Are Evgenia & Alina the "Michelle & Tara" of 2018?

Tinami Amori

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Now i am waiting for Norwegian fans, who have not seen their country's lady skaters win in a few decades, come in and say.... "but Sonja won her first Worlds when she was 14 and half... back in 1927...".
 

Meoima

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I don't think Medvedeva's PCS are overrated the way Zagtova's are.
IMO, Medvedeva's only problem is her bad jumps done with hip and shoulders.
She is not a natural jumper and it will be more and more difficult for her with ages.
Anyway, she is a super skater, very fast, good flow over the ice.

Zagitova on the other hand have probably better jumps than Medvedeva, but as Medvedeva, she doesn't have much power in her jumps. I don't how it will evolve. And she is slow and sometimes her flow seems labored.
Her PCS are way too high !

JMHO, of course ;)
Medvedeva started as a very slow skater. She has improved her skating skills drastically and has become light on the ice. Her speed is remarkably better compared to 2 years ago. Even when she was slow, I think her basic stroking was fine.
Zagitova and her bending waist though... and she is very slow, never move out of the fancam frame.
 

analia

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People don't seem to realize under the current code of points Alina Zagitova is absolutely maxing out two programs without 3A or above. Trusova is the only one with a loop combo among Eteri's juniors, as well as a quad. Technically she is the only person who can beat Zagitova in the future. Kostornaya is wonderful and all, but without a loop combo she doesn't stand a chance and will continue to lose to Trusova. The day a 3lutz(flip)+3t combo can win it all is over.
 

montrealsurfa

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They are IMO and to be honest I really think they are further ahead of the field than Tara and Michelle were in 98. Remember someone like Irina nearly won the LP of the 97 worlds and didnt even skate her absolute best, while Tara imparticular had. I always thought they were a small shot of atleast someone beating out Tara for silver in 98. I dont see anyway Med. and Zag. are not gold and silver in some order at the Games. It would require a totally clean Kostner and an uncharacteristic bad outing from one of them, and even one of those is unlikely, let alone both happening at once.

I just hope the Europeans are not a bad omen and it is Medvedeva on top and not Zagitova. Medvedeva is a much better skater and deserves the Olympic title much more. I would also feel bad for Zagitova at some of the hating she might get if she wins over a clean Medvedeva at the Games.
 

Meoima

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People don't seem to realize under the current code of points Alina Zagitova is absolutely maxing out two programs without 3A or above. Trusova is the only one with a loop combo among Eteri's juniors, as well as a quad. Technically she is the only person who can beat Zagitova in the future. Kostornaya is wonderful and all, but without a loop combo she doesn't stand a chance and will continue to lose to Trusova. The day a 3lutz(flip)+3t combo can win it all is over.
Zagitova is just 15. Are you sure she will be able to land fully rotated 3lz3lo at the age of 18? Same for other girls.
 

snoopy

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Zagitova has the makings of becoming an international star. She has an effervescence. It might partly be her youth but even so, if she wins I think she will be very popular.
 

becca

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True. But Lip, Sot, Rad, Pogo and Tuk didn’t continue skating the same and still get surpassed. The Russian sausage machine spews these kids out and tosses them away when they’ve stopped being useful. It’s a sweat shop and I cringe every time someone holds it up as an ideal.

I don't like the term sweatshop, when there are real sweatshops out there. Its not Russia's fault that only three girls can go to Worlds/Olympics at a time. And puberty can naturally be an issue for many skaters....This isn't Russia's fault either.
 

shady82

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People don't seem to realize under the current code of points Alina Zagitova is absolutely maxing out two programs without 3A or above. Trusova is the only one with a loop combo among Eteri's juniors, as well as a quad. Technically she is the only person who can beat Zagitova in the future. Kostornaya is wonderful and all, but without a loop combo she doesn't stand a chance and will continue to lose to Trusova. The day a 3lutz(flip)+3t combo can win it all is over.

Doing a loop combination should not be all that matters. Kostornaia, while doing easier jumps, should be getting higher jump GOEs and is as good a spinner as Zagitova. It goes without saying that in every other way, she is far superior to Zagitova. Rika Kihira is already doing 3axel in short, and 3axel-3toe+3axel in long, and is better than Zagitova in every PCS category except perhaps transitions.

It seems like Tutberidze uses each student as an 'experiment' to up the technical ante. With Medvedeva it was partial backloading and bonus features. With Zagitova it was 100% backloading. With Trusova it's the quad. Unfortunately, it resulted in some terribly constructed programs for Zagitova (i.e. it's painfully obvious the footwork in Don Quixote is used to kill time until the second half). This year, she seemed to be doing a way better job at creating well-constructed backloaded programs for her juniors, the one back-loaded program I don't like so much being Panenkova's LP. Of course with Trusova, thankfully Eteri doesn't make the poor girl backload her quad salchow. :lol:

Alina seems like a likable girl and as with every skater, she has her strengths and weaknesses. But I can confidently say she is the most overmarked ladies skater in the past 15 years.
 

aftershocks

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Just because I agree that neither Russian can match MK's artistry doesn't mean I don't also realize I've drunk the Kwan-aide

I'm sure it went down very tasty then. :p There's always the buzz & hype when you keep winning, and then the clueless media guff. So often media don't get it right when they try to opine on figure skating. The thing about Kween is that she was always better than the bit of hype thrown around, plus she had to keep proving herself beyond anything that had ever been seen before her fame actually grew to where it took on a life of its own. She was a legend in her own time, and that's no hype. There were always those in the media and in the skating community who were looking for someone who could beat Kween though, so she received a lot of critical flack and a lot of obstacles too which she overcame with grace, style and courage. True champions know not to mistake hype for their actual abilities, nor to ever become complacent about winning.

Vash01 was saying Evgenia was superior to Carolina artistically at around ages 17-18

I would agree that Carolina developed her artistry over time. She was all gawky long legs with speed she didn't know what to do with when she was a teenager. Anyway I said in my original post that Carolina has come a very long way in more respects than one. It took Carolina about 5 or 6 years to come into her own, and then she had to face some setbacks, but she continued to grow artistically.

It's a matter of taste and opinion regarding Evgenia. I don't think she is that skilled artistically. She's graceful with nice lines and a budding elegance that has yet to mature, but the overdramatics do not do her any favors IMHO. She needs to be in a different profession (actor, mime artist, rhythmic gymnast perhaps; she'd probably be lights out as the lady circus performer on horseback :D). :gallopin1

Alina seems like a likable girl and as with every skater, she has her strengths and weaknesses. But I can confidently say she is the most overmarked ladies skater in the past 15 years.

There's absolutely no question that Alina is way overmarked, but this trend began in the lead-up to the last Olympics with Lipnitskaya! Eteri lucked upon the perfect vehicle for Julia L that camouflaged her performance weaknesses. Russian political game did its part too. And the rest, as we know, is history. Having found what she felt was the right method of attack, Eteri continued to maneuver her new phenom models with the camouflage thematic, to the point where it has become way too much over-packaging which actually hides some of these young ladies' true talent. Alina is all peacock feathers and trouncing around and back-loading jumps, it's really hard to see who she is underneath it all. If we did, her weaknesses might be more evident too, but that would then give her a chance to learn and to grow at a seasoning pace instead of being quickly anointed and rushed straight to the top, only to topple in a few years as her character development, personal maturation and skating growth try to catch up.

To be honest, it was the over-rewarding of Oksana Baiul in 1994, that can be cited as starting the trend that is now in full swing.

As far as Alina being the most overmarked, I would have to say that's relative to how the scores tend to rise in general, so comparatively all of the overdone baby ballerinas have received tech and PCS out the wazoo, not always relevant to their talent. In fact, Radionova has always had tech issues and posture issues, but when she first came up she too was fawned over and given gift scores; and similarly Pogo had many weaknesses (although she slowly improved her skating, but not her mental approach); also Sotskova is pretty and can jump, but she's rather robotic and completely bland. Liza T always had wonderful jumping ability, but her presentation skills have waxed and waned, and that's mostly waned. Mesmerizing artistry is not Liza's strong suit. Quirky Leonova has always been more interesting to watch than the best of the Russian baby phenoms.

ETA: Sotnikova IMO was actually the most artistic, but she too was rushed in her development and over-rewarded.
 
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berthesghost

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Caro had me at hello and I'll take those Bambi legs over Med's Shields&yarnelle "artistry" any day! The '18 Oly drinking game will be: take a shot of vodka every time a Russian lady does a ' tano-anything, and we'll all be 3 sheets to the wind before you can say " cop whoring your way to gold" :lol:
 

aftershocks

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usova94gold

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I agree with the poster who said Michelle is probably artistically superior to Medvedeva and Zagitova, Zagitova especialy, Medvedeva is a much closer call. And not only Kwan, but Yu Na Kim, Asada, and a few others. However both Russian girls utterly destroy Kwan and some of these others when it comes to both jumps and spins. So it is silly for an yone to imply these girls are somehow inferior to the champions who have come just before, especialy considering how young they are. And none of these others could dream of touching the scores they are hitting under IJS even in their prime. Only Yu Na Kim could come close, and even she couldnt even hit 230 with the skates of her life in Vancouver, and couldnt even beat Sotnitkova, who is a far weaker skater than both Medvedeva and Zagitova, so she probably wouldnt want anything to do with the Russian girls in the form they are in today, not even on home ice in Pyeongcheng.

To the thread title they are definitely the Kwan and Lipinski of 98 in terms of how far they are ahead of the rest of the field going into the Games. Tara in fact looked much more vurnerable than any Russian girl, didnt she even lose events to Hubert and Szewcenko that year, and Slutskaya had beaten her many times in the 15 months before the Games too, and Butyrskaya once or twice. Zagitova bombed the short program in almost every outing this year and is unbeaten and Medvedeva has been lapping the field for almost 3 whole years now, minus Zagitova and her emergence this year.
 

berthesghost

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What? Don’t compare the 15 and 18 yo to the 15 and 17 yo from the past because the 15 and 18 yo are so young? But yes, do criticize the 15 yo from the past for losing comps when she was 14 and nobody that young can even compete in seniors anymore? Wtf
 

joubertelegant

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Not really. There were still other girls with a shot at gold or silver in 98. There are no other girls with a shot at gold or silver this time but Alina and Evgenia. I cannot remember any year 2 were as far as ahead as this. 98 was probably the most before this year, and even that one you could imagine people like Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, or Szewcenko beating 1 or both of the 2 favorites possibly. Not so this time.
 

ohashibiles

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Michelle and even Tara were much more complete skaters than Evgenia and Alina currently are.

Tara. No way. In addition to weaker jumps, she had much weaker spins, spirals, and footwork than both the Russian girls, even considering the eras. Artistry is more subjective, some areas Tara was probably better and some weaker, but no she is not more complete.
 

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