re seeing from 90% of the other teams.

 

[Mrs. P]

Fear/Gibson have my favourite senior FD so far this season, not because it’s particularly groundbreaking, but at least it’s fun and different to the dances we’re seeing from 90% of the other teams.

I loved it too! They bring a lot of energy and life to it. And the technical elements are really well-timed to the music.

 

[MarieM]

@Nmsis Thank you for the context. I had never even heard of Starmania until now. I couldn't understand why people were using such extremely negative language to criticise Denis Ten's programs (particularly after his death).

Really nothing about his skating, but the singer who is DESTROYING that song? 100%
Yeah I am a "Starmaniaque". I've grown listening to it. I saw it twice, I own the video of the 88 production who still is my favorite. I listen to it at least once a week. So I am super mega touchy about this. Or anything related to Berger, Gall and their likes.

Part of the choreography process is to understand what piece you are chosing, to make sure it does relate to what you want to convey. Most of skaters lack this basic understanding. Usually, W&P are not amongst those at all. This is what angers me the most.

 

[sap5]

nvm.

 

[Nmsis]

@Nmsis Thank you for the context. I had never even heard of Starmania until now. I couldn't understand why people were using such extremely negative language to criticise Denis Ten's programs (particularly after his death).

You're welcome.
I'll add that Starmania is the matrix of all the modern francophone musicals.
Notre Dame de Paris (which shares its quebecois lyricist Luc Plamondon with Starmania), Romeo & Juliette, Le Roi Soleil, Mozart Opéra Rock.
Musicals had been a dying genre in France for 30 years and in the 90s, producers' goal was to emulate Starmania's everlasting popularity. It became the model to rebuild the genre.

 

[mollymgr]

Yes, I know this style was seen before P/C, definitely agree on that. However, I think the large proportion of teams currently using it is definitely related to P/C’s huge success. And yes, I think this style is quite identified with P/C at this point. There are of course many other reasons for P/C’s success, as well (and there are subtle differences among their FDs). But for other teams, the easiest thing to emulate about P/C is their general program style, and I’d argue that’s what they’re doing.

I would have to go back through the years to compare the overall prevalence of this style now versus say 10 years ago, but I do feel there’s a big increase in it. I mean when I think back on the top teams’ FDs in, say, 2006 versus now, and I remember from that Olympics— 1) N/K Tosca (right?), B/A Latin, G/G The Feeling Begins, D/S carnival theme, FP/M disco, Domnina/Shabalin waltz, Denkova/Staviyski contemporary, D/L romantic.

This is tangential to my main point, though, which is just that I’m bored by what, to me, are too many similar FDs. I could take out my attribution of the style to P/C and still feel the same. JMO.

I feel like it is just an ice dance trend. A majority of the top ice dance teams train in Gadbois. The costuming and choreography have very similar looks from team to team. To add to that, outside of Gadbois, there are copycats who are also aiming to mimic whatever is trendy at the moment.

 

[allezfred]

Notre Dame de Paris (which shares its quebecois lyricist Luc Plamondon with Starmania)

Ha! No wonder I find it a bit overwrought and annoying as a piece of music. Sorry @MarieM .

Fear/Gibson for World silver though!

 

[Peepsquick]

I feel like it is just an ice dance trend. A majority of the top ice dance teams train in Gadbois. The costuming and choreography have very similar looks from team to team. To add to that, outside of Gadbois, there are copycats who are also aiming to mimic whatever is trendy at the moment.

I personally don't agree that they all look alike or that their style are the same. H/D, D/S for instance have a much more Tessa/Scott-sensual-earthy vibe to their pieces. The "Danadians" have very much a style of their own.

But then again shouldn't the dance teams themselves discover with time what suits them best and then be allowed to grow their abilities along the line of their own preferences/talents in the FD? These people are at it almost 24/7. I would advocate for more input from the teams themselves and also for fans to give them a brake with the so-called "versatility"! The RD provides ballroom dance enthusiasts the satisfaction of ever-changing themes. I wish for creativity and more freedom in the FD, whatever the style chosen.

 

[shan]

@Peepsquick Who are D/S? My mind has gone blank. All I can think is Denkova/Stavisky.

Never mind... Diaz/Smart?

 

[mollymgr]

I personally don't agree that they all look alike or that their style are the same. H/D, D/S for instance have a much more Tessa/Scott-sensual-earthy vibe to their pieces. The "Danadians" have very much a style of their own.

But then again shouldn't the dance teams themselves discover with time what suits them best and then be allowed to grow their abilities along the line of their own preferences/talents in the FD? These people are at it almost 24/7. I would advocate for more input from the teams themselves and also for fans to give them a brake with the so-called "versatility"! The RD provides ballroom dance enthusiasts the satisfaction of ever-changing themes. I wish for creativity and more freedom in the FD, whatever the style chosen.

These are costumes from 2017-18 free dances from Gadbois. I don't see too many rhinestones, a lot of use of sheer fabric and solid colors. There is definitely a common style in costuming.

http://www.insideskating.net/wp-con...d-Guillaume-Cizeron-FD-2018-Europeans-3-1.jpg
https://assets1.sportsnet.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Virtue_Moir-1040x572.jpg
http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Romain+Le+Gac+Marie+Jade+Lauriault+Figure+BwEzK8pRWYFl.jpg
https://i0.wp.com/www.ice-dance.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Smart-Diaz-17FD-RR-3215.jpg?zoom=2&resize=852,504&ssl=1

 

[Peepsquick]

rhinestone-lassitude maybe?

 

[Debbie S]

I'm not sure if it's so much the coaching team/location but the costume designer. A lot of them use the same designer who I think is based in Montreal? Chock/Bates and Carreira/Pon use that designer too. I think H/D's costumes are made by Madi's mom, so they look a little different. And I think there are certain trends in costuming that you see at any particular time with skaters in all disciplines, regardless of designer.

Agree that dances over the past quad tended to mimic P/C's style. I was hoping V/M's winning the OGM with MR would inspire more variation this quad.

Don't worry Stepanova/Bukin have a blues FD

And so do C/B, although I'm not thrilled with Elvis. But I will keep an open mind until I see the program.

 

[VGThuy]

I think the ice dance requirements and what is being rewarded have made the soft/lyrical style the best style to fit what is required. Long edges to make sure the callers are seeing that you're executing your turns and steps, lots of glide to show ice coverage, looser holds (even compared to the 90s and 2000s) so you can generate more speed, serious but vague concepts to show "emotional depth" thus higher PCS, etc.

Gone are the days (right now) where top ice dance teams just choreographed their routine with lots of moves, steps in-between elements to the rhythm as opposed to melody and we don't see footwork sequences with shorter steps but lots of them and keeping in time with a faster-piece of music with lots of percussion or beats while going in and out of a variety of open and closed holds. And why would they? That is a lot more taxing and athletically-demanding than what is rewarded right now and I wonder if ice dance teams these days are equipped for it. I think among the top senior teams (I'm defining it by top 10 at Worlds who are currently competing this season) only Stepanova/Bukin is trying to step away from that particular long edges trend and trying really hard to set their own style. Their tango FD from 2017 was something wildly different from others. I also thought Chock/Bates was giving something different because they were doing some pretty demanding programs physically speaking but they were criticized for many other things (rightly IMO), but their John Lennon FD seemed like they were joining the rest of the field and now they joined that max exodus to Montreal so who knows what they'll look like now.

 

[starrynight]

Ok we now understand that some people are Starmania fanatics who don't want anyone touching the sacred source material and don't like singers with bad French pronunciation. But now the point is made, I'd prefer it if it didn't need to get rehashed every time Denis Ten is mentioned because it does make me really uncomfortable seeing his last program before he died to be talked about so negatively because of personal music preferences. Particularly if it's just a case of him being caught up in the middle of ice dance drama.

As for styles of programs... the GOE markers are: smooth, effortless, seamless, clean, smooth, body lines pleasing.

MUCH easier to do this using flowing programs which are soft and lyrical. And I know people say they want something different, but I don't remember say Chock/Bate's 'Under Pressure' FD getting a lot of reward and that was a textbook example of a team trying to buck the trend.

I think in ice dance the change comes from the top down and people will (justifiably) look at what the winners are doing. A few years ago 'The New Style' was what all the judges were raving about and I believe they sent the message to teams to look more like that. And they got what they wanted?

Also, it's easy to get nostalgic about ice dance in the past (I'm talking pre IJS), but as a whole I find the level of technical competency in modern teams very impressive.

 

[Peepsquick]

@Peepsquick Who are D/S? My mind has gone blank. All I can think is Denkova/Stavisky.

Never mind... Diaz/Smart?

Yep! I also get lost in all the acronyms ...

 

[nuge]

Well the two FD I like which are a bit different are Popova/Mozgov. I love the dramatic and they are a little rough around the edges but it's different. Also Guinard/Fabbri La la land.

 

[MarieM]

The best I've seen so far is the Sweet Dreams I saw at the american comp so far.

 

[barbarafan]

Well the two FD I like which are a bit different are Popova/Mozgov. I love the dramatic and they are a little rough around the edges but it's different. Also Guinard/Fabbri La la land.

I will look at them...I missed a few of the programs

 

[cocotaffy]

The best I've seen so far is the Sweet Dreams I saw at the american comp so far.

Which team I'm curious ?

 

[starrynight]

Karina Manta and Joe Johnson. It's an excellent program. Really cool and retro. Even though this team isn't at the top in the technical side of things, they look so good doing the program and it's very entertaining and effective.

 

[Impromptu]

Karina Manta and Joe Johnson. It's an excellent program. Really cool and retro. Even though this team isn't at the top in the technical side of things, they look so good doing the program and it's very entertaining and effective.

I've liked almost all of their programs through the years (pretty sure that Christopher Dean still does all their choreography). The ragtime one they did a couple years ago still ranks as one of my favorites from all the freedances that season.

 

[casken]

Well the two FD I like which are a bit different are Popova/Mozgov. I love the dramatic and they are a little rough around the edges but it's different. Also Guinard/Fabbri La la land.

Same. G&F look the best overall of everyone I've seen so far this season, and P&M have really original connecting holds, transitions, lifts, etc. I like the old school Russian intensity they bring to the dance as well.

 

[cocotaffy]

Talking about programs we like so far this early in the season, I thought I would compile the different performances in the Challenger Series. It makes it easier to catch up for those of us who couldn't watch everything live. There are already quite a lot as you can see. I may have missed some so don't hesitate to add.
Also talking about the prevalence of a certain style(s), watching back to back might prove interesting to see if some trend(s) clearly emerges.

Teodora MARKOVA / Simon DAZE BUL RD / FD

Marie-Jade LAURIAULT / Romain LE GAC FRA FD
Julia WAGRET / Pierre SOUQUET FRA RD / FD
Adelina GALAYAVIEVA / Louis THAURON FRA RD / FD (the FD is banned in my country so who knows where else !)

Haley SALES / Nikolas WAMSTEEKER CAN RD / FD
Molly LANAGHAN / Dmitre RAZGULAJEVS CAN RD / FD
Carolane SOUCISSE / Shane FIRUS CAN RD / FD
Kaitlyn WEAVER / Andrew POJE CAN RD / FD
Laurence FOURNIER BEAUDRY/Nikolaj SORENSEN RD FD (last season's FD with some changes)


Emily Lauren MONAGHAN / Ilias FOURATI HUN RD / FD
Hanna JAKUCS / Alessio GALLI HUN RD / FD

Misato KOMATSUBARA / Tim KOLETO JPN RD / FD

Christina CARREIRA / Anthony PONOMARENKO USA RD / FD
Madison HUBBELL / Zachary DONOHUE USA RD / FD
Karina MANTA / Joseph JOHNSON USA RD / FD
Rachel PARSONS / Michael PARSONS USA RD / FD
Lorraine MCNAMARA / Quinn CARPENTER USA RD / FD

Katerina BUNINA / German FROLOV EST RD / FD

Juulia TURKKILA / Matthias VERSLUIS FIN RD / FD

Robynne TWEEDALE / Joseph BUCKLAND GBR RD / FD
Lilah FEAR / Lewis GIBSON GBR RD / FD

Chiara CALDERONE / Pietro PAPETTI ITA RD / FD
Charlene GUIGNARD / Marco FABBRI ITA RD / FD
Carolina MOSCHENI / Andrea FABBRI ITA RD / FD
Jasmine TESSARI / Francesco FIORETTI ITA RD / FD

Sara HURTADO / Kirill KHALIAVIN ESP RD / FD
Olivia SMART / Adrian DIAZ ESP RD / FD

Victoria MANNI / Carlo ROETHLISBERGER SUI RD / FD

Anna KUBLIKOVA / Yuri HULITSKI BLR RD / FD

Katharina MÜLLER / Tim DIECK GER RD / FD

Betina POPOVA / Sergey MOZGOV RUS RD / FD
Victoria SINITSINA / Nikita KATSALAPOV RUS RD / FD
STEPANOVA / BUKIN RUS FD
Anastasia SHPILEVAYA/Grigory SMIRNOV RUS RD / FD

Hong CHEN / Zhuoming SUN CHN RD / FD
Shiyue WANG / Xinyu LIU CHN RD / FD